The Kirpan court decision

[FredDaHead]

And that was, ye gods, 20 years ago. So well over 20 years of these things being in schools with no problems.

That just pushed the credibility of your argument way down. Just because things happened a certain way twenty years ago doesn't mean it still is the same today. Twenty years ago the AIDS virus wasn't as prominent as it is now, and people weren't wearing condoms as much. Twenty years ago, we didn't have shooting sprees in schools. Twenty years ago... you get the idea.

My point is, while your argument seems valid, the fact is that you're basing it on things that happened before those kids were born.

By that same token, I could say all Germans are Nazis because 60 years ago, most of them were. I could also say Russians are lying commie bastards, because fifteen years ago, they were. But it wouldn't be a very convincing argument, now would it?

Like I said, valid point, probably, but the reasoning behind it seems flawed.

I've never really thought of i that way, If it's been going on for so long and nothing has happened i see nothing wrong with it. And there are a lot of easier ways of killing or injuring people ie) guns.

Sure, a gun is generally more efficient at killing than a knife. But a knife is more efficient than a pen. And a pen is more efficient than a popsicle stick. Ok, I'm pushing it, but you know what I mean, right?

 

[Pte_Martin]

[quote ]
Sure, a gun is generally more efficient at killing than a knife. But a knife is more efficient than a pen. And a pen is more efficient than a popsicle stick. Ok, I'm pushing it, but you know what I mean, right?
[/quote]

yes i understand, but, I'm just guessing, that this knife isn't extremely sharp. And as said on this post that it is worn under clothing and is hard to get it, Wouldn't it be easier just to grab that pen or pencil and use it, or a bat something that they wouldn't have to "dig" at to get at

 

[Guy. E]

OK Kids, from now on, we use plastic scissors, crayons, cardboard rulers, play dough in wood working and easy bake ovens in home-ec because you can stab or cut people with pens, wood/ steel rulers, hand saws/ chisels, kitchen knives and silver ware.

We are sorry for the inconvenience. we hope you will have a nice and normal child hood.

You know, I have herd more stories of my dad getting together with his friends when he was about 10 and shooting each other with bb guns in the bush then I have of kirpan incidents in schools.

 

[kcdist]

Straw man argument.

Perhaps.

However, when is the last time a commercial plane has been highjacked in Canada? Never? If so, why do we bother with security screening? Does anyone really think there is any reasonable chance that a Westjet flight between Edmonton and Fort McMurray will ever be highjacked by terrorists? Of course not. But the scenario exists, and we spend major bucks to take preventative action on the extremely unlikely possibility that it COULD happen. 

I would suggest my scenario is far more likely to occur sometime in the next 20 years.

RecceDG...were any of your Sikh friends mentally unstable? Probably not, but would the likelihood of them using their Kurpan have increased if they were? Trust me, there are mentally unstable Sikhs as there are mentally unstable people of every religion. Add the immaturity consistent with youth and you've got an even greater likelihood of a problem.

In my short life, I've dealt with Drunken Muslims (taboo), Pedophile Church workers (double taboo), and a thieving Cop (off the scale). To tell me a Baptized 14 year-old Sikh would NEVER draw his Kirpan in anger while at school is simply not believable. And if the possibility even remotely exists, full size, lethal Kirpans should not be allowed in schools.
(As mentioned previously, I'm okay with a miniaturized version)

 

[Michael OLeary]

Frederick,

You've skipped a step in your logic.

RecceDG wrote "20 years of these things being in schools with no problems". - That's twenty continuous years without issues.

He did not say that because, at one point in time, 20 years ago, there was no issue, therefore there is none today.  He was calling upon 20 full years as his example.

Your counterpoints fail because:

- although there were Nazis 60 years ago; Germans have not been Nazis for the past 60 years, the counterpoint lacks the comparative continuity of example of the original point.

- although 20 years ago there was not the awareness of AIDS and its precaustions, those precautions came into common use only after the recognition of the risk; it was a longterm societal change as a result of understanding that the problem was real.  Nobody said 20 years ago that AIDS 'might happen' therefore 'we must take all measures to avoid it.'

I now return you to your regularly scheduled emotional argument.

 

[DG-41]

Twenty years ago the AIDS virus wasn't as prominent as it is now, and people weren't wearing condoms as much. Twenty years ago, we didn't have shooting sprees in schools.

False analogy, aka "comparing apples and oranges".

These things have been in the school system for well over 20 years. Nobody can identify a single time during that 20 years where they have been used as a weapon in a school. I personally witnessed Kirpan-bearing Sikhs in situations of extreme personal duress that might have encouraged the use of the Kirpan as a weapon, but they chose not to. It is safe to say that Sikhs have been placed in similar situations of extreme personal duress in the intervining years, and they too have chosen not to use their Kirpans as weapons as well.

That does not automatically preclude any Sikh from using the Kirpan as a weapon in the future, but it does suggest that Kirpan weapon-use in Canadian schools is so exceptionally rare that it has never happened. Conversely, I have seen a chain-link fence used as a weapon in a Canadian school (and by a Sikh no less). Does that mean that chain-link fencing should be banned?

RecceDG...were any of your Sikh friends mentally unstable?

Clinically? I don't know. A couple were a little touched... but then that described most of us. Try growing up in the middle of nowhere with 10 months of winter and two months of crappy skiing and see how sane YOU stay.

But I offer you that somebody truly mentally unstable is a potential danger no matter WHAT is at hand. If somebody snaps, all you need is a handy rock. And in a high school, there are scissors, craft knives, screwdrivers... any number of potential lethal weapons readily available if one is truly motivated to use them.

You make a better argument for mental stability screening than for banning a Kirpan.


DG

 

[FredDaHead]

yes i understand, but, I'm just guessing, that this knife isn't extremely sharp. And as said on this post that it is worn under clothing and is hard to get it, Would it be easier to just grab that pen or pencil and use it, or a bat something that they wouldn't have to "dig" at to get at

While I don't think a random person could do much damage with a pen (yes, it would hurt, but not to the level of a stabbing with an actual knife) I agree with you on that one. Though I don't think most people have a bat on hand most of the time.

OK Kids, from now on, we use plastic scissors, crayons, cardboard rulers, play dough in wood working and easy bake ovens in home-ec because you can stab or cut people with pens, wood/ steel rulers, hand saws/ chisels, kitchen knives and silver ware.

We are sorry for the inconvenience. we hope you will have a nice and normal child hood.

You know, I have herd more stories of my dad getting together with his friends when he was about 10 and shooting each other with bb guns in the bush then I have of kirpan incidents in schools.

If I had the mindset of a Liberal pinko-commie (not saying you're one or anything) I'd say the only reason we haven't heard of Kirpan incidents is because of the Sikh lobby on the government and the Tamil Tigers giving big bucks to our leaders.

Fortunately, I'm not blind to reality. However, I still stand by what I said previously and will say again that just because something hasn't happened, does not mean nothing will. Before Munich, people didn't think a hostage situation could turn this bloody. Before Marc Lepine went into Polytechnique and shot a whole bunch of women, nobody thought something like that would happen in Canada. Before 9/11, nobody thought terrorists would use planes as missiles. Until some Sikh kid kills another kid with his dagger, people will say "oh, it's not gonna happen."

I don't agree with your (I hope) exaggeration of taking any danger away from kids. Obviously we must have some measure of restraint. I do think, however, that the line must be drawn at items which are primarily weapons being brought in schools. While you can hit someone with a baseball bat, stab someone with a pen, or burn yourself on an oven, the chance of maliciously injuring someone with those, compared to the overwhelming use of those items, is so low as to be statistically insignificant.

Mr. O'Leary, I'll admit I misread RecceDG's post. However, we've had airplanes going around for many, many years before they got turned into missiles. Like I said earlier, just because something hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't.

RecceDG, like it was pointed out earlier, just because something that's not primarily a weapon can be used as a weapon, doesn't mean it should be banned. However, something that IS primarily a weapon, should be. Or at least it should be restricted, IE firearms.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
While I don't think a random person could do much damage with a pen (yes, it would hurt, but not to the level of a stabbing with an actual knife)

Very wrong thinking......

 

[Michael OLeary]

If I had the mindset of a Liberal pinko-commie (not saying you're one or anything) I'd say the only reason we haven't heard of Kirpan incidents is because of the Sikh lobby on the government and the Tamil Tigers giving big bucks to our leaders.

Thank you, invoking the conspiracy theory angle, even if you do it in a sideways manner, always lends credibility to a good debate.

Mr. O'Leary, I'll admit I misread RecceDG's post. However, we've had airplanes going around for many, many years before they got turned into missiles. Like I said earlier, just because something hasn't happened doesn't mean it won't.

Although I do believe we still allow them in our airspace, perhaps based on the low probablity of further occurrences.

 

[DG-41]

While you can hit someone with a baseball bat, stab someone with a pen, or burn yourself on an oven, the chance of maliciously injuring someone with those, compared to the overwhelming use of those items, is so low as to be statistically insignificant.

Where are you from?

Sports equipment gets used in real-world fights all the time. Baseball bats, hockey sticks, golf clubs... hell, I know of a case where a guy threw a DISCUS at someone (he missed).

The use of sports equipment in school fights happens all the time. The use of Kirpans in schoolfights has, to the best of anybody's knowledge, never happened. There's a FAR better chance of being hit by a baseball bat than being stabbed by a Kirpan in a Canadian school.

And you want to ban the Kirpan?

DG

 

[FredDaHead]

Quote,
While I don't think a random person could do much damage with a pen (yes, it would hurt, but not to the level of a stabbing with an actual knife)

Very wrong thinking......

I didn't say there was zero chance of hurting someone with a pen. I'm just saying getting stabbed with a knife has a bigger chance of causing life-threatening than being stabbed with a pen. Both can be dangerous, of course. I never said the opposite.

Thank you, invoking the conspiracy theory angle, even if you do it in a sideways manner, always lends credibility to a good debate.

I was just saying it before a real conspiracy crackpot comes around and says something about it. Might as well throw in some humour into this dry debate.

Although I do believe we still allow them in our airspace, perhaps based on the low probablity of further occurrences.

We also put forward stricter restrictions and regulations to help avoid a repeat of 9/11. I don't see any such restriction on Kirpans, at least not in precise terms or any actual verification of the enforcement of those restrictions.

Where are you from?

Sports equipment gets used in real-world fights all the time. Baseball bats, hockey sticks, golf clubs... hell, I know of a case where a guy threw a DISCUS at someone (he missed).

The use of sports equipment in school fights happens all the time. The use of Kirpans in schoolfights has, to the best of anybody's knowledge, never happened. There's a FAR better chance of being hit by a baseball bat than being stabbed by a Kirpan in a Canadian school.

And you want to ban the Kirpan?

DG

Where are you from? Growing up, I was involved in fights, and some people threatened each other with bats and whatnot, but nobody ever started hitting each other. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that it doesn't happen as often as you would like us to believe.

And yes, I want to ban the Kirpan because it's a weapon. Like someone else pointed out, kids can't carry a gerber or a swiss army knife in school, because it has a blade (which is usually about as sharp as a butterknife). A lot of my friends had swiss army knives when I was a kid, but nobody ever stabbed someone with one.

So if, because a certain weapon (a Kirpan) is seldom/never used in a fight, it's fine to carry one around, what about other potential weapons that are seldom/never used in fights? Can someone carry a katana to school, because he lives the Ninjutsu (sp?) or Bushido way? (I'm a bit fuzzy on terms.. feel free to correct me on the proper term to use.) After all, I don't think there are many, if any, cases of people in a schoolyard fight using a katana.

 

[Guy. E]

HAHA, so your saying that because people aren't aloud to have them at school knives don't show up? where have you been the past few years? If anyone wants to bring a knife to school, they will do it. I know lots of guys who did in shop class, even I did.

Saying "No" wont stop anything form happening in the future. The basic fact is if you want to hurt someone or kill them, it will happen. I personally can accept someone in my school with one no problem.

 

[Scott]

HAHA, so your saying that because people aren't aloud to have them at school knives don't show up? where have you been the past few years? If anyone wants to bring a knife to school, they will do it. I know lots of guys who did in shop class, even I did.

So because we have people who will still do it is a great reason to abandon law and order now and for the future? Absurd. Glad you're proud that you decided to help the situation by bringing your own sharps to school : I know that it will probably always happen but that doesn't make it right.

I personally can accept someone in my school with one no problem.

I am glad that you can accept it, how many do you think will agree with you? My bet is you're speaking for the minority.

 

[FredDaHead]

HAHA, so your saying that because people aren't aloud to have them at school knives don't show up? where have you been the past few years? If anyone wants to bring a knife to school, they will do it. I know lots of guys who did in shop class, even I did.

I specifically stated, in my post, that people go into their school with knives. However, like Scott said, it's not a good reason to abandon law and order.

Saying "No" wont stop anything form happening in the future. The basic fact is if you want to hurt someone or kill them, it will happen. I personally can accept someone in my school with one no problem.

So you'd be cool with someone, say, bringing a machete to school?

 

[Kat Stevens]

The likelihood of a devout Sikh using his kirpan as a weapon, is about as likely as a Trappist monk strangling someone with his rosary, I would think.

 

[FredDaHead]

The likelihood of a devout Sikh using his kirpan as a weapon, is about as likely as a Trappist monk strangling someone with his rosary, I would think.

If we were talking about adults, I'd agree fully. However, we're talking about kids and teenagers. And we all know kids and teens are impulsive as hell.

To compare a kid to a monk is to compare apples to steel rivets.

 

[Kat Stevens]

But to compare reverence for the symbols of the chosen faith is not...

 

[Fishbone Jones]

While I don't think a random person could do much damage with a pen (yes, it would hurt, but not to the level of a stabbing with an actual knife) I agree with you on that one.

Ever see Grosse Pointe Blank (1997), with John Cusak?  ;D

 

[Michael OLeary]

I was just saying it before a real conspiracy crackpot comes around and says something about it. Might as well throw in some humour into this dry debate.

And I was trying to defuse it before your "real conspiracy crackpot" decided he's been offered an opening in this thread.  Opening the floor to disruptive tangents does not support credible debate.

We also put forward stricter restrictions and regulations to help avoid a repeat of 9/11. I don't see any such restriction on Kirpans, at least not in precise terms or any actual verification of the enforcement of those restrictions.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/kirpan/

March 2, 2006:
The Supreme Court of Canada rules 8-0 that a total ban of the kirpan in schools violates the Charter of Rights because it infringes on the Charter’s guarantees of religious freedom. But it does allow school boards to impose some restrictions on the carrying of kirpans to ensure public safety.

"Religious tolerance is a very important value of Canadian society," Justice Louise Charron writes in the unanimous decision. "A total prohibition against wearing a kirpan to school undermines the value of this religious symbol and sends students the message that some religious practices do not merit the same protection as others."

The high court says if the kirpan is sealed and hidden under clothes, there’s little chance that students could use it as a weapon. "There are many objects in schools that could be used to commit violent acts and that are much more easily obtained by students, such as scissors, pencils and baseball bats," writes Madam Justice Charron.

The SCC seems to have met your requirement of additional controls, and as far as we know, there hasn't even been an incident yet.

 

[FredDaHead]

Ever see Grosse Pointe Blank (1997), with John Cusak?  ;D

I heard that movie wasn't worth renting. But I'll assume it involves someone sticking a pen through someone?