The Kirpan court decision

[Michael Dorosh]

Yes it is. Its my opinion that the average junior high/high schooler doesn't have the maturity to understand cultural differences and the likelyhood of an incident occuring is great.

And you don't give Canadians nearly enough credit - perhaps the newer generations are more open-minded than you apparently are.  But since DSB has effectively and elegantly shut you and your "arguments" down, I don't think there is anything else to say in this thread.

Well done, DSB.  And thanks.

 

[Slim]

OK...

It seems that people have some real credible and non-inflamitory posts to contribute so I'm taking the lock off for now.

Play nice or it goes right back on again.
Cheers

Slim
STAFF

 

[clasper]

I don't have a problem with people carrying innocuous little blades in school (personally, I carried a Swiss Army Knife all through high school- it would have made a much better weapon than the pen that someone was referring to earlier).

However, I do have a problem if little Johnny the atheist gets sent home from school for carrying the same blade that little Kamaljeet the Sikh is allowed to carry.  If there is a reasonable safety rule for the students (like no dangerous weapons in class), then it should be followed by all.

DSB:  I've never actually seen a Kirpan up close, and I don't think I've met someone who carries one.  I've always assumed that it was just a small dagger, but still sizeable enough that it wouldn't be allowed in all situations (like for example, on an airplane).  Are Sikhs required to remove their Kirpans for air travel?  I would guess that a Kirpan would be a more dangerous weapon than the file from my toenail clippers.

 

[DSB]

Before 9/11 they would ask some people and not others.  My grandparents were never asked.  I used to just check mine in my luggage.  Nowadays most Sikhs will put theirs in their luggage. Some Sikhs refuse to do that. Once in a while people set up flight chartered by Amritdhari Sikhs in order to get around that.

People leave their Kirpans on when they shower and bath, (they’ll wear the same on or a different one).  You sleep with it, play with it, it’s always there.

DSB

 

[DSB]

I’m not interesting in flaming anyone just some quick points for Frederik G.

a) I have worked in three schools in Peel for the last 5 years; the last two having 65-75 teachers.  We’ve always had a Christmas tree up in December.  Its put up and decorated by students and kept in the front entrance.  I have never ever heard it referred to as a ‘holiday tree’.

b) Missionary work, religious oppression, and religious education are huge parts in the formation of Canada.

c) Schools recognise as many holidays and celebrations as they can.  The school I work at is about 45% south Asian, (maybe more).  We celebrate about 5-6 South Asian festivals.  Schools look at their demographics and then focus on celebrations that might acknowledge those students, (by that I mean displays, assemblies, announcements).

Often they group holidays together in themes, (to celebrate commonalties).  An example is the Festivals of lights, (Christmas, Hanukah, Diwali, there are a few more that tie into this).

d)  The majority of Peel is Christian/ Catholic.  The board is not silly enough to push those children aside and not value them.

e)  Rastafarians can grow their dreads and wear their ‘hats’ in schools.  I’ve seen a Rasta teacher.

f)  There is no room for hate in schools.  Be that racial based, gender based, sexual orientation based.    A good example is Gay rights.  I’ve been at schools were the community is really anti-gay, (often for religious reasons).  If children use slurs like fagot or homo they would have been suspended.  That’s why I see the KKK having no place in schools, (do they have a positive agenda in anyway?).

g) There is no freedom of speech in schools.  You can not say what you want when ever you want: I agree with this.


Schools are an environment to show our children what an ideal society might look like.  One where everyone plays together, uses appropriate language, and behaviour: one where kids try to understand each other, and are not afraid to ask questions.  It can be a real a positive environment, (at least in middle schools).  It’s unfortunate that society isn’t always that way.

DSB

 

[SHELLDRAKE!!]

DSB,

I agree with everything you have said however it bothers me that there is still school systems that cater to what they believe is right.

With the Kirpan ruling, one faiths religiouse beliefs are now defended by a court decision but what about a final court ruling for all the other faiths?

We should be able to have our kids yearly callendar printed up with every religiouse holiday on it and no one should have to tell us we can't use words like Christmas.

Personally I think Religion has no place in public schools, thats what private schools are for. But now it seems the Kirpan is the only clearly accepted symbol allowed in our school systems.

Just a thought.

 

[DSB]

They do have calendars made like that, and at least some of the kids have them.  I do admit schools do shy away from elaborate religious discussion, (rightly so).  The discussions they do have are often are framed with cultural awareness in mind.

 

[Cannonfodder]

  What I find disturbing is the amount of unregulated expermentation that school boards conduct under the guise of  de' jour sensitivities . The Kirpan is a none issue you should not be able to carry a weapon to school regardless of religion or beliefs , it sets a dangerous precidence . Societies will not bend its rules to accomidate everyone , this is valuable lesson that childern should learn early in life via the education system  so it is not a surprise later in life .

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
But now it seems the Kirpan is the only clearly accepted symbol allowed in our school systems.

I disagree, its the only one that required someone to go to court to wear it.......

As long as it is rendered useless[ or close to it], whats the difference between it and a long cross or a sharp star of David?

 

[DSB]

  What I find disturbing is the amount of unregulated expermentation that school boards conduct under the guise of  de' jour sensitivities . The Kirpan is a none issue you should not be able to carry a weapon to school regardless of religion or beliefs , it sets a dangerous precidence . Societies will not bend its rules to accomidate everyone , this is valuable lesson that childern should learn early in life via the education system  so it is not a surprise later in life .

The Kirpan is allowed in all work places, (the two exceptions are airplanes, and some court rooms).  Universities have no problem, (even in the states), the army includes them in the dress regs, many Canadian Police officers wear them.  What false reality are we preparing these kids for?  In this case anyway,  I see no surprises popping up.

 

[SHELLDRAKE!!]

Or would it not serve a better purpose to keep public schools religion free so that all faiths (or lack thereof) would not have these problems. As mentioned before, the student in question with the Kirpan simply chose a school that catered to his religion.

I have nothing against any faith but it bothers me that a simple solution could be to set up one set of rules that will apply to all faiths in schools instead of constantly making ammendments.

The Kirpan is allowed in all work places, (the two exceptions are airplanes, and some court rooms).  Universities have no problem, (even in the states), the army includes them in the dress regs, many Canadian Police officers wear them.  What false reality are we preparing these kids for?  In this case anyway,  I see no surprises popping up.

Again I believe the issue here is the immaturity of grade school kids when dealing with the issue of Kirpans. Not accusing the carriers of Kirpans but maybee more so the school bully that may see stealing a Kirpan as a fun thing to do.

 

[Cannonfodder]

 I guess if they are rendered inert they would be okay , afterall an innocent baseball bat could be used as a weapon and they can be found in schools . My comments were more geared to other movements in the education system not the Kirpan .

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Again I believe the issue here is the immaturity of grade school kids when dealing with the issue of Kirpans. Not accusing the carriers of Kirpans but maybee more so the school bully that may see stealing a Kirpan as a fun thing to do.

You keep harping on this - are you a school teacher?  How many schools have you physically set foot in during the last 20 years?  I'm curious. Seems to me like you're building a straw man.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Just go with the touchy feely freedom machine. Just be ready to drag it all back out, if and, when someone gets stabbed at school with a Kirpan. Only then will you have a legitimate beef.

Don't forget, Rasta's have a legitimate, recognised religion also. However they can't hold meetings in the city park, and toke away on humongous splifs.

 

[SHELLDRAKE!!]

You keep harping on this - are you a school teacher?  How many schools have you physically set foot in during the last 20 years?  I'm curious. Seems to me like you're building a straw man.

I am a parent who has dealt with situations in which students at my kids school have brought box cutters(because they saw them on the news), handguns and other items to school because (in their defence statements) "they didn't know better."

I would suggest you re read these and any other of my posts, and maybee you would notice I am giving a personal opinion rather than your attitude of assuming only yours counts.

The purpose of a discussion forum is to discuss matters based on facts and actual experience, alot of which IN MY OPINION you lack.

 

[SoF]

This is such waste of time for the courts. That kid needs to stfu, put his frickin knife...er i mean kirpan in his dam closet, go to school and do his fricken homework. In cases like these, religion should not overrule school law. What if my religion sais I need to carry a balisong with me at all times eh or someother persons religion sais he needs to carry a 9mm with him. It's crap like this that pisses me off.

 

[chanman]

I find school regulations on knives or sharp/pointy objects in general to be rather odd, given the scalpels in the science classrooms, the various saws in woodwork, the multitude of knives in the cooking classes, the paper cutters and the knives in art classes.

 

[Nemo888]

I've seen Kirpans as small as 1 inch long, I was even given one as a gift. At Christmas of all times. Schools are still allowed to limit their size and sharpness. If a one inch pretend knife pisses you off that much get a life. What a tempest in a teacup.

 

[Pte_Martin]

This is such waste of time for the courts. That kid needs to stfu, put his frickin knife...er i mean kirpan in his dam closet, go to school and do his fricken homework. In cases like these, religion should not overrule school law. What if my religion sais I need to carry a balisong with me at all times eh or someother persons religion sais he needs to carry a 9mm with him. It's crap like this that pisses me off.

i totally agree with you it's not that a knife offends me, but once you start letting one religion do want they want then what's stopping the other ones

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Both of you shake yer friggin heads and then tell what symbol of your religion you can't wear to school.....