Spain is pulling out

[Brad Sallows]

Regarding the high school or college paper, I must agree that while it might have "made the grade" with the recipient, it‘s too full of factual errors and unproven assertions to be taken seriously. Sorry, I haven‘t time to fisk it in detail.

>I‘ve seen a good arguement that states that al Qaeda‘s opposition to the US seems to be based around American policies. American support of Israel, American soldiers in Saudi Arabia, American support for moderate regimes in the Middle East, etc.

Al Qaeda‘s chief aim is to establish a fundamental Islamic theocracy (ultimately, one which spans the globe) according to the organization‘s own interpretation of the religion. To do that, al Qaeda must supplant the governments which currently control predominantly Islamic lands; in particular, al Qaeda wishes to first establish control over the holy lands and sites in Saudi Arabia. In order to do that, it is necessary to remove external support for the regimes. The US is one of the external supporters. Attacks on the US are simply a means to persuade the US to remove its presence; that is simply a stepping-stone on the path, not the ultimate destination. If the US is too difficult to attack directly, indirect pressure may be brought to bear by attacking weaker nations.

It is no more reasonable to expect the US to depart the region and leave it to its own instabilities that it would have been reasonable for Canada to pack up its tents and come home from Roto 0 in the Balkans the first time one of the local warlords knocked on the CP door and said, "You have no business here. Leave immediately."

Whether one approaches from the religious or the political view, the "grievances" are unreasonable ("convert or die", "leave the Islamic lands"); the "root cause" of the terrorism I can only regard as irreconcilable differences. When two parties to a negotiation or with conflicting interests refuse to compromise, the only solutions are for one party to impose its will on the other or both to accept the status quo.

Appeasement can only work if the appeased party is willing to forego its other claims; otherwise, appeasement is merely incremental surrender. It does not seem to be true that al Qaeda will yield any of its claims. One must conclude the only options are to roll over and die, or fight back. If terrorists decide to apply indirect pressure and the US refuses to yield to the entreaties of other nations under attack, those nations will have three choices: endure the attacks, fight the terrorists, fight the US.

 

[Engineer Corporal]

Augh... I‘m not up for appeasing the terrorists. I am also not saying we do nothing. Reducing our dependancy on oil as a whole would be a major blow to the terrorists and the governments who harbour them.
Ok what is the number one reason why osama hates the United States? Their continual military presence in the persian gulf region mainly saudi arabia. Why is their a continual U.S. presence in the persian gulf? To protect the oil wells. Where does the money for most middle eastern governments come from? The purchase of their oil. Which in turn is used to fuel their war on terrorism.
So if we in turn eliminate our need for oil. Alternative means of energy is the way to go. Oil won‘t last forever and ever anyways so why not put enormous amounts of cash into finding new forms of energy. In doing so if that happened then the military presence in persian gulf area would be useless. They would leave.

Islam is not a religion of hate it‘s a religion of peace by definition. Now who is holding back the advancement of alternative means of energy? Well duh the oil companies themselves they have all the money and don‘t want to give up their huge profits to further the human race. The pursuit of who‘s in control of the world‘s energy is always going to be the driving force in war.
When the blackout of 2003 happened and a man in africa was asked (sorry don‘t remmeber exactly which country it was). He was asked what he thought of it and he said "welcome to my world no water no electricity".

People are by definition good people at heart. They want to live their lives accordingly to their religious practices and be left alone by outside influences. History has shown that whenever a people from a different country has interfered in the affairs of a foreign nation disaster is not far off. Guess what everyone we have interfered big time!
Why would the U.S. go to all this trouble because american way of life will not survive without oil. Think about it how many times a day does oil influence your lives? Your car, heating your house, half a dozen things. So **** yeah the americans are gonna go through alot of trouble to keep the oil flowing. Winning the energy war is winning the war itself. Invading countries who have oil is only going to fuel their case and cause death destruction and despair. But hey whatever right.
When people like the Islamic people are having their countries invaded. Then hey can you blame them for fighting back? What would happen if florida was invaded. Every american and canadian too would close ranks and fight for their lives. So why can‘t this happen with the islamic people?

Pure arrogance that american lives are worth more than any other is a root cause of defeat. To quote a fine man romeo dallaire from his book "shake hands with the devil" A "U.S. analyst says that one american life is worth 80,000 rwandans".

 

[George Wallace]

Maybe what you need is a face to face meeting with the family of someone who was killed on 11 Sep, or the 12 Oct attacks in Bali, not mentioning about speaking to a young wife with ababy on the way, who lost her husband in a recent RPG attack in Baghdad, or speak to an Iraqi man who for the first time in a generation, who can now speak out, and not fear being killed or tortured.

Wes

Maybe these are the wrong people for them (Engr Cpl and others of his ilk) to meet. Perhaps they should have a face to face with an AQ terrorist and try to make their peace.

Just a thought.

GW

 

[Brad Sallows]

>Why is their a continual U.S. presence in the persian gulf? To protect the oil wells.

The oil will be pumped and sold no matter who controls it. The US could have bought Kuwaiti oil from Hussein. The roots of the US presence go deeper than that.

>Islam is not a religion of hate it‘s a religion of peace by definition.

OK, suppose I refuse to ever convert to Islam and the rest of the world does. What should be my fate, according to the religion‘s principles?

>People are by definition good people at heart.

Your faith is commendable, but people are fundamentally selfish.

>History has shown that whenever a people from a different country has interfered in the affairs of a foreign nation disaster is not far off.

No, it depends on circumstances. The Allies interfered a great deal with the destiny of Germany and Japan in the post-war years.

 

[1feral1]

Comrad Engr CPL:

What about sharia law? So do you approve of honour killings, the public stoning of women or approve of husbands killing their wives, and the lack of woman‘s rights, in many cases including soemthing as simple as an education, or not leaving your home without a male relative, or even being allowed to drive a car?

How about public executions with a kangaroo court, the cutting off of limbs or petty theft? In the majority of muslim countries this is how it is. Imagine, you see a woman, its 45C (in the shade) and she is covered in head to toe in a full on burka. Never allowed to wear something as simple as a summer dress, or makeup in public for fear of being spit on or beaten. How would you like to live in a society like that? Oh, waht about female genital mutilation too? Whats your say, mate?

In many cases its 13th century mentality, with 21st century technology, with many fundimentalists understanding the Koran in a very bent and twisted way, not seeing it the way most mainstream moderate muslims do.

Where are the moderates? Why are they not policing these bad guys up, and dealing with them?

Ther are hardcores in any religion, including mine (RC). BTW I am for priests being able to marry, and the use of birth control, and freedom of choice, you‘ll only get me in a church for weddings and funerals, but what does that define me in the RC church? I dont really care, but I wont be stoned or imprisoned for my liberal thoughts in the hoplessly joke of the RC church.

As for muslims, sure the majority are just normal people like ourselves, but when the cultures collide (christians vs extreme muslims)there is problems. Throughout Indonesia and Thailand, christians are murdered, and churches are burned. By who, the fundimentalists in large groups, which run amuck, uncontroled, while the moderates just sit back, watch, and clean up the mess.

Right here in Sydney, the jewish communities in the eastern suburbs have been attacked with cars and property firebombed with arabic anti-jewish sloagans painted on fendes and walls. Pro OBL, pro PLO sloagans etc, etc. All this in a so called multicultural society. Has it worked? What do you think. Islamic fundimental schools are ongoing right now here in Australia, with many teachers being watched by ASIO (our CIA), and what are they telling these kids? Take a guess.

A wooden pillar at a beachside location which resembled Mary (when the light was right) was destroyed by muslims beacuse they were offened by it.

Its not too comfortable here at time, and its not the moderates here which stir the pot. Its about being ant-west, and an infidel, and when you come face to face with a group of them, its really dangerous.

So as I said, you can have the charts, grapsh, the video, the t-0shirt, and read the book too, but unless you experience this way of life,a nd delt with it first hand (I have been to Malaysia, Thailand, and Indonesia)take the time to examine, befoer speaking, becuse you have made a fool of yourself here.

It aint about oil. Its about the putting down of a rabbid animal, its called radical Islam terrorism, and rest assured if you were in their custody right now you would in grave danger, not because you are a Cdn, white, and have a wad full of USD in your wallet, but beacuse you are not one of them. To them you are simply an infidel, and would be killed. That is a fact.

Wait out.

Wes

 

[George Wallace]

Wes...don‘t have a coronary because he is going through life with rose coloured glasses and blinders on. Reality will smack him between the lookers some day. If only it were sooner, rather than too late. His arguements are flawed. Give him some time to re-examine his values. Right now he is being a closed minded Thud **** who won‘t change his mind for anything. If he thought the sky was purple, no matter how many of us told him it was blue, he still wouldn‘t change his mind. Could be bi-polar? Who knows?

GW

 

[1feral1]

No worries GW,

I wont, it just shytes me to tears with the thick blinders this bloke has on. At least he wont be hunted down for his leftist views, as he would be if he was in a fundimentalist state.

He can thank the over 100,000 unselfish Canadians who gave their lives in the 20th century wars, to allow him to have the rights and freedoms he has today.

I think he takes it all for granted.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[Engineer Corporal]

I don‘t think the 100,000 indeed brave canadians who died giving us all our freedoms would want me to sit idlely by while the world goes down the wrong path. Your now trying to destroy my credibility just because I have views that you and others who have posted don‘t agree with. Thankfully canada decided not to go to war with Iraq on false pretences like the other‘s britain,australia. We stood up and said "no this is wrong" and made our decision and we have been proven correct.

By trying to say that I am unpatriotic because I try to express my views on how the world could be better. Just because you except the world as a horrible place. It sure is, but let‘s not say that war is the only answer for us. Im glad none of the people who posted will ever be in a postion to change policy because we will go down the path more travelled in the past. Chretien chose the path less travelled and it was the right one.

Like Winston Churchill said the "truth is always protected by a bodyguard of lies".
I have said my piece so attack me as you will. Good Day.

 

[Marauder]

Originally posted by BadBird:
Well Infanteer, I know this from reading a lot and watching the news often. I am also a history major in university and I am very interested in international history and politics. From all of my inputs of information I formulate my own opinions.

It‘s one, two, three strikes, you‘re out. Spit the silver spoon out at THINK for a second. Don‘t just regurgitate the bull caca the liberal media and your commie history profs spew(I‘m well aware about the ideological leaning of arts profs, all too well, so save the feeble protests otherwise.) You‘re an adult, think for yourself. Be critical of what you read in media and all the loony lefty crap distilled into "textbooks" by comm‘anist professors who can make any claim they want from behind the shield of tenure. To repeat in case you missed it, THINK!!!

As for "root causes"

In his speeches and religious decrees, bin Laden has alluded frequently to the collapse of the Islamic Caliphate as the major turning point for the world‘s Muslims. The Caliphate was not officially abolished until 1924, but to many scholars, its decline began with the fall of Al-Andalus.
"Let the whole world know that we shall never accept that the tragedy of Al-Andalus would be repeated," bin Laden declared in a videotaped statement broadcast around the world on Oct. 7, 2001. It was the start of the U.S. bombing of Afghanistan, which was intended to dislodge the al-Qaida terrorist network and the Taliban movement that sheltered it.
At such a decisive moment in his own life, specialists say, bin Laden chose to highlight the story of Al-Andalus as a cautionary tale to Muslims. To bin Laden and other Islamic militants, the Islamic empire in Spain collapsed because of infighting among rival Muslim princes and clans.
"To bin Laden, Al-Andalus represented the height of Muslim glory and its downfall was a great betrayal," said Mohammad Salah, an expert on Islamic militants at the pan-Arab newspaper Al-Hayat. "He uses it often as a lesson for Muslims about the importance of remaining united."
In the eighth century, Moorish armies from North Africa conquered the Iberian Peninsula and annexed it into the growing Muslim empire. The Moors established a vibrant society centered around the cities of Granada and Cordoba. They used Spain as a base from which to fight Christian armies in Europe and try to further spread the Muslim empire.
By the mid-1400s, Christian forces had pushed the Muslims out of much of Europe. In 1492, Granada was ceded to Ferdinand and Isabella, who later expelled all Muslims and Jews from the newly created Kingdom of Spain.
To militants such as bin Laden, that was when the golden age of Islam ended.
"Bin Laden has a long list of historical grievances," Salah said. "Spain is near the top of that list."
Bin Laden has singled out Spain repeatedly for its backing of the U.S.-led war in Iraq and its crackdown on al-Qaida operatives since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. In one audiotape broadcast last year on the Arabic TV network Al-Jazeera, bin Laden warned that Spain would be among six countries he considered "special" targets for their role in the Iraq war.
In a letter claiming responsibility for last week‘s train bombings in Madrid, an al-Qaida-linked group hinted at a historical grudge.
"This is part of settling old accounts with Spain, the crusader, and America‘s ally in its war against Islam," said the statement sent to a London-based Arabic newspaper. It was signed by the Brigade of Abu Hafs al-Masri, a group named after al-Qaida‘s military commander, who was killed in 2001 during the U.S. bombing of Afghanistan.

From http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=34590

Muhammad XII looses the city January 2, 1492. As he leaves, he turns back and weeps, only to be reprimanded by his mother: "Weep like a woman, son, for that which you could not defend as a man."

So there‘s one of the much ballyhooed "root causes". These whack jobs aren‘t slamming planes into buildings soley cause Dubya Sr. garrisoned troops in Saudia Arabia. It‘s not just because Israel carved itself a pretty decent firetrench after WWII. No, one of O‘Sammy‘s (Happy St Paddy‘s BTW) big bitches is that a few centuries back some Muslim conqueres finally got turfed out of a nice seaside location they took by the sword another few centuries earlier. ****, I imagine he‘s just pissed that Islam has been getting its collective azz handed back to it everytime it has struck out at others since the time of Mohammed. Ya see troops, he and his pals see the root cause of their wish to blow up Whitey, as something that occured before America was even founded. 1492, someone sailed the ocean blue, remember? bin Laden is pissed about something that happened the year Comlumbus found the Americas.
You can‘t reason with these phucks. Too many libs keep getting wrapped around the axle about their precious "root causes". Well, here‘s one of Timmy Talibunny‘s. How do you propose to appease AQ about something that happened 600 or so years ago?
This thing is a fight to the finish, folks. Either radical Islam is wiped from the face of the planet, or your and my greatgrandkids are going to be living under sharia. I for one don‘t want my granddaughters stoned to death for wearing a miniskirt and high heels (any little punk who looks at her the wrong way while she‘s in that getup, on the other hand...) or for dancing, of all retarded reasons. Wake up and realize that there is no middle ground with these deadenders. Either they die, or we do. Don‘t waste time asking "Why", only ask about "How, Where, When, How Many At Once".

THINK!!!

 

[1feral1]

Comrad Engr CPL:

I see you did not answer my questions in my above post. Why am I not suprised. I guess you can keep your head buried in the sand, and sit back to watch the news as more allied soldiers are killed fighting for something you consider wrong, our freedom. It was not the people who stood up and said it was wrong it was your limp wristed Liberal govt, you know the same guys who brought in the billion gun control registry.

How dare you condem my country for assisting in the liberation Iraq. Shame on ya.

Australia followed the USA and other countries beacuse in our govt‘s view it was the right thing to do, when a friend needs a bit of assistance, you help him out.

The USA saved Australia from the Japanese. We suffered here more than people know, with Darwin having almost 70 air-raids alone with hundreds of people killed in the first attack in Feb 42.

Our close ties with the USA will always be there, and although we slam the Yanks too, we cannot forget the thousands of US military personnel who gave their lives in our defence. We also fought side by side along with Canada in Korea, and again with the USA in a 10yr long battle in Viet Nam where the last Australian VCs were won. In the past over 100yrs we have fought 13 wars of other nations, and know what it is like to have blood spilt on our own shores.

I will not condem the lack of involvment in Iraq by Canada, as that was set out by govt policy, but a friend of mine who is in the CF, and won the bronze star serving in Afghanistan, has had a gutfull of the federal govt lack of intestinal fortitude, and is getting out of the CF because of it. Thats someone with almost 30yrs expereince from all levels of comd, from PTE to Commissioned Officer.

If Canada had decided to send troops ( and they still might) what would you have done if you were going to be deployed? I bet you‘d have turned in your kit quicksmart with your tail between your legs.

I would expect this behavior to be that of some watermellon misguided uni student who supports greenpeace, and S-11 groups, marches in anti-social activities, and maybe a memebr of teh communist party, not a serving member of the CF, and I find it in a way almost treasonous, and in very bad taste.

I could say worse, but I wont. why should I continue to have this debate with someone who really does not have a clue on the real world, and would rather see a nation suffer under a brutal regime.

This is what I dislike, having to put my life on the line for people of your state of mind, and beliefs.

PS - do you really think that Canada‘s lack of invlovment in Iraq will spare it from a terrorist attack from Islamic fundimentalists, afterall Canada gave ‘5star‘ service in the war in Afghanistan, and was in on East Timor too. You can rest assured that sympathisers are enbedded in the middle eastern communities througout cites in all parts of Canada, waiting, sleeping, and will strike when they are ordered to.

OUT!

Wes

 

[Jungle]

We have yet more proof that these people can‘t be reasonnable: they are now threatening to attack France because of that law against religious objects in schools. Now if they were civilized, they would wait for the next democratic election, and let their collective voice be heard. If that fails, they should then move back to Iran or wherever the **** they came from and live the way they want...
The spanish are not cowards, but the country had a coward reaction to the attacks. They gave the terrs a victory they probably weren‘t expecting.
BTW, the thread was about Spain, not the USA.

 

[1feral1]

Good posts Jungle and Marauder :fifty: Keep ‘em firing!

Cheers and cold Aussie beers,

Wes

 

[Franko]

Very interesting points all....

Kudos to Jungle on the point of the thread being about Spain...not about the Yanks.

Let‘s keep this discussion going.

Spr. Earl....thanks for the clarification on your sidenote. I wholeheartly agree.

Regards

 

[Jarnhamar]

WHo threatened to attack france about the religious objects?

The terrorists we are dealing with are like the bad guys in the movies. Even when they get what they want, they blow away the hostage anyways just because their evil.
IF we pulled out of everything, gave in to all their demands, let them have their run of the place do you think they would be happy? Think they would hang up their vests full of C4 and burry their AKs? No way. They would find something else to to destroy, find another reason to kill. They would attack North America for "showing weakness and retreating from an enemy" or something stupid like that. You can‘t win like that.

While i think it‘s poor judgement on spains behalf for pulling out I don‘t really fault them. They don‘t know any better. Just like the US didn‘t know any better and thought they were impervious to attack, until september 11th. Each country will have to suffer a disaster just like 911 until they realise staying inside your borders won‘t work anymore.

 

[1feral1]

This law comes into effect later this year. It bans not only the female muslim head dress, but the jewish skull caps, and large christian crosses, etc from being worn in public schools. Seems to be so far that only the islamic ones are complaining.

It is a ban on religous objects bein worn in public schools, not singling out any particular faith.

If memory serves me correctly, France‘s population is between 7-10% muslim, of which who knows how many are fundimentalists.

I wholeheartedly agree, that ther could be some serious problems after this law takes effect, as even herre in Australia, hundreds of muslims have protested here in Sydney, and its not even happening here at all.

Cheers,

Wes

Other countries in Europe such as Turkey have a similar law which has been in effect for years.

 

[Jarnhamar]

That might be a good thread for another debate. What do people think about that rule. Good point about how many are actually fundimantalists.
I‘m sure people are protesting in ottawa already.

Anways sorry back on topic;
I‘d say it brings up good question. Do we as Canadians (or whichever country) have a right to protest what another country does. ie France banning religious objects, Spain pulling out..
Something that may seem insiginificant often effects us in more ways than most people know.

 

[winchable]

The headscarf thing is already in another thread but I‘ll throw down;
Hijabs are in a different category from Crosses and Kippas.
The Hijab is worn because it is decreed by God that it be that way, crosses are basically jewelery (cosmetically worn) and Kippas are ceremonial (correct me if I‘m wrong forgive me for not knowing)
It says no-where (as far as i know, once again) that people MUST wear crosses or Kippas; The Hijab is a must (the reasons are actually somewhat sensible) for France to make a law like this it asks people to choose between their comfort and God or the academic career.

 

[K. Ash]

Ok, you guys have been saying that you can‘t reason with these people and the only way to beat them is to kill them, rid the Earth of them. And I am fine with that. They are evil and I do think that it is either them or us.

If I‘m wrong about this correct me, but I‘m assuming that Canada does have terrorist cells here somewhere. Now, if these people are going about living their lives like normal citizens how do we find them? How do we weed out the bad guys from the good guys?

 

[nbk]

This thread is interesting as it shows a complete other side of people. Its shocking actually what some people want to say anonymously over the internet.

I sincerely believe some of you have lifted statements that the NAZIs were using to demonize the Jews (speaking of them as animals, saying they should all be exterminated because of how evil they are) and simply replaced the word "Jews" with "Muslims" or "terrorists".

Its actaully interesting to see how people‘s minds work. They can‘t understand how the Germans could sit back as the NAZI party was pushing its anti semetic agenda, and how they could be so oblivious to the entire holocaust. Yet at the same time they will be cheering as people like bush implement his "Final Solution" for the Middle East "question"...

This war is about oil, no matter how much you have been brainwashed otherwise. Not for greedy businessmen to profit off of, but to secure Mideast oil reserves for the US market, as it is common knowledge that the cheap, accessible oil reserves on this planet are due to start becoming rarer within the next 20 years. The american economy needs oil to survive. In fact every country needs it. The americans are simply trying to squeeze a few extra years out of their stocks before the oil market crashes and the world is plummeted into a second great depression.

As I said before, the election in Spain was going to be won by the socialists no matter what. The population was always mad at the old government due to the war in Iraq, and that is why they were kicked out of office.

The blast, horrific as it was, was likely just a last ditch effort by the right wing party in Spain with help of the Bush administration to attempt to sway voters into thinking they needed a strong totalitarian right wing party to control them in this dangerous time.

Their gamble obviously did not pay off for the old Spanish government. The Bush administration can however take the data they have accumulated because of this event and use it to mold the events that will lead up to the next presedential US election...

You guys will just have to sit back, wait, observe and listen. And for christs sake, you people need to learn not to believe everything the media tells you. Learn to look at things objectively, and question everything. Try to understand that political people do have motives in their actions and statements.

 

[Infanteer]

I sincerely believe some of you have lifted statements that the NAZIs were using to demonize the Jews (speaking of them as animals, saying they should all be exterminated because of how evil they are) and simply replaced the word "Jews" with "Muslims" or "terrorists".

If you‘d bother to pay attention, you‘d find we were talking about the violent, fundamentalest sect embraced by terrorists as a vehicle for fighting the West. We‘re condemning the Nazis, not the Germans.

You notice how our resident Muslim has yet to label us hate-mongerers?

This war is about oil, no matter how much you have been brainwashed otherwise.

Funny, I thought that little thing about the World Trade Center has something to do about it. Like I said before, your attempting to simplify things to black and white, and that shows that it is you who has succumbed to the brainwashing of the granola-eating crowd you subscribe to.

As I said before, the election in Spain was going to be won by the socialists no matter what.

Wrong. As I have shown before, the polls put Aznar‘s party in a comfortable lead prior to the bombings.

The blast, horrific as it was, was likely just a last ditch effort by the right wing party in Spain with help of the Bush administration to attempt to sway voters into thinking they needed a strong totalitarian right wing party to control them in this dangerous time.

Their gamble obviously did not pay off for the old Spanish government. The Bush administration can however take the data they have accumulated because of this event and use it to mold the events that will lead up to the next presedential US election...

Wow, you truly are an idiot. Anything else we should know about, Mister Tin-Foil hat.

You guys will just have to sit back, wait, observe and listen. And for christs sake, you people need to learn not to believe everything the media tells you. Learn to look at things objectively, and question everything. Try to understand that political people do have motives in their actions and statements.

No, we‘re not going to. You are addressing soldiers who will continue to stand up, fight, and protect sheep like you who hide in Toronto. What you see here is not much "believing what the media tells you", but rather first hand knowledge of dealing with extremism in some way, shape, or form.

You accuse us of falling for propaganda, so tell us nbk, what objective lens do you have that makes you the beacon of truth.