The Kirpan court decision

[DSB]

I agree with your point! Follow our rules, if you don't like them why did you move here in the first place?

I didn't move....I was born here.....as was most of my family. 

My in-laws have been living in the UK for over 4 generations.  My great grandfather was fighting with the British in Basra before WW1.  Both my wife’s grandfathers were POWs after the fall of Singapore in WW2.  Sikhs are not a recent addition to the western world.

As stated earlier, Sikhs have been in Canada for more than 100 years.  In Brampton 3 of the 4 MPs are Sikhs, (two of which have Turbans).  One of those MPs wears his Kirpan in the House of Commons.

Somehow I see this degenerating in the discussion on Canadian identity.

DSB

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Careful DSB or I'll stab you with the pointy end of my cross.....

KEEP IT ON TOPIC PEOPLE!!

 

[Conquistador]

The Sikhs I know are responsible, level headed people, and I wouldn't even know if they were wearing a kirpan. Personally, I'm okay with it as long as it's not like 3 feet long. But what I do have a problem with, is if some dumbass "converts" and sticks a knife in his pants and walks into school, or any other place, then cries discrimination when he's called out on it.

 

[QV]

The Sikhs I know are responsible, level headed people, and I wouldn't even know if they were wearing a kirpan. Personally, I'm okay with it as long as it's not like 3 feet long. But what I do have a problem with, is if some dumbass "converts" and sticks a knife in his pants and walks into school, or any other place, then cries discrimination when he's called out on it.

But what if it was 3 feet long?  Would there still have been the same ruling from the SCC?  Like you said though I think this court decision just opened up a boat load of trouble because now non-practicing sikhs could carry the knife and make the religeous claim.

No need for knives in schools, IMHO.  I don't care whose religeon it is.  There are a lot of religeous practices in the world that would be considered unsafe or unacceptable to others.  It shouldn't always be the country of Canada bending this way and that for minority rights, its give and take.  Having said that though, the kid in the court decision moved to another school when he couldn't carry at the first one.  So why is it even a big deal?  Do they want to carry in ALL schools?  If I don't like the way a particular institution is run, I will move on.   

 

[Taylor187]

Withdrawn

 

[Michael OLeary]

Just like Islam means peace, and Islam should peach peace eh?

I'm not going to play the weapon card. I believe Sihk young men understand thier faith and thier own laws on the use of thier Kirpan. I'l jump into the frying pan of religion. In a public school, it has absolutly no place, as do giant crosses hanging from walls or statues and busts of jesus. Canada is a multicultural mix match land. Unlike other countrys, we encourage our new legal and illegal citizens to keep thier own faiths and ideals which is wonderful for them, they can keep them inside thier places of worship or homes not in a public school. This isnt a racist comment towards any one religion or people, its towards all. Doesnt matter if its jesus, budda, allah. It has no place in our schools.

Just out of curiosity, I'd like to see your proposal for the banning of cross pendants and how you would convince the nation that it is in out best "Canadian" interests to abolish breaks spcifically tailored around Easter and Christmas.

 

[Kat Stevens]

We've already done that by calling it "the holliday season", and "annual chocolate eggs 'n' bunnies days", haven't we?

 

[Taylor187]

Withdrawn.

 

[Slim]

I'm not talking about abolishing anything Michael O'Leary. Religion will always be apart of many peoples lives, but isnt it obvious that religion while helping many people live the life they want to live, causes conflict everywhere it goes? Teens are already screwed up enough, adding the element of religious divisions in a school is just another thing to keep thier minds off learning something useful other then how to roll a proper joint or how to pronouce ebonix words.

Lets be careful with the pointy finger please...

Keep it happy.

Staff

 

[Michael OLeary]

taylor187,

In your earlier post you advocated keeping all religion out of schools, now you support it in principal for the balance it can bring to the lives of those who desire it. It would seem that Sikhs only wish that same quiet freedom to practice elements of their faith.

 

[Taylor187]

My apoligies, I dont have the mental stamina, patience or level head as most of you have to wade into this argument.

 

[FredDaHead]

(...)a kirpan, to my knowledge, has never been used as a weapon in a school setting. (...)

Before 9/11, nobody had used planes as missiles in the Western world. What's your point?

The whole thing stinks, to me. We took crosses out of school for a reason. We wanted a religious-free school. How does allowing different faiths to bring prominent symbols of their faiths make school more religion-free?

And also, the "race/religion" card is played so much by all the minority groups, I can't help but feel sickened by it. I remember the story of the high school (?) kid who was "assaulted" at a basketball court and had his hair cut, and said it was a hate crime and the cops were all over it. Turns out nobody had attacked him and he'd cut his own hair. People like that ruin it for other people.

Also, one thing I couldn't help but notice, was how the media said the kirpan kid was speaking only in English because he was forced to get out of a French public school and went to an English private school. That's bullshit. He could've gone to a French private school; there are lots of those. I digress, though.

I guess my point is that we, Canada, have decided to not allow religion in schools. Like other people pointed out, all elements of Christianity has been taken out. Why allow other religions in? Seems to me like the Supreme Court, like most of Canada, has a problem putting it's pants on and saying "THAT'S ENOUGH."

 

[Slim]

My apoligies, I dont have the mental stamina, patience or level head as most of you have to wade into this argument.

Of course you do...Anyone does have the right to express their views about a given subject here. What you have to remember is to try to present a factual, non-emotional argument that does not single out others or reply to other posts with sarcasm. Sometimes its not an easy thing to do and we have lots of practice at it.

If Mike O'Leary is wrong about something he owns up to it...But he's very careful and knows how to keep emotion and fact separate.

maybe read more and post less for the next little while until you get the hang of it.

Cheers

Slim
STAFF

 

[Redeye]

You would think this would be a no-brainer.  Kirpans are small, ornamental daggers.  I know numerous Sikhs who carry them, and they're not even visible normally.  They're no more dangerous than a lot of things you'd find in a school.  There's no reason to suspect allowing them to be carried out of sight creates any more danger.  If someone screws it up for everyone, so be it, but to presume it's going to cause problems isn't right.

 

[DSB]

A tangent

And also, the "race/religion" card is played so much by all the minority groups, I can't help but feel sickened by it. I remember the story of the high school (?) kid who was "assaulted" at a basketball court and had his hair cut, and said it was a hate crime and the cops were all over it. Turns out nobody had attacked him and he'd cut his own hair. People like that ruin it for other people.

A Dumbass…one who was universally recognised.

I guess my point is that we, Canada, have decided to not allow religion in schools. Like other people pointed out, all elements of Christianity has been taken out.

In Peel
Religion has not been taken out of schools.  It is not taboo; it is not the boogie man.  Christianity has NOT been taken out.  It is there in the curriculum,(our history, our language, our charter, federation), and in the festivals we celebrate.  It is celebrated, like all faiths and traditions are.  Most of our holidays are Christian holidays.  No one is pushing or hiding Christianity in our schools.

 

[DSB]

But what if it was 3 feet long?  Would there still have been the same ruling from the SCC?  Like you said though I think this court decision just opened up a boat load of trouble because now non-practicing sikhs could carry the knife and make the religeous claim.

A lot of boards have size restrictions which have been in place for years.  I think this is in-line with the SCC ruling.

 

[Slim]

Most of our holidays are Christian holidays.  No one is pushing or hiding Christianity in our schools.

Just out of curiousity what is happening with Christmas, Easter and what-not these days in the Peel school system?

 

[DSB]

Just out of curiousity what is happening with Christmas, Easter and what-not these days in the Peel school system?

There are still there Slim.  I think they may refer to Christmas holidays as Winter break.  Easter is still Easter.  The Board is really trying hard to talk about everything. 

It has to do with making all students feel valued and appreciated.  Last time I checked there are a lot, (majority), of Christian/Catholic students.

We celebrate everyone.  They have announcements on Ramadan, Eid, Visakhi, Diwali, Easter, Lent, Hanukah you name it.  The board posts huge lists of holidays and even recognises some Wiccan(sp?) festivals.

Believe or not every school I’ve worked in has had Christmas trees, (and the area I teach in is less than 50% Christian).    The media blows the idea of death of ‘religion’ in schools way out of proportion.


Glad to know your still tick'n Slim.  Kos is gonna be a teacher too!

 

[armchair]

Kipan have been allowed in the schools of many Provinces B.C. Alberta,Sask and Ontario for up to ten years now.
I do not see that the court decision as bad thing.It is in keeping with  Nation policy of Muti Culturism and Rights under
the Canadian Constitution.We as Canadian should be happy the system is working.Some many think this contrary
to Canadian tradition.But as Canadian we are evolving.We have more ethnic diversity now.I see this as a benefit
to Canadian Society as a whole.

 

[FredDaHead]

In Peel
Religion has not been taken out of schools.  It is not taboo; it is not the boogie man.  Christianity has NOT been taken out.  It is there in the curriculum,(our history, our language, our charter, federation), and in the festivals we celebrate.  It is celebrated, like all faiths and traditions are.  Most of our holidays are Christian holidays.  No one is pushing or hiding Christianity in our schools.

I call bullshit. Ever hear of a "holiday tree" or the "winter break" replacing a "Christmas tree" and the "Christmas break"? The days off are Christian-based, yes, just like most Christian holidays are pagan holidays the Christians took over. Basically, the anti-religion crowd is basically doing to Christians what Christians have done to pagans: steal their holidays and make them their own.

As far as "our history, our language, our charter, federation", you're so far out in the left field I'm not even sure I want to touch it. There is religion in our history, but for a good chunk of it, it played a marginal part. (It was there, but most people used it as a pretext if they talked about it at all) As for language, where's the religion in French and English? Except for most French curse words, I don't see it. Our charter specifically says all religions are cool, and doesn't specify that Christianity is different. And Federation? Please.

Now, I'm going to assume you meant that our CULTURE is not taken out of schools. There you would be right, at least in part. But as far as religion is concerned, Christianity is probably the most taboo religion in schools. Except for Satanism, maybe.

Now, I don't want to hijack this thread too much. So, mods, if you think I'm digressing too much from the topic at hand, feel free to delete/move this. I'd appreciate if you tell me, though.

(You posted while I was writing, so I'll just add my new comments down here)

Easter is still called "Easter" only because "Chocolate-and-Rabbits weekend" isn't catchy enough. It doesn't signify anything anymore, it just happens to be a name that has a religious background. It's like St. John's (the city). Sure, it's called by a Christian name, but there's nothing inherently Christian about it.

You said yourself it recognizes "some" Wiccan (yes you got the spelling right) festivals. Why doesn't it recognize all of them? Might sound silly, but if we're recognizing everything everybody does, it has to be applied completely. So let's start bringing forth Satanist rituals, and Rastafarian (not sure on the spelling) holidays and whatnot.

Also, something unrelated to what DSB has said, but that I find interesting, is how people are labelled as ignorant if they call the kirpan a weapon. That's as if I called everyone ignorant because they don't understand the intricacies of the KKK. Yes, they're a violent group (and I don't agree with them) but the burning crosses and hoods and such aren't inherently violent/racist/whatever. So I guess the KKK really are ok, right? After all, they have the "right to assemble" and the "right to demonstrate" and "freedom of speech", do they not?