Spain is pulling out

[clasper]

Originally posted by tmbluesbflat:
[qb] You need to know what causes a man or a religion or a political movement to get motivated enough to create what you refer to as terrorists. Jihad is not a casual I don‘t like you, it is a reaction, in the case of Mid East religion, the reaction has been coming for about a thousand years, remember the religious nut cases refered to as CRUSADERS! If you do not understand what motivates your enemy he will kill you, if you blindly follow some crack pot religious doctrine he will kill you, so learn or DIE! [/qb]

Right! That‘s what people have been saying. So explain to me again how oil fits into this reaction that‘s been coming for a thousand years?

 

[Brad Sallows]

>New methods of extracting oil? Using technology of course!...

At what point did we diverge from the realm of the possible and the likely into Star Trek? If you want to reassure me of your ability to form coherent rational arguments, resorting to ad absurdum isn‘t helping.

>Oil is used for everything in this world.

Except everything which is powered by electricity. Leaving aside the extraction possibilities, oil is important because it stores a useful amount of energy which is easily transportable. The technologies to replace it already exist. Right now there is simply no economic incentive to pursue alternatives with vigour. Why this particular problem (the increasing cost of oil) should be beyond our capability to adapt and overcome, unlike no other problem before it, escapes me. We need not expect the transition to be abrupt. As oil costs rise, alternatives will become cost-effective. Eventually we will reach a tipping point where the alternatives become cheaper. As we refine the alternatives, they will become even more affordable. Can you pinpoint exactly when CDs replaced vinyl and DVDs replaced VHS? How long did it take for computers to evolve from "expensive novelty" to "utility" in most homes? The point these examples make is: don‘t underestimate the rapidity and unpredictability of affordable technological change. Especially don‘t underestimate it when it underpins the vital aspects of the economy and not just novelties for the home.

>I am just condemning them for lying about their motives for this war.

Most of the lying is in the form of blatant attempts to misrepresent the prewar claims so as to establish in the popular mythology the idea that "Bush lied". I have read the quotations and the spin. Were the popular pretexts for war thin and in some cases overstated? Yes. Were they lies? No. Was the war "about oil"? In 20 years or less, I expect that belief will be silly even to its current adherents.

I see the latest theory - the "threat" of oil transactions being conducted in a currency other than USD - has been trotted out.

I must be missing something if the terrorists are "kicking ***". They‘ve "kicked ***" all the way out of Afghanistan and have lost potential footholds in Iraq and Libya. They‘ve "kicked ***" so much they are unwelcome except in perhaps a handful of countries. I can hardly wait for them to "kick ***" to conclusion.

Apparently the new Spanish government is making noises about remaining in Iraq and possibly increasing the troop commitment.

 

[tmbluesbflat]

try to remember that the founding fathers of the USA, stipulated a seperation of church from state, having seen the history of religious maniac from all sides commit murder in the name of their whatever god de Jour. they knew that for the republic to succeed that stipulation had to prevail. The patriot act suspends that stipulation. There is no misstaking the importance of oil, historically or in the future which is exactly why certain world powers have been trying to buy/corrupt/ steal or conquor any one who is in possesion of large amounts. Study economics you will find that the dollar manipulation of other peoples currency is the major factor in the collapse of Argentina, Japan,
various other SE Asian countries. The invasion of Iraq was a forgone conclusion when Iraq signed a deal with European countries, that acceptance of the Euro in place of the US dollar would break the Hegemony enjoyed by the US $ and they would no longer control most of the world based on their dollar. Anybody or country with large holdings in the US has seen their investment devalued by as much as 50% or more in some cases, check gold and silver prices and of course PGMs these have all advanced against the dollar as has the Euro up by about 50% the CDN$ up by about 20% etc. Malaysia (a large oil producer, think Brunei) have begun to go onto a gold standard denying the US $ to rule them. So there is a whole lot more to all this than Sadam,Osama etc The USA has been pillaging on the international financial markets since WW11, which is probably why the twin towers were targeted, they represent the headquarters of the greatest robberies and piracy ever known. We are not talking just cutting a good deal, force of arms have backed most of the deals, Nicaragua, Chili,Iran, Iraq,Guatamala, Panama, Venezuala, Argentina, West African countries (oil rich) just last week mercenaries funded by a Brit connected to big oil, were arrested in east africa on their way to kill the leader of the Ivory coast, I think it was. Their game plan was apparently in print on the aircraft. This is business as usual so arrogant they don‘t even hide their orders. Well this sort of thing has been going on for decades, the victims are pissed off, millions of them, generations even have died. Think US deal like NAFTA have they ever honoured any of those deals with Canada without vast court fightsÉ

 

[muskrat89]

There is no separation of church and state, in the US Constitution. You‘d better read it, before citing it.

If you look in your pocket U.S. Constitution, you won‘t find it anywhere. Here‘s the derivation of that famous phrase, courtesy of a speech to the House of Representatives by U.S. Congressman Joseph Pitts of Pennsylvania.

"The phrase separation of church and state appeared in an exchange of letters between President Thomas Jefferson and the Baptist Association of Danbury, Connecticut.

"From the early settlement of Rhode Island in the 1630‘s, to the time of the federal Constitution in the 1780‘s, the Baptists often found themselves suffering from the centralization of power. And now, having a President who advocated clear limits on the centralization of government powers, the Danbury Baptists wrote Jefferson on November 7, 1801, congratulating him, but also expressing their grave concern over the entire concept of the First Amendment.

"That the Constitution even contained a guarantee for the 'free exercise of religion‘ suggested to Danbury Baptists that the right to religious expression had become a government-given (rather than a God-given) inalienable right. They feared that the government might someday believe that it had the Constitutional authority to regulate the 'free exercise of religion.‘ Jefferson understood their concern; it was also his own. He believed, along with the Founders, that the only thing the First Amendment prohibited was the federal establishment of a national denomination.

"Jefferson committed himself as President to pursuing what he believed to be the purpose of the First Amendment: not allowing any denomination to become the federal religion (as had been the case in Britain, France, Italy, and other nations of that day). In fact, at the time of the writing of the Constitution, 8 of the 13 former colonies had state churches.

"But Jefferson had no intention of allowing the federal government to limit, restrict, regulate, or interfere with public religious practices. Therefore, in his short, polite reply to the Danbury Baptists on January 1, 1802, he assured them that they need not fear; the free exercise of religion would never be interfered with by the government.

"Jefferson wrote: 'Believing with you that man owes account to none other for his faith or his worship than to God...I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their federal legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.‘

"Mr. Jefferson‘s understanding of the wall of separation between church and state was that it would keep the federal government from inhibiting religious expressions.

Seems no matter how hard we try to talk about Spain, we keep coming back to this...

 

[Spr.Earl]

Originally posted by Spr.Earl:
[qb] Lets say if Spain did not have the bomb attack and the Present Gov. still whent ahead and pulled the Troop‘s out,would we still see the vailed inuendo from Bush,even though a Leader has listened to the People.
(When was the last time that happened in N.America?)

Just another thought provoking question. [/qb]

Lets start fom here!!!

 

[bossi]

Yah know, I keep thinking about this ...

You need to know what causes a man or a religion or a political movement to get motivated enough to create what you refer to as terrorists. Jihad is not a casual I don‘t like you, it is a reaction, in the case of Mid East religion, the reaction has been coming for about a thousand years, remember the religious nut cases refered to as CRUSADERS! If you do not understand what motivates your enemy he will kill you, if you blindly follow some crack pot religious doctrine he will kill you, so learn or DIE!

So, I wuz thinkin‘ ...
How about a quick survey of "war-ending" gambits and nasty stuff that discouraged resistance ... ?

Teamsters‘ Union - Jimmy Hoffa, cement, undisclosed location ...
Vlad The Impaler - heads, pointy sticks, decline in foreign tourism ...
Japan (WWII) - nuke a couple of cities ...
Germany (both Great Hates) - years of war, destruction, attrition ...

The Borg - assimilation ("resistance is futile")

Okay - maybe that last one hasn‘t happened yet in this star system, but ... we‘re talking about finding a way to convince the terrorists to stop murdering innocent civilians.
As opposed to the Borg, the democratic nations have a fairly lame battle cry: "We‘re getting tired of your political/religious intolerance, so stop killing innocent men, women and children or ... or ... or we‘ll get really angry."
(I guess it hasn‘t scared the terrorists enough yet, huh? Should we say it louder? Maybe stamp our feet and cross out arms, and frown? Hmmm ...)

 

[koalorka]

Tmbluesflat, as usual, a voice of reason.

Now back to Spain...
I was really disgusted by this attack because Spain feeds (literally) half of Morocco. This is how the Morocans say tank you..
The entire conflict and terrorism originate essentially in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. If G.W. Bush weren‘t such a ***** he would declare that for any other major terrorist attack on the population of a Western country, the Mecca would be transformed into a smoldering crater, if that doesnt prevent further attacks, Medina would be nuked etc. So there you have it, a foolproof solution.
Oh, and I‘m glad Israel put that lousy cripple Yassin out of his misery.

 

[Kirkhill]

You need to know what causes a man or a religion or a political movement to get motivated enough to create what you refer to as terrorists. Jihad is not a casual I don‘t like you, it is a reaction, in the case of Mid East religion, the reaction has been coming for about a thousand years, remember the religious nut cases refered to as CRUSADERS! If you do not understand what motivates your enemy he will kill you, if you blindly follow some crack pot religious doctrine he will kill you, so learn or DIE!

The Crusaders were nut cases???!!! God help us all indeed.

Did you read the latest threat to the French Prime Minister Jaffarin from his mob of rabid islamists? It was in last week‘s Le Figaro.

After beating up on the French about the Hijab, (the French were both wrong and stupid on that one)these lads got down to cases.

Their real beef with the French is that Charles Martel stopped Abd-er-rahman from spreading the gospel according to Mohammed.

Charles the Hammer inflicted this indignity on Mohammed, blessings be upon him, at Poitiers in southern France after your man Abd-er-rahman marched across Spain.

The Battle of Poitiers happened in 732.

Abd-er-rahman invaded Spain in 711. His offspring didn‘t get kicked out until 1492. That is the reason the Moroccans blew up the train in Madrid. They were avenging the loss of Al-Andalusia.

If The Hammer hadn‘t stopped the Arabs at Poitiers and subverted the will of Allah then the whole of Europe would now be an Islamic fundamentalist paradise.

Now if you want to go dragging up history to justify current actions, and it seems lots of folks do, make sure you don‘t get off the train just because the station suits you. Follow your logic to the end of the line.

Poitiers to Lepanto, 732 to 1457, 700 years of western Europeans keeping the forces of Mohammed out.

Lepanto to the fall of Jerusalem in 1917, 250 years of life in the balance as Islam under the rule of Istanbul decayed and the west underwent the renaissance and the industrial revolution.

1922, the word gets out to the villages that Islam is not the political power that they have been taught to believe it is and that foreigners have decided to allow other foreigners to live in their country and, to quote a Hoosier buddy of mine, "there ain‘t nothing they can do about it"

1922 to today, a bunch of frustrated Arabs.

Read history how you like, everyone else does but it is just as reasonable to blame the Arabs‘ current woes on the fact that they invaded Spain in 711 AD, 1300 years ago, as it is to blame it on the Crusaders.

Away back to school with you.

Pook out.

 

[Kirkhill]

Sorry in my agitation I got my maths wrong, from the battle of Lepanto in 1457, when the Arabs lost control of the Mediterranean to the Italians, to the fall of Jerusalem to Allenby in 1917 was 450 years, not 250.

 

[Kirkhill]

And watch your reference to NAZIs. You haven‘t got a clue.

 

[Kirkhill]

The only thing I hate worse than being wrong is being an idiot, and an obnoxious idiot to boot.

In the rant above I let my temper get away on me again. In the process I managed to mangle some of my dates, specifically the Battle of Lepanto. In 1571 the Hapsburgs met and defeated the Turks at sea, not 1457, I don‘t know where that date came from.

I stand by my central point, that Europe, Africa, Persia, India and China have been holding of the soldiers of the prophet since 630. They made it into Spain in 711 and were stopped at Poitiers in 732.

I apologise for the gratuitous comments.

 

[Pieman]

--------------------------------------------------
Spain receives new threat from al-Qaeda
Last Updated Mon, 05 Apr 2004 19:11:40

MADRID - Spanish authorities have announced two more arrests for the Madrid train bombings at the same time as a faxed letter claiming to be from al-Qaeda threatens more attacks.

* INDEPTH: Spain

After a weekend siege in which at least four suspected train bombers blew themselves up, police have stepped up the hunt for a handful of remaining suspected accomplices.


The letter threatens more attacks like the one on March 11. (AP Photo)
Investigators are analysing a letter sent to a Spanish newspaper. It promises "rivers of blood" unless Spain withdraws troops from Iraq and Afghanistan.

"The communique demands that Spain‘s government immediately withdraw its troops from Iraq and Afghanistan, or it will turn this country into an inferno," said Rodrigo Gutierrez, assistant editor-in-chief of the newspaper ABC. The letter claims al-Qaeda was responsible for the March 11 attacks, as well as a bomb planted on a high-speed rail line and defused on Friday.

The letter said Spain has until Sunday, April 4, to end its support for the United States and withdraw its troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. "If these demands are not met, we will declare war on you and ... convert your country into an inferno and your blood will flow like rivers."

Spain‘s Interior Ministry said it attached "a certain credibility to the authorship [of the letter], but not to the threat."

Written by CBC News Online staff
---------------------------------------------------
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/04/05/world/alqaeda040405

 

[Jungle]

The letter threatens more attacks like the one on March 11. Investigators are analysing a letter sent to a Spanish newspaper. It promises "rivers of blood" unless Spain withdraws troops from Iraq and Afghanistan.

"The communique demands that Spain‘s government immediately withdraw its troops from Iraq and Afghanistan, or it will turn this country into an inferno," said Rodrigo Gutierrez, assistant editor-in-chief of the newspaper ABC. The letter claims al-Qaeda was responsible for the March 11 attacks, as well as a bomb planted on a high-speed rail line and defused on Friday.

The letter said Spain has until Sunday, April 4, to end its support for the United States and withdraw its troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. "If these demands are not met, we will declare war on you and ... convert your country into an inferno and your blood will flow like rivers."

This is called "exploiting success".

 

[1feral1]

Hate to say I told ya so. The terrs see Spain as weak, and now are ‘extorting‘ them to leave Afghanistan or more bombs will follow. Goes to show you the desperate mentality of them.

We as a whole must stand and fight ‘over there‘ before it comes to our shores, but sadly we know they are here, wating orders. Waitng to create a sickening rein of terror not on our doorstep, but in our living rooms.

The Spainards are freaked out in regards to the bombing of the block of flats in suburbia the other day, in which the terrs shouting ‘allah akbar‘ blew themselves up along with one policeman.

If it can happen there, it can happen in our countries too. Canada and Australia are not immune to this terror.

Regards,

Wes

 

[bossi]

... and it just keeps getting better, and better ...

Video Found in Madrid Apartment Rubble

MADRID, Spain - A video found in the rubble of an apartment where suspects in the Madrid train bombings blew themselves up warns Spain to withdraw its troops from Iraq and Afghanistan in a week or face new attacks, the Interior Ministry said Thursday.

The video - the latest of several warning new attacks in spain - shows three heavily armed people reading a statement that ges Spain one week to "leave Muslim lands immediately," authorities said. A copy of the text was sent by the Interior Ministry to The Associated Press.

It was not clear when the video had been filmed or when the deadline would begin. It was also not known if any of the three who appeared on the tape were among the four suspects who blew themselves up in the apartment Saturday.

"Should you not do this within the space of a week, starting today, we will continue our Jihad until martyrdom," it added. Jihad is the Islamic term for a holy war.

"You know that you are not safe, and you know that Bush and his administration will bring only destruction. We will kill you anywhere and in any manner," it read.

Police said they haven‘t ruled out that the video, whose text police had translated into Spanish, was filmed by some of the suspected terrorists before their collective suicide during a police raid.

An Interior Ministry spokesman said the video was found in the rubble of the apartment.

Spain has 1,300 troops in Iraq and 125 in Afghanistan. The incoming Socialist government has said it will withdraw the soldiers from Iraq by June 30 unless the United Nations takes control of the postwar occupation.

The attacks on four commuter trains March 11 killed 191 people and wounded more than 1,800. A videotape found outside a Madrid mosque March 13 showed an Arabic-speaking man reading a statement from a purported al-Qaida operative claiming that the Madrid bombings were punishment for Spain‘s backing of the U.S.-led war in Iraq.

Last week, a Spanish newspaper said it received a threat from the same group saying Spain would be turned into "an inferno" unless Madrid withdrew Spanish troops from Iraq and Afghanistan.

In Sarajevo, authorities said Thursday they were investigating whether a Bosnian national was among suspects in the March 11 commuter train bombings.

Spanish police asked the Bosnia office of Interpol to check into the suspect, said Brane Pecanac, the head of the local Interpol bureau.

Seventeen people, including 13 Moroccans, have been charged in the case - six with mass murder and the rest with collaborating or belonging to a terrorist group.

By DANIEL WOOLLS
The Associated Press
Thursday, April 8, 2004; 10:45 PM

 

[K. Ash]

"leave Muslim lands immediately,"

Do you know if Iraq is all they are referring to here?