Spain is pulling out
- Thread starter K. Ash
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N
nbk
Guest
SPAIN please.
I thank the several of you who manage to continue this descussion without resorting to personal attacks, and will try to address your questions directed towards me.
"A war for oil" can be used by the ‘terrorists‘ to make the yanks seem ‘evil‘, but seeing as how they have colonized 2 countries already in the Middle East and many many people have died, is hearing about oil really going to sway the mind of a young extremist?
Put yourself in the young extremists position. Your friends and family are dead, because they may or may not have been involved in ‘terrorist‘ activities. You hear maybe the yanks want to access your country‘s oil reserves.
Are you going to strap a bomb to your chest because you dont want to give up your oil, or because of the deaths of your friends?
The ‘terrorists‘ propaganda machine may use oil as a lever, simply because they see it happening, and try to make a big deal about it.
We are lucky to live in Canada, where our government‘s corruption does not branch into oppression (yet). We have many freedoms and luxuries that people in other countries do not. I am not saying suicide bombers are justified in their actions, but if you had absolutely nothing, no clean clothes, no food, no job, nothing, except family and friends in the same position as you and a contact who can hook you up with an explosive laden vest. What do you see yourself doing?
Appealing to a government that will just as soon kill you as listen to you? Well the government is gone now, and in their place is a new government that cares about you even less, and on top of that has sent a bomb down upon your family and friends. Do you want to starve to death alone, on some dusty side of the road or maybe go talk to some people who will not only help you out, but make you a martyr if you sacrafice what is left of your life for your people. You have nothing to loose. Is it wrong? Maybe part of you knows it is. Do you care? No.
No you are not going to see Canadians do it anytime soon, because we are lucky enough not to be in the position where one would consider it as an option. However it is not so much caused by how ‘evil‘ people are, as how desperate people are.
The US governments own department of energy has declared that the availablilty of cheap oil will peak within the next 40 years, and admitted that 40 years is an absolute most generous amount of time, and it is likely to happen much closer to the next 20 years. This is due to many factors including increase in useage in the west and the perdicted explosion of industrialization in Asia (notably China and India).
It is hard to believe because most people have an agenda, but some people do take information with a grain of salt, regardless of which "side" of the political spectrum it comes from. You have no way of knowing that I do keep this in mind, other then me telling you I do. Of course I may be lying, so you really have no way of knowing if I have an agenda or not.
New methods of extracting oil? Using technology of course! While we are at it, lets use technology to make a bomb that can be dropped anywhere and will instantly eliminate all of the terrorists in the world forever. After all its possible because of technology.
Even if something in the field of oil processing got figured out tomorrow, it would have to be tested, and implemented. Unforseen eventualities would come up, but lets assume they are not severe. This at best could postpone the oil crash. Yes I am pessemistic about this. Oil is used for everything in this world. Not just for power or gas. With the increased demand worldwide, along with the shrinking availability of accessible cheap oil it is my belief that it is far too late for any implemented new drilling or processing techniques to have much of an impact.
I don‘t believe that it will be too far in the future that society will feel the pinch of the oil crash. Before the decade is out some people say. I will not bet on new technologies to be our saviour, but I can say I hope that I loose that bet.
I‘m not condemning the yanks for participating in an oil war. They need oil to survive, their economy and their entire society depends on it. I am just condemning them for lying about their motives for this war. Everyone knew they were bullshit, and now they are being exposed, one by one. Its too bad they are getting their asses kicked by a bunch of real terrorists, but this is a war about their future survival, so they gotta stick it out.
Religion is nothing more then an easy way to bend the public‘s mind to fit the governments plans. No one would believe their society is a few barrles away from collapse...indeed if they knew that what would happen to wall street and soforth? Stockpiling oil? Civil war?? All that caramel goodness...Muslims are easy to pick on because they have a small population of extremists who have a "terroristic" reputation, and who are already controlled by the american government. So score two times for the yanks. They are justified for occupying the land and they manage to survive for a few more years while the rest of the world scrambles to squeeze every last cheap drop of the black stuff.
****! I say lets talk about Spain again but I end up talking about oil...
The old Spanish government was naive enough to believe if they participated in this war in Iraq they would have a cut of the reserves. The new Spanish government likely believes that once oil becomes an issue, the oil fairy will come and portion out enough oil for everyone. After all so many countries did not participate in the war on Iraq, they will all have to get oil from somewhere. They will go after whoever has it then. If Spain has it then...mucho problemo for them...
The socialists are likely concerned about here and now. They want power like any other political party and right now the war is unpopular in Spain, so they have won on that ticket. It would take too long to explain all that I have said, and nobody would want to listen so they dont bother. Victory is theirs, bravo sinoirs and senoiritas.
I thank the several of you who manage to continue this descussion without resorting to personal attacks, and will try to address your questions directed towards me.
Did the united states send troops to quell Al-Queda operations in Spain? Spain can handle their own business right? What does Iraq have to do with the Moors? Iraq was a country under a mostly secular leader who allowed most religous groups to practice (in fact certain sects of Islam were even outlawed under Saddam‘s reign) with no ties to Al-Queda. Now is it more logical to assume that this was a war against radical Islam which was not widespread in Iraq, or a war about oil, which is plentiful in Iraq?
"A war for oil" can be used by the ‘terrorists‘ to make the yanks seem ‘evil‘, but seeing as how they have colonized 2 countries already in the Middle East and many many people have died, is hearing about oil really going to sway the mind of a young extremist?
Put yourself in the young extremists position. Your friends and family are dead, because they may or may not have been involved in ‘terrorist‘ activities. You hear maybe the yanks want to access your country‘s oil reserves.
Are you going to strap a bomb to your chest because you dont want to give up your oil, or because of the deaths of your friends?
The ‘terrorists‘ propaganda machine may use oil as a lever, simply because they see it happening, and try to make a big deal about it.
I‘m glad you realize that evil is completely subjective!! If more people could realize this there would be easier ways of stopping things from turning into problems. The concept of evil is an extremely religous idea which is used to justify how one should act morally in a time with simple people could commit ‘evil‘ acts much easier and have to pay less of a price for it. ‘Evil‘ had to exist then, to put restrictions on the unenlightened masses.
We are lucky to live in Canada, where our government‘s corruption does not branch into oppression (yet). We have many freedoms and luxuries that people in other countries do not. I am not saying suicide bombers are justified in their actions, but if you had absolutely nothing, no clean clothes, no food, no job, nothing, except family and friends in the same position as you and a contact who can hook you up with an explosive laden vest. What do you see yourself doing?
Appealing to a government that will just as soon kill you as listen to you? Well the government is gone now, and in their place is a new government that cares about you even less, and on top of that has sent a bomb down upon your family and friends. Do you want to starve to death alone, on some dusty side of the road or maybe go talk to some people who will not only help you out, but make you a martyr if you sacrafice what is left of your life for your people. You have nothing to loose. Is it wrong? Maybe part of you knows it is. Do you care? No.
No you are not going to see Canadians do it anytime soon, because we are lucky enough not to be in the position where one would consider it as an option. However it is not so much caused by how ‘evil‘ people are, as how desperate people are.
I accept your invitation, and can tell you I have thought about it, and I am satisfied with my capability to reason. It would not make sense for me to question other people if I had not already determined things for myself.
The US governments own department of energy has declared that the availablilty of cheap oil will peak within the next 40 years, and admitted that 40 years is an absolute most generous amount of time, and it is likely to happen much closer to the next 20 years. This is due to many factors including increase in useage in the west and the perdicted explosion of industrialization in Asia (notably China and India).
It is hard to believe because most people have an agenda, but some people do take information with a grain of salt, regardless of which "side" of the political spectrum it comes from. You have no way of knowing that I do keep this in mind, other then me telling you I do. Of course I may be lying, so you really have no way of knowing if I have an agenda or not.
Good points. If the US were simply to offer them $80B or another rediculous amount what would the taxpayers say? Your right, it would be a deal behind closed doors. Would you trust Hussein to allow you to take his oil for your own country? Would he trust you? I dont recall the Baath party and the Bush administration as being best friends (anymore). At any rate, if you seize a country by force you are in complete control of it. Do you think the yanks anticipated they would have this much trouble? It would be easy enough to justify a war, just say we are going to liberate the people. The public will love it. After all Hussein is ‘evil‘. If he is ‘evil‘ they cant question it. He is evil because he is evil, and must be dealt with as an evil person. They wont have to care about anything else.
New methods of extracting oil? Using technology of course! While we are at it, lets use technology to make a bomb that can be dropped anywhere and will instantly eliminate all of the terrorists in the world forever. After all its possible because of technology.
Even if something in the field of oil processing got figured out tomorrow, it would have to be tested, and implemented. Unforseen eventualities would come up, but lets assume they are not severe. This at best could postpone the oil crash. Yes I am pessemistic about this. Oil is used for everything in this world. Not just for power or gas. With the increased demand worldwide, along with the shrinking availability of accessible cheap oil it is my belief that it is far too late for any implemented new drilling or processing techniques to have much of an impact.
I don‘t believe that it will be too far in the future that society will feel the pinch of the oil crash. Before the decade is out some people say. I will not bet on new technologies to be our saviour, but I can say I hope that I loose that bet.
I‘m not condemning the yanks for participating in an oil war. They need oil to survive, their economy and their entire society depends on it. I am just condemning them for lying about their motives for this war. Everyone knew they were bullshit, and now they are being exposed, one by one. Its too bad they are getting their asses kicked by a bunch of real terrorists, but this is a war about their future survival, so they gotta stick it out.
Religion is nothing more then an easy way to bend the public‘s mind to fit the governments plans. No one would believe their society is a few barrles away from collapse...indeed if they knew that what would happen to wall street and soforth? Stockpiling oil? Civil war?? All that caramel goodness...Muslims are easy to pick on because they have a small population of extremists who have a "terroristic" reputation, and who are already controlled by the american government. So score two times for the yanks. They are justified for occupying the land and they manage to survive for a few more years while the rest of the world scrambles to squeeze every last cheap drop of the black stuff.
****! I say lets talk about Spain again but I end up talking about oil...
The old Spanish government was naive enough to believe if they participated in this war in Iraq they would have a cut of the reserves. The new Spanish government likely believes that once oil becomes an issue, the oil fairy will come and portion out enough oil for everyone. After all so many countries did not participate in the war on Iraq, they will all have to get oil from somewhere. They will go after whoever has it then. If Spain has it then...mucho problemo for them...
The socialists are likely concerned about here and now. They want power like any other political party and right now the war is unpopular in Spain, so they have won on that ticket. It would take too long to explain all that I have said, and nobody would want to listen so they dont bother. Victory is theirs, bravo sinoirs and senoiritas.
- Reaction score
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- Points
- 410
Frankly, the only thing I want to put between me, and ‘young terrs‘ is a well aimed shot (or some well layed indirect fire)!
The price of crude is = to that of GW1. Here in Australia, in Sydney one pays today anywhere from 89.9 to 94.9/litre of ULP (unleaded petrol).
Victory is theirs, the socialists and radical Islam. The loosers are a western culture who had a knee-jerk vote after the attacks, as I am sure that was in the AQ equasion.
Its not Muslims that are ‘picked‘ on, its the fundimentalists of Islam who are attacking worldwide, from the ME to SE Asia, and all points in between.
As I have said before, its about world domination transfered to a radical Islamic state, thats what Abu Bashir the JI terr king out of Jakarta even says. He wants Australia to become a pro-Islamc state, and he has followers here in Australia who want that too, along with the demise of the western world and culture as these radicals see it.
Spain particiapted becuse it was the right thing to do, as did other countries. I think its the right thing, and besides a new country now will grow and prosper (in time), and at the end of the day, Iraq is better than it was say 1 yr ago.
Regards,
Wes
The price of crude is = to that of GW1. Here in Australia, in Sydney one pays today anywhere from 89.9 to 94.9/litre of ULP (unleaded petrol).
Victory is theirs, the socialists and radical Islam. The loosers are a western culture who had a knee-jerk vote after the attacks, as I am sure that was in the AQ equasion.
Its not Muslims that are ‘picked‘ on, its the fundimentalists of Islam who are attacking worldwide, from the ME to SE Asia, and all points in between.
As I have said before, its about world domination transfered to a radical Islamic state, thats what Abu Bashir the JI terr king out of Jakarta even says. He wants Australia to become a pro-Islamc state, and he has followers here in Australia who want that too, along with the demise of the western world and culture as these radicals see it.
Spain particiapted becuse it was the right thing to do, as did other countries. I think its the right thing, and besides a new country now will grow and prosper (in time), and at the end of the day, Iraq is better than it was say 1 yr ago.
Regards,
Wes
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The last time the west felt the pinch of an oil crisis (30 odd years ago) there were lots of predictions about oil (and other natural resources) running out in 20-30 years. Since then many unforseen technological innovations have dramatically increased the efficiency of oil exploration and production. These include (but are not limited to): directional drilling, multilateral completions, 3D seismic, logging-while-drilling, borehole imaging, bi-center bits, expandable liners, sub-sea completion technology, etc. I could go on, but I think you get the point. In the next 20-30 years, there will be other unforseen technological innovations.
While I don‘t think we should be content to sit back and say "technology is going to solve our dependance on oil", it is highly pessimistic to assume that no new technology will arrive in the next few decades, leading to a catastrophe.
Yes, there are problems, but the sky is not falling.
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The war in Afghanistan was not about oil (they don‘t have very much) and the Taliban was obviously involved with terrorism. Many people (including the Canadian government) are making fine distinctions about the reasons behind these two conflicts. I wonder if Al-Qaeda is making the same distinctions? Might they consider bombing Canada several days before an election to encourage us to pull all of our troops out of Afghanistan?
N
nbk
Guest
I did hear about the possibility of an oil pipeline being constructed in Afghanistan in order to help funnel oil to the central and south Asian markets, from Iraq most likely. As well Afghanistan could be regarded as a ‘foot in the door‘ in the eastern mideast. The Taliban was a corrupt ragtag regime which was not accepted by many governments. No one would miss them if they were to be wiped out (save the ‘terrorists‘).
The yanks have strong military presence in Saudi Arabia, and now Afghanistan, effectively controlling the west and east sides of the mideast. They also went after Iraq to gain control of another country (Saudi Arabia is not directly controlled by them). They now have Iran sorrounded, which would likely be their next target, if they can get Iraq fixed without too much more expense. Once Iran is taken care of Iraq‘s oil reserves can be shipped over land to the likes of China and India (in perticular China) so that the yanks wont have the People‘s Liberation Army knocking on their door when President Hu Jintao (or whoever is in power) decides his country needs some more oil.
Who knows, the yanks may have avoided World War 3 if they can accomplish it.
As well the oil crisis in the USA in the 1970s was due to the peak of domestic US oil suppiles. They just had to reconfigure trade, and import lots more oil to overcome it. What is predicted to happen in the next few years is the peak of the worldwide oil supplies. Where shall the US import it from if it is the same enormous price everywere on Earth? Maybe they will go to Mars?
You are quite right that technological innovations may save the day, in fact using history as your guide, as you stated, this would be likely. However viewing the USA‘s actions and its desprate attempt to secure its oil reserves and appease other world powers (and potential threats), would suggest that maybe they are not as confident as you are in these technologies.
The yanks have strong military presence in Saudi Arabia, and now Afghanistan, effectively controlling the west and east sides of the mideast. They also went after Iraq to gain control of another country (Saudi Arabia is not directly controlled by them). They now have Iran sorrounded, which would likely be their next target, if they can get Iraq fixed without too much more expense. Once Iran is taken care of Iraq‘s oil reserves can be shipped over land to the likes of China and India (in perticular China) so that the yanks wont have the People‘s Liberation Army knocking on their door when President Hu Jintao (or whoever is in power) decides his country needs some more oil.
Who knows, the yanks may have avoided World War 3 if they can accomplish it.
As well the oil crisis in the USA in the 1970s was due to the peak of domestic US oil suppiles. They just had to reconfigure trade, and import lots more oil to overcome it. What is predicted to happen in the next few years is the peak of the worldwide oil supplies. Where shall the US import it from if it is the same enormous price everywere on Earth? Maybe they will go to Mars?
You are quite right that technological innovations may save the day, in fact using history as your guide, as you stated, this would be likely. However viewing the USA‘s actions and its desprate attempt to secure its oil reserves and appease other world powers (and potential threats), would suggest that maybe they are not as confident as you are in these technologies.
T
tmbluesbflat
Guest
I see many of you believe Rumsfeld, Bush, Ashcroft, and the rest of the neocons, in spite of what they said was proven to be fairy stories. WMD bull! People get used to being laughed at, the war is about oil! Not Sadam, not Osama, not anything but oil, the rest is just an excuse to justify the murder of many thousands of people. The US is terrified that the US dollar is going to be supplanted in international oil dealings by another currency such as the Euro, if that happens the Yank financial community which is based on having other nations pay the bill for the US lifestyle, will collapse. I know some of you are very young, but there are those among you that know all this, it is available in every news paper, internet news, in the world. Every financial journal mentions it every day. The US would rather kill millions than face up to that fact! Check out a financial program on the internet called 321 gold on any given day there will be much to inform you, and this is just one of hundreds. You must give up the comic book theories!
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What kind of drivel is that? Where do you get this Anti-American socialist propaganda?
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I think they‘re going to steal all of the oil, and silently sneak it back to the US, using ultra-modern blimps. Then, in 50 years, when the oil has run out anyway, the US will have enslaved enough people to keep their economy running on near-100% manual labour.....
Man, this thread is rapidly approaching stat
Man, this thread is rapidly approaching stat
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Lets say if Spain did not have the bomb attack and the Present Gov. still whent ahead and pulled the Troop‘s out,would we still see the vailed inuendo from Bush,even though a Leader has listened to the People.
(When was the last time that happened in N.America?)
Just another thought provoking question.
(When was the last time that happened in N.America?)
Just another thought provoking question.
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TMBLUES- BTW I am 44 yrs old with a combination of over 28 yrs service in tow Commonwealth armies, so although I fell like I am 21, I am not.
Take some time to read the entire thread. Thanks.
Wanna know whats happening here terror wise, and see how real the threat is in Australasia? Try www.dailytelegraph.com.au or www.news.com.au
The threat is very real.Finatical Islamic extremism is alive and well right herere in Australia, and it has got nothing to do with oil?
Do a searxh for "sydney terror threat" and see to yourself.
Its just after 0500, and I must get to the reg‘t early today, and when I get home I hope to read some more sense on here, than this crap about oil!
Regards,
Wes
Take some time to read the entire thread. Thanks.
Wanna know whats happening here terror wise, and see how real the threat is in Australasia? Try www.dailytelegraph.com.au or www.news.com.au
The threat is very real.Finatical Islamic extremism is alive and well right herere in Australia, and it has got nothing to do with oil?
Do a searxh for "sydney terror threat" and see to yourself.
Its just after 0500, and I must get to the reg‘t early today, and when I get home I hope to read some more sense on here, than this crap about oil!
Regards,
Wes
T
tmbluesbflat
Guest
The "OIL" in question is not so much IRAQ oil but oil from the area known as the Caspian Basin, to date the largest by far of any oil deposits anywhere. The Americans(oil companies) perciptated incursions into the basin area more than twenty years ago. This was/is Russian and those incursions by ?? supporting Afghanistan guerrillas was the events that caused the russians to invade Afghanistan in the first place.
The most logical (until the demise of the Iraq regime)pipeline route was through Afghanistan. The deals were cut in the seventies, Afghanies get to keep their usual crops, the weapons and etc to be supplied by Guess Who! The propoganda curtesy of the usual Hollywood etc. It is a matter of proven history and is being taught in some very credible universities around the world including, several Canadian Universities, in economics, history, political Science etc. Invade Iraq serve the multinational oil companies, no higher calling!!
The most logical (until the demise of the Iraq regime)pipeline route was through Afghanistan. The deals were cut in the seventies, Afghanies get to keep their usual crops, the weapons and etc to be supplied by Guess Who! The propoganda curtesy of the usual Hollywood etc. It is a matter of proven history and is being taught in some very credible universities around the world including, several Canadian Universities, in economics, history, political Science etc. Invade Iraq serve the multinational oil companies, no higher calling!!
T
tmbluesbflat
Guest
What motivates "terrorists" I have always viewed the last one hundred years of occupation by military forces to strong to fight as one reason. Then there is this oil that should make the folks at home wealthy, give rise to better education and infrastructure etc. Well some folks benifit but not the people whose agriculture is destroyed their enviroment crippled, their people diseased by noxious fumes, spoiled contaminated aquifers and hundreds of other complaints ignored or riduculed by arrogant wealthy Multinational Companies, companies that have national governments on their payroll. I think these things might,after a generation or two contribute to people you may refer to as terrorists but their families and their countrymen refer to as heros!
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No matter what crap spouts from you mouth, you still dont read the info in front of you!
What does oil have to do with radical Islamic fundamentalism, and their will to desire death as much as we desire life?
They want their twisted version of their faith to be global dominated, and eveyone else dead. fact!
I dont really think they give a fat rat‘s arse about oil, just bullets, bombs and thru intimdation like Spains caving in, they see weakness as victory.
Maybe the Spaniards voted their govt out because they directed the blame on ETA, and not AQ or similar terr org?
Wait out...
Wes
What does oil have to do with radical Islamic fundamentalism, and their will to desire death as much as we desire life?
They want their twisted version of their faith to be global dominated, and eveyone else dead. fact!
I dont really think they give a fat rat‘s arse about oil, just bullets, bombs and thru intimdation like Spains caving in, they see weakness as victory.
Maybe the Spaniards voted their govt out because they directed the blame on ETA, and not AQ or similar terr org?
Wait out...
Wes
T
tmbluesbflat
Guest
GW the similarities between Bushes USA and NAZI germany are striking indeed The PATRIOT ACT for one(I believe this is from Ben Franklin"the man that would give up a bit of freedom for a bit of security, deserves neither" Bushes grand father, along with an industrialist named Thyysen was both a financier of the Nazi Party, and launderer of Nazi Monies etc And indeed were the first dollar donors to Adolph Himself, I believe the first sum in about 1926 was some 25,000 USD a princely sum in those times.. They were also finacial adsvisors to the party and were warned by the President to Stop trading with the enemy
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tmbluesbflat
Guest
Also remember that the NAZI PARTY was very highly regarded in the USA, to the point of being a serious political threat. Do not believe that those sentiments disappeared with WW11, it was convenient to hide their sympathies after Pearl Harbour. Just about a month before that a certain highly regarded trans Atlantic Pilot gave a speach about how the people in the USA should admire Herr Hitler and his friend Benito!
T
tmbluesbflat
Guest
You need to know what causes a man or a religion or a political movement to get motivated enough to create what you refer to as terrorists. Jihad is not a casual I don‘t like you, it is a reaction, in the case of Mid East religion, the reaction has been coming for about a thousand years, remember the religious nut cases refered to as CRUSADERS! If you do not understand what motivates your enemy he will kill you, if you blindly follow some crack pot religious doctrine he will kill you, so learn or DIE!
