Spain is pulling out

[clasper]

Originally posted by nbk:
[qb]
This war is about oil, no matter how much you have been brainwashed otherwise. [/qb]

You are not completely wrong here, as the war has something to do with oil. Because of US demand, and Mid-East reserves, oil is a lever that the fundamentalists have chosen to use in their fight against the infidel. If we all converted to renewable solar and wind power tomorrow, we would remove that lever, and that would be a setback for the fundamentalists, but they would find another lever.

As has been pointed out earlier, the root cause of the conflict goes much further back than US oil dependance, or even the discovery of the first oil well. What does a several-hundred year old claim to Iberian territory have to do with oil?

 

[Infanteer]

What does a several-hundred year old claim to Iberian territory have to do with oil?

Or a landlocked, mountainous country in central Asia?

 

[Gunnar]

Okay. Thread‘s over. Godwin‘s Law:

Godwin‘s Law prov. [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin‘s Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin‘s Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.

But as long as we‘re on the topic: Advocating the extermination of an evil is not wrong. Destroying evil is a good thing. Destroying people who want to kill women and children is a good thing. Destroying all Muslims (or Jews, as the case may be) with no regard for objective standards of what may make them evil people (e.g., Jew A is a Murderer, Jew B is a rabbi who helps his community, Muslim A works hard, believes in the Koran and tries to raise his family, Muslim B is a terrorist) is the issue. Not destruction per se.

As long as we‘re on the topic, you might be just the same as a Nazi yourself, because, after all, the Nazis ate sausages....If you eat sausages, then you‘re just the same as they are! Right?

 

[Jarnhamar]

I agree with you NBK. The Nazi‘s, just like other groups out there use fighting evil as an excuse to further their goals, whatever they are. When i got married the padre talked about fighting evil and the hardships on marrage because of all the evil in the world. i didn‘t associate him witht he nazi party but others could i supose.

I spoke about fighting evil. Exterminating it. Going after the evil doers as bush would say. I‘m not sure if you think thats evil or just a cheap justification for whatever. The nazi‘s were fighting evil, the allies were fighting evil. Al quaida is fighting evil along with the guys in palastine and israel. Everyone is fighting evil today. Whos to say who is right. Who can tell.

When the last time you saw a Canadian soldier blow themselves up in a market, gas women and children, blow up a bus? I have a pretty good idea what evil is and im going to continue to fight it and support anyone else who does.

 

[1feral1]

I am at my whits end thinking about this whole topic, and its a forum inwhich we spew out our opinions and emotions on this very much so currrent affair, which effects us all in some way.

You have read my posts and know where I stand on it. Its not about oil, its about a new type of war in which no matter who you are, or where you are, as long as you continue to live and have western values, as long as you continue to live freely in our society, you, your grandmother, your kids, and your wife are going to be targeted by a fundemantal form of Islam who value death as we all value our lives, and the lives of our kids.

Sadly when the bombs start going off in your own country, and the innocent are vapourised on the 6.00 news, then maybe the ‘sheep‘ here will realise we are right.

Its good to see that fine healthy red blooded Canadians on this site have the balls to stand up to whats right, and do the right thing by defending our way of life, and our culture, while the spineless (yes backbones are on sale at K mart, BTW) sit back, and whinge about USA policy, and why Canada and other countries should sit back and watch, and stay out. "Evil prospers when good men do nothing".

I can sum up by saying all war is insane, vial, and quite sickening, but there is a time we must all stand our ground to ensure that terrorism will not come to our shores, and countless people be murdered by the blind hatred of an extreme end of a religion, who infact see all here as infidels.

So, for the bleeding hearted granola eating tree huggering do gooders (who cant or wont or refuse see the truth on whats going on, and who seem to believe left wing propaganda in some newspaper), if you want, fly to Pakistan, or Afghanistan, and give out tea and buiscuts to OBL and his murderous friends, and the rest of radical Islam, as I am sure they and they and Mr Kalashnikov will be witing for you smiling.

Meanwhile as our allied forces are deep in Afghanistan, Iraq and other not so nice places, these whingers (you know who you are) will sit back, and complain about what they see on the news, and maybe go to a march against the war this weekend.

In fact the terror threat is very real against western nations, AQ has named Australia, and as of yesterday, AQ was quoted "the black brigades of death are at your gate, you lackeys of the USA have a lesson to learn".

In happier times our governments let these people into our countries to establish new lives and live in peace and harmony, now the rightwingers of their faith have turned on their adopted countries, and want to crush us, and establish thir faith by force on us.

Simply what they have created at our expense is satellite countries of their own in ours, and in these places rise the toughts and deeds of radical Islam. In time we are in for heaps of trouble.

I am sure Canada too is on their list of hate, and somewhere in some greasy flat in TO, Montreal, or Vancouver, a sinister plot/plan, or operation is being rehearsed somewhow by a group of so called ‘martyrs in waiting‘, who see you and your kids as good soft fleshy targets, and their own kids as suicide bombers.

In Israel, a recent female suicide bomber who killed herself and others had said in an interview before hand, I have wanted to be a martyr since I was 13, and I want my body parts to fly thru the air and kill as many as possible", this coming from a woamna and mother of two small kids.

It goes to show ya how bent they are, and why something has to be done qbout it.

So for the supporters of ther defence of our nations and our way of life on here, I salute you, and for the whingers, well you should all be ashamed of yourselves, as you are a disgrace in my eyes.

But, thank God having your whinge is a right, which was paid for by the blood of a generation of young men 60 yrs ago. So if you value this freedom, maybe you should take a moment to see how lucky you are to have it, and maybe never take it for granted, as with your current sheeply attitudes you may just loose it.

Regards to everyone,

Wes

 

[Brad Sallows]

>This war is about oil, no matter how much you have been brainwashed otherwise. Not for greedy businessmen to profit off of, but to secure Mideast oil reserves for the US market, as it is common knowledge that the cheap, accessible oil reserves on this planet are due to start becoming rarer within the next 20 years.

By the same token, I invite you to develop your own capability to reason. Ask yourself how much of your opinion is your own, and how much is adopted from people who have no credentials as experts on the subject at hand but are thought wise because they are merely popular or prominent in an unrelated field. For the money spent to prosecute a war - and the estimates were $50-100B before the fact - why didn‘t the US just offer half the cash and guarantee to have sanctions removed since it was in their practical power to do so? It would have dramatically outbid the French, or anyone else.

What makes you confident that more efficient methods of extracting oil will not be developed (the existence of large reserves is not in doubt), if not alternate sources of energy for transportation?

Over the long term, always bet on technology to solve the problems you think are approaching, and never project current trends too far into the future. There will always be a discontinuity in the curve.

 

[1feral1]

Brad,

You have your opinion (and a few agree with you), and I have mine (and others agree with me also), and if you believe what you think, its ok, but we can agree on one common thing, and that is to disagree.

Its all about a hatred against the west for the values we live by (not the views seen by extreme Islam in their interpetation of the Koran). Thats what the excuse was for the Bali bombings, along with our liberation of East Timor, our involvement in the ‘Stan and Iraq.

Why don‘t you mention your theory to my neighbours down the road, who lost a daughter in the bombings, and see what they have to say.

That was all about having westerners leave the island, to stop the western culture from polluting theirs as they see it. They have a seething hatred for anything west, from alchol to dresses, our music, our respect for women, and what they can do in the west, our overall culture to our general way of life.

East timor had a Christian minority, and the bad guys were muslims, they were forced out, murdered priests nuns, and many others, destroying churches and local infrastructure. Schools, power comms, shops, homes all gone, scorched earth. even cutting peoples hands off at sea, and dumping them into the water, so they would drown and the sharks ate the eveidence. Thousands disappeared while back in Canada you ate pizza and drank coke.

Sad, because Bali is a Hindu population, which was infiltrated by Muslims from a neighbouring island. There is over 16,000 islands in Indonesia, of which about 13,000 are populated. About 280,000,000 muslims live in Indonesia.

What the bombers got in return was the income robbed from the hotels, cafes, and shops. Mass unemployment because no westerners want to go there anymore for fear of another attack.

recently when some Australians tried to return for a holiday, they were cornered by extremists, and had matches flicked at them immatating the 89 Australians who were killed, some burning to death. They were spat upon, and verbally abused.

Presently the hotels are half empty at best, and the population suffers because of the actions of a the extreme factions who now live silently with the Hindus. There is little assistance from the govt and the poor people live in fear themselves. Corruption runs rampant with police and officials.

What about the extremists in Egypt who attack western tour busses, etc, some by AK, others by grenades. Is that about oil? Its about anti-western culture again fed by extreme values.

Name me one Muslim country which lives in harmony and is in total peace? Which accepts the west as it is.

So does the Islamic terrorists who fight in the Philipinnes, killing civvys and destroying churches about killing Christian philipinos and oil. yes on teh Christians, and no on the oil, as its about establishing a fundimentalist extreme Islamic culture and state, as it is in Indonesia, etc.

The Indonesian govt is fearful of even prosecuting extremeists for fear it may fan an epidemic of fundimentalists, causing a civil war.

I live in the region, and I know. The Australian war against terror has got nothing to do with the price of crude oil. Nothing. Its a war against a culture and religion of extremists.

Australians are proud of what they have done to save a local neighbour. We fought the Japs on Timor, and many of our Diggers were PoWs til 1945 at the hands of a ruthless enemy. Many Timorese assisted our Diggers and saved many, sadlt the japanese killed many locals to put the fear into them.

Thats how it is, and I am not brainwashed by far, but if you want to go ahead thinking that, thats okay Brad.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[winchable]

I can name one country, not that this matters much.
The country of MY family, Oman.

And it‘s not a religion of extremists, it‘s extremists of a religion, the extremists still being the minority.

And please guys this thread is quickly becoming about religion, the one topic people will NEVER agree on, any attempts to do so is the cyber equivalent of taking your head and repeatedly banging it off a wall.

So back to Spain perhaps? Or just let it be.

 

[1feral1]

They might be the minority Che, but they are on the news and are vastly growing in numbers throught the muslim world everday. You cant deny that.

If this extremest defiance is not about religion, than whats it about?

Regards,

Wes

 

[winchable]

It‘s about religion and culture, I would not argue that fact. Being featured on the news is a form of selective coverage, the news media (yeah,yeah evil media etc.) chooses to cover the minority of extremists who blow themselves to bits in the name of God, while largely ignoring the HUGE portion of Muslims who simply want to exist like anyone from the west.
They don‘t cover the vast majority Muslims who teach, who run shops, who are doctors, lawyers and social advocates.
I might not deny that they are featured on the news, and perhaps they are growing, but they are becoming an increasingly isolated sect of Islam.

The general population of Muslims have grown tired, and want peace like anyone else (Islam, it CANNOT be stressed enough, IS a religion of peace, despite extremist interpretation)

While many Muslims might not like many things about the western culture(revealing clothing, drugs, alcohol, pre-marital sex) the majority are not going to war over it.

 

[pte anthony]

I never even read this thread but heres what I think. I hate terrorists OBVIOUSLY I am not the only one with that opinon, but, regardless of religion or ethnicity they are terrorists and are highly motivated well funded and trained individuals working together for a common goal (as twisted as their goal may be but it is a goal none the less). Think about the fact that the election in Spain was to take place a few days after the attack on the train and the opposition was running on the platform that they would bring the troops home. Do you think the attack was just a coincidental **** no it was part of a well organized effort to sway the voting public to vote in a way that would benifit the terrorists and their cause. PS **** religion it divides us all (that is just my opinon) :soldier:

 

[1feral1]

Mate, take 15 mins and comb thru the thread, it has some interesting arguments put forth by ‘both‘ sides, then you make up your mind for yourself.

The attack on Spain was a long time coming, kept secret, well planned and organised, and no doubt to hope that the general populus would emotionally vote the current govt out. Hence a victory for AQ and other Islamic extremists throught the world.

BTW Australia has a fedral election this yr, maybe as ealy as August. USA this yr, and what about Canada? Humm, time will tell, and who knows where the next cowardly atatck will be?

Cheers,

Wes

 

[winchable]

Rumour has it PM is planning on calling an election shortly after the conservatives pick their new leader;

 

[1feral1]

Che,

Even the Muslim leader of Australia, know as the Mufti, has condoned the use of suicide bombers to get their point accross, and has condemmed the USA and its allies for actions in the ME, post 11 Sep..

Recently at a visit to Lebannon he spoke of Hezbellah, saying it was an organization which is truly Lebanese, and speaks for all of Lebannon. And he is supposed to be a moderate.

Shiek El Hilally, was at one time almost removed freom Australia for his radicalism, but somehow made a deal with the Keating govt for a residency visa. Thats 20yrs ago, and he still needs a translator.

He was recently arrested in the suburb of Wiley Park (for driving without a license and an unregistered vehicle), a dangerous muslim ghetto in Sydney, were police INT said he was packing an unregistered handgun. He refused to be searched, and more police were called in as Muslim finatics swarmed and threatened the police to let him go.

A dangerous situation was at hand. The police numbering about 30, and a crownd of over 100 gathered, chanting and acting like something you would see in Palestine. Pretty scazry. Somehow the police got him, and took him in, and things defused, but its hard to comprehend, that the mentality such as this exists in Australia.

So what do you think of that? its a giant time bomb here, and anyone would be crazy to drive thru these places. We drove thru in an Army convoy enroute to Singleton, and did we ever get soem serious bad looks. If there would have been one or two vehicles, we may have had some serious problems. Guns and drugs are rampant in these places.

Cheers,

wes

 

[1feral1]

Here is another incident. Its the law here in NSW to have a fishing license, swarms of muslims on weekends go to some great places, one being Darook Park, Gunamatta Bay in Cronulla, on Sydneys southern beaches.

The muslims force the mainstream Aussies out with threats and intimadation. Some have been stabbed, had guns pointed at them, our wives and girlfriends insulted for their dress, and other not so nice stuff.

The park rangers wont even go in and check for fishing licenses for fear of being attacked, and also because of complaint of racism for interfering with a large group of ehtnics, as they would be saying "why are you singling us out". Hundreds can be seen fishing, some even in swimming areas, with no regard for the law, yet alone the people trying to swim.

I was there with my girlfriend, and we actually had to leave for fear of our safety. We were being followed, and had insults hurled at us. She was wearing a nice beachy outfit, and she was actually scared, and said she never wants to go back.

By Sunday evening they pack up and go back to the ghettos. If this is moderate Islam, I would hate to see teh radical side of it.

Can you explain their behaviour. many brag how their parent killed Lebanese Christians during the war in Beriut, and are proud of it. Mate, frankly I dont want people of this calibre living in my country, yet alone in my city.

So they dont need a license and again they are above our law, using thie minority as a shield and run free do do almost anything they want. do you think thats fair? This is what happens when a power base is formed. Recently in Melbourne an elected muslim wanted to ban pork products from an entire suburb! needl;ess to say it did not go thru, but imagine the arrogance to even propose such a thing!

cheers,

Wes

 

[winchable]

Let me say something about Muslim leaders; they are appointed by themselves, there is no real hierarchy in Islam like you would find in another religion (bishops, cardinals, priests) any learned person (learned about religion,not neccesarily about politics etc.) can become a spiritual leader. My neighbour is a Masjid, if I brushed up on my Qu‘ranic verse, fixed my terrible arabic which I haven‘t spoken since a child, studied the Shariah for a year, and finally went on my pilgramage or Hajj, I could be a leader too.

Chances are you couldn‘t tell me how many muslim leaders condemn suicide attacks, because you will not hear about them in the news. They still vastly outnumber the few who cling to this notion of radicalism that only drives a rift between them and the layman.

I can‘t comment on the situation with the police and the muslim "fanatics", because I don‘t know enough about it. Give me an hour or so and I‘ll have more on that, but this is the first I‘ve heard of that.

In general I hate discussing religion here, I have to defend my religion everyday in real life to people who are more bent on hating Muslims than anyone is in here. It grows tiring, like I said, debating religion is as rewarding as banging your head off a wall.

Edit-Now it‘s beginning to burn;
What would you have me do? Defend the actions of my entire race/religion? I can‘t speak for the actions of Muslims everywhere, and I won‘t be held responsible and I won‘t allow the majority of my race and religion to be held responsible for the actions of a few.
I can only tell you that despite your experiences, it is still a minority.

 

[1feral1]

Che, sadly he has a very large following, and a group of radical secuirrty who constantly swarm around him, like a bunch of really p_i$$ed off hornets or wasps.

BTW, I wont be editing anything. Facts are facts, and people deserve the right to know them.

regards,

Wes

 

[1feral1]

Try www.johnlaws.com.au - look for ‘mufti‘ on the site and here a commentary on his trip to the ME.

Also search for australia mufti or ustralia muslim gangs, australia muslim crime

I could give a stuff, for anyone condemming me of being a RC, or a christain for that matter. I put my country first long long lonn before I would put any religion.

Regards,

Wes

 

[winchable]

I didn‘t ask you to edit;
That was me editing my own statement after reading yours posted while I was writing mine, the many subtelties of the internet.
After reading more about the "Mufti" I‘d condemn him as I imagine many Muslims would, he isn‘t labeled as a moderate either, he is quite radical and is far from respectable. A large portion of Muslims in Australia have challenged his status; last I checked there were 300,000 Muslims living in Australia, I find it hard to believe that a majority of them, or ever will be, radical extremists.

There are hundreds of stories, personal accounts, of Muslims being the target of minority bashing. My point? if we stand here slinging stories about how bad everyone is, we‘re still banging our head off of a wall.

 

[1feral1]

Che, fair enough. I am just trying to get my point accross, and some facts out in the open to you, but do check out my ammended searches FYI.

Yes there is almost 300,000 mulsims in Sydney alone. I dont know of any being singled out for attack here, but I do know there is a tonne of tension between us and them. That too is a sad fact, as it would be nice if we could all get along, and be as one, but that wont happen.

with all the unrest here in Sydney, I have asked for my next posting to be in queensland in 05.

Cheers,

Wes