Spain is pulling out

[Spr.Earl]

Now lets all just suck back and reload and calm down.
Many of you have made some very good point‘s toward‘s this discussion.

I‘m going to provoke some thought here.
Think before you answer.

Now if yesterday we knew what we know today i.e no unconventional weapon‘s,the lies ,ok the half truth‘s from Bush,the US‘s conection‘s to Iraq via the father re. CIA,US support of Saddam against Iran,Exile Iraqi intel which is proving to be questionable.
I could go on what has come to light over the last little while and there is lot‘s of info coming out now.
Would the U.S. and the Nation‘s it got to go along with them would have declared war?
Would these Countries had the support of their people?

As a side note.
Should the U.S. finished the job in Afg. first before Iraq?

 

[Franko]

On your side note Spr. Earl...the US is still in Afganistan...albeit not in the huge numbers they once had. They are slowley cleaning up their mess, and Canada is helping out.

I‘m not an expert on international affairs or not even up to date on the attacks by the Basque seperatists...so I‘m just going to sit back and read the replies.

The debate is going pretty good troops, some rough spots though.

Sorry to hear about your friend Wes...the *******s.

Regards

 

[Jarnhamar]

This is a very imformative post i‘m enjoying reading it.

"They hate us because we are not like them. We will not bow to their laws, nor accept their rule. In their mind, we convert or die."

I think that hits the nail on the head. Some animals are bred to be vicious and attack. So are these people.

I think Religion is the most vicious WMD of them all. The minute anyone from any religion tries to justify using violence to get their point across or back up some kind of ideal they become hippocrits in my mind.
"They use suicide bombers because thats their only option left" Thats BS. There is NO excuse for targeting innocent civilians. They don‘t care about furthering their goals or getting noticed. They kill people because they thinks it gives them little points.

Why do terrorists hate us? Becase they are bred to. If you put a baby in a small room and they grow up in that room it becomes their whole universe. They cannot comprehend life outside of their little box. Terrorists are the same way.

Terrorisim is like cancer. Theres a million reasons why it starts. You can either sit back and let it eat you or you can cut the cancer out.

Of course theres alternitive treatments but those costs lots of money, someone else is getting rich off it and at best its a guess if it will work or not. I‘m the first one to preach alllife is sacred, make peace not war etc.. But there comes a time when all else fails and the side excerting the most force wins.

 

[xFusilier]

Maybe, the PM elect in Spain is doing the famous political trick of doing "Unless A happens, I will do B". While the participation of the UN in the political process in Iraq is not a sure thing, I think that what the PM elect is trying to do is have his cake and eat it too. I.E. he carters to his constituency immediately by saying "right, if the UN is not in by June we‘re outta here".

Come June, don‘t be supprised that the UN is involved in the Iraqi political process or that you hear from Spain that UN participation is imminent so they are not going to pull out.

As for the whole this was a deliberate attempt by Al-Qaeda to influence the Spanish elections issue. Who knows, the effects of the attack could have been just as easily the opposite, to what occured. The bottom line is Al-Qaeda‘s primary aim in the train bombings was not influence the Spanish elections, it was to kill as many people as possible. Any influence that that attack may or may not have had on the Spanish General Election was simply gravy.

That being said, as we draw closer and closer to November, I expect to see more and more attacks on US troops in Iraq, and more and more attacks on US citizens abroad.

 

[Spr.Earl]

Originally posted by Franko:
[qb] On your side note Spr. Earl...the US is still in Afganistan...albeit not in the huge numbers they once had. They are slowley cleaning up their mess, and Canada is helping out.

I‘m not an expert on international affairs or not even up to date on the attacks by the Basque seperatists...so I‘m just going to sit back and read the replies.

The debate is going pretty good troops, some rough spots though.

Sorry to hear about your friend Wes...the *******s.

Regards [/qb]

Franco the side note question was
"Should the U.S. have commited total resource‘s to Afg. and finnished the job there first before going into Iraq?"

My post is from an objective point of view to create a unheated discussion.

 

[Spr.Earl]

Ghost you posted:

This is a very imformative post i‘m enjoying reading it.

"They hate us because we are not like them. We will not bow to their laws, nor accept their rule. In their mind, we convert or die."

I think that hits the nail on the head. Some animals are bred to be vicious and attack. So are these people.


Well I‘ll tell you somthing a true Muslim is not of the sort.
At the young age of 19 I was in Borneo on a Norwegian ship loading hard wood‘s and we were in the boonies and there was a village we could see so a few a of us whent ashore and walked about."I have alway‘s repsected every one‘s religion".We saw this old man sitting on his porch.I said "Salam Ala Come" he turned around and "Ela com salam" and asked me if I was of the faith?
I said no,I‘m christian and he askd my how came to know of his faith,I‘m a seaman and learn these things.
That old man gave me coffee and some snack‘s and I asked him how learned english (through the dutch) and he told me how they where treated badly the Dutch and we talked about many thing‘s even our own religions.
I had a very nice afternoon that day and I take umbridge to your above post.

Your above post is a man of ignorence.

Learn about true Islam first before you make comment‘s like you did.

Read the Koran it‘s say‘s the same thing‘s as our Bible does and more.

For one Mohamad said repect the other two religion‘s as we do ours i.e Jews and Christian‘s.
Yes I have read the Koran and still have my copy of it.

 

[K. Ash]

THis as been a terrific discussion so far.

All I have to say is: I think Islamic extremist‘s ultimate goal is for western society (the freeworld) to cease. THey want us to conform to their ideals. And if it means throwing a few punches back and knockin those f@#kers back on their asses to stop that from happening...so be it.

 

[Jarnhamar]

My friend i mentioned terrorist, not muslim/islam/ black or white. I can see how you may have thought i was spicifically targeting muslims but i was not, believe me. To me anyone who is blinded by religion or culture into taking the lives of others for whatever purpose is a terrorist. They spread their word through terror from bombing a market in isreal to bombing an abortion clinic in ottawa to driving spikes into trees so loggers who are working to put food on the table hit them and lose an eye, if their lucky.

Theres white christians brought up in the heart of the USA who hate "us" just as much as in the heart of Iraq, as i see it. i define "us" as people who are accepting of other religions and willing to accept someone elses culture and work with them towards peace etc.. I define "them" as close minded people who think their religion is right when all others are wrong. Thats stupid and close minded on so many levels its not even funny. It‘s easy to lump muslims with terrorists out of ignorance but having spent a lot of time working with muslim soldiers i know it‘s just not the case.

 

[Gunnar]

Muslim/Christian....

That is why I was careful to say "terrorist" in my own posting. Because the same could be said of the IRA, ETA, Shining Path, etc., etc....

In any case, if you have a PDA, you can download the Koran (and the Bible) for free at http://www.memoware.com . There are a number of good books available for free on that site, including the Havamal, a number of Norse sagas, Sun Tzu‘s Art of War, Machiavelli‘s Art of War, Von Clausewitz‘s On War, etc. Good reading in the field, and as portable as your PDA.

I don‘t find that the Koran reads as easily as the Bible, but you only need to read it once to see what hypocrites these so-called Muslims are. The Prophet (peace be upon him) has already said that the "real jihad" is inside.

 

[Engineer Corporal]

"I think you should turn in your kit mate. Forum or not, and whatever your opinion is, you should hang your head in shame.

In the real world in theatre, with your attitude, I reckon you would be a good candidate for a serious fragging, so keep that body aromour on, and sleep soundly, wrapped in your kevlar blanket"

Funny post wes, so your saying that someone with a different view of the current situation. I.E. me, doesn‘t deserve to be in the military. How the **** does that make sense? So anyone who doesn‘t jump on the "let‘s kill the islamic terrorists bandwagon" or someone who questions "George Bush‘s policies" is all of a sudden a ***** and is stupid? I‘m sure your answer will be yes. Just because I‘m against the war in Iraq does‘nt make me a bad soldier. Do you think everyone in the canadian military likes the war in Iraq? Umm no, so they should turn in their kit as well? So as not to impede anyone having a good clean war of two sides and stfu and kill something?
People who rock the boat should‘nt be looked down apon. They should be listened to maybe something they say makes sense. Obviously you don‘t think so. That‘s ok, your opinion and all. Some of you guys should really open your minds just a bit. Not every islamic person wants you dead! If you think so then god help you. I only hope that someone maybe only one person read my posts and it made them stop and think for a moment. No need for personal attacks wes. I have great respect for you being in the canadian military and then australian and I‘m sure serving both with dedication.

 

[Infanteer]

...

 

[muskrat89]

Ummm.. Infanteer - he was quoting Wes

 

[Engineer Corporal]

Yes infanteer, I beleive wes has seen alot of real world theatre. Read the post first!.....

 

[George Wallace]

Originally posted by Engineer Corporal:
[qb] ....so your saying that someone with a different view of the current situation. I.E. me, doesn‘t deserve to be in the military. How the **** does that make sense? So anyone who doesn‘t jump on the "let‘s kill the islamic terrorists bandwagon" or someone who questions "George Bush‘s policies" is all of a sudden a ***** and is stupid? I‘m sure your answer will be yes. Just because I‘m against the war in Iraq does‘nt make me a bad soldier. Do you think everyone in the canadian military likes the war in Iraq? Umm no, so they should turn in their kit as well? So as not to impede anyone having a good clean war of two sides and stfu and kill something?
People who rock the boat should‘nt be looked down apon. They should be listened to maybe something they say makes sense. Obviously you don‘t think so. That‘s ok, your opinion and all. Some of you guys should really open your minds just a bit. Not every islamic person wants you dead! If you think so then god help you. I only hope that someone maybe only one person read my posts and it made them stop and think for a moment. No need for personal attacks wes. I have great respect for you being in the canadian military and then australian and I‘m sure serving both with dedication. [/qb]

We are not talking about every Islamic person, we are talking about Fundamentalist, Extremist, Fanatical Terrorists. A person should be able to recognize what we are debating about here, especially if they are claiming to be a History Major.

As for someone being stupid, I have only seen one person in this thread using the word ‘stupid‘. If that person feels slighted, they shouldn‘t get emotional and start calling others names.

Some have brought up the point that Terrorism is widespread and not only limited to Islamic Extremists, but to other race/etnic groups/religions as well, using the IRA and ETA as examples.

If you have to resort to name calling, then perhaps it is a sign that your POV is faulty and you have to open ‘your‘ mind.

GW

 

[Infanteer]

Ha, who‘s the idiot now!

I will retreat with my tail between my legs, just like the electorate of Spain....

 

[winchable]

To add to what gunnar said previously:

You can pick up the Qu‘ran at the library in Arabic, English, or a combination of the two into one book.

It‘s the minimal required reading before anyone can make a truly informed opinion about anything Islamic (IMO). It‘s not a hard read, but most of the beauty is lost in the translation to English. As a child I had to memorise it in it‘s original Arabic form, it‘s hard to really describe it. If Shakespeare is the most beautiful prose in English, then the Qu‘Ran is supposed to be about 10 Shakespeares.

Anywho, just a momentary interjection; Keep debating, as long as it remains civil it is proving to be an interesting thread.

 

[1feral1]

Not all muslims are terrorists but its a fact, that most terrorists today are infact muslim, and we cannot deny that, as for Badbird,, wow I have been adressed by my sur name!

Listen here "mate", your attitude and the way you worded your postes were simply "TROLLY‘

And if you cant see the truth about Spain caving in, and this seen as a victory and now a propaganda tool for radical Islam, you are blind as a bat.

Take a look at your own words from ‘outside the square‘ and think about what you have said. I dont care how old you are, 22, you say, well it lookes like 12 to me. So dont go attacking me for something you created, I just reacted to a thread troll who words were baiting us to react, as you see I am not the only one arc‘d up over your attitude.


Regards,

Wes

 

[Garry]

A few things:

Religion is a hard thing to argue. Based on faith vice anything really tangible, either you "get it" or you don‘t.

Just for the fun of it, though, take a look at all of the world‘s major religions. They have several things in common, but the one I‘d like to focus on is how the religions direct society. Every single one of the worlds religions give us (mankind/society) a blueprint on how to co-exist peacefully.

Most of every society‘s morals and laws are based on one religion or another. They amplify the religious direction, and are founded in hard learned lessons. Our‘s (Canada‘s) for instance: protect the weak, don‘t screw around your Buds, don‘t chew with your mouth open, hold the door open for gals, I could go on... these are the tenets of our society that most of us learned from our parents...and they keep us all from beating each other to death.

All society‘s have their rules, and they‘re not much different than ours.

Muslims HATE our "decadence". So what? So do I. I abhor the steady slide into pornography, drugs, gambling, violence..... difference is is in how we react. The average guy, black, white, yellow, Christian, Muslim, Bhuddist does what he can to maintain his, and his family‘s moral and living standards. We rely on the word of law, the efforts of our Governemnt and Police to stem the tide of burgeoning societal and Moral collapse.

The Extremists blow things, and people, up.

Unfortunately, the extremists groups you and I in with the "decadent" folk. The aggression is directed against our society, not portions of it.

Fair? nope.

Fact? yup.

Fights on. Time to flee or fight.

I do NOT want the rotten aspect of my society to survive...but I do want my lifestyle, morals, country, and my society to survive.

So, I choose fight.

Trick is to smash the right people, and that is tough to do.....

Making it worse, uncontrolled aggression has a way of snowballing out of control, dragging moderates and those on the sidelines into the fray. Tough to avoid....and tougher to accept.

Cheers-Garry

 

[Duotone81]

Excellent post Garry. When you tear away all the peripherals you‘re left with a reality that you articulated very well.

 

[1feral1]

Engr CPL:

Do you think I like war? NOT, but I do want peace and security for our way of life, and to ensure our kids wont have to fight in another war, or to be mass targeted by some wingnut suicide bomber. Sometimes to secure these things we must fight for our own safety, and self preservation, and for everything we believe in.

Maybe you would paint a different picture if an 11 Sep attack happened in say Toronto or at some Grey Cup in the west.

I hate the war in Iraq, as I have friends there right now, but its all just one piece in a giant jigsaw, and the liberation of Iraq was and is essential if the war gainst terror is to advance.

Being agianst a war is one thing, but not seeming to grasp the concequences if we sit back and do nothing is another.

By the look of things you would rather sit back and see radical Islam praised by Saddam, along with other nasty things which were going on there, with other things currently festering in the radical Islamic world and continuing to grow like a galloping cancer, with us as the intended host.

Meanwhile in Jakarta yesterday Abdu Bashir, leader of JI terrorist org has declared that all allies of the USA and the USA itself will be destroyed as Allah wills it. Thhen laughed about the Bali bombings, saying the bombers were not guilty of any crime.

I think this poor excuse for a man should have have visit from ‘black ops‘, and just disappear.

With a 5,000+ member force of radical extremeists, they are continuing to recruit members from radical Islamic schools throughout Indonesia and the region.

Read on, www.news.com.au www.dailytelegraph.com.au

To top it off, as of yesterday the Indonesian courts are challenging the death sentances of these pi_$$ weak cowards who killed 202 people in Bali, mainly all westerners of which 89 were Australian, and they might have their death sentances quashed, and be walking the streets in just 2 months, and all of this is seen as a victory to the radicals. What does this tell the radicals, it says yes kill as many infidels as you can, and here in Indonesia, we will give you worldwide publicity then set you free in just a matter of months.

Just remember too, that the Bali bombings killed more people than the AQ attack in Spain, including one man from Wynyard Saskatchewan.

You are right, not every muslim wants us dead, its the radical fundimentalists which do, that I can agree to, but thats about it. Sadly the moderate mulsims are in fear, and will not speak against their fight against the west.

Read bewteen the lines, and right or wrong its your brothers in arms who are doing their bit, while you sit back, attacking the US govt and condem their sacrifice towards a safer world for us all.

Maybe what you need is a face to face meeting with the family of someone who was killed on 11 Sep, or the 12 Oct attacks in Bali, not mentioning about speaking to a young wife with ababy on the way, who lost her husband in a recent RPG attack in Baghdad, or speak to an Iraqi man who for the first time in a generation, who can now speak out, and not fear being killed or tortured.

Wait out,

Wes