• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

The Kirpan court decision

SoF said:
This is such waste of time for the courts. That kid needs to stfu, put his frickin knife...er i mean kirpan in his dam closet, go to school and do his fricken homework. In cases like these, religion should not overrule school law. What if my religion sais I need to carry a balisong with me at all times eh or someother persons religion sais he needs to carry a 9mm with him. It's crap like this that pisses me off.

This post infuriates me.  To me your attitude bleeds ignorance.  My Canada does not ask people to check their faith at the door. 

The kirpan is different than a lot of western religious symbols.  The Kirpan is part of the Sikh uniform.  You wear it when you become Amritdhari.  It would be akin to asking Catholics/Christians to refuse baptism to come to school.

Wearing a cross is very different than wearing a Kirpan, (and in no means do I want to take away form the symbolism and importance the cross has for Christians).
 
Why is this even an issue?  I remember the kirpan coming up when I was in high school in Scarborough in 1983?  I though this was all settled. 
I have never heard one story of a Sikh pulling one out and doing anything with it.  If there were incidents like this, I think they would have come to light by now.  Just for fun, walk up to someone and ask to see it.  There is no way they will wheel it around lightly.
It is an exception.  Like every other privilege we have in this country, once someone screws up they may loose some of those freedoms of religion.  Seems to me, the seriousness of using a kirpan would make a young man wearing one turn to use just about anything else in order to avoid using it.  If someone really puts their mind to it, we all know that killing a guy does not depend too heavily on weapons at hand.
Besides, I would be more worried with the one toothed comb some of the guys keep on them to help tuck the hair back under the turban.  Looks like an ice pick (at least the one our Sikh buddy in school had did).
 
While many might agree with the SCC decision, specifically that it was unreasonable to deny the student the ability to wear the kirpan in the compromise manner (limited length, visibility, edge, and accessibility) that the student’s parents and the school had already agreed to.

Where the decision errors (opinion starts here) is that it doesn’t have a final check that would ensure it wasn’t giving someone (or some group) special privileges above other Canadians.

This can be shown be now asking:
Can other students now wear a knife-like object in the same manner (limited length, visibility, edge, and accessibility)?
They can’t. And so the decision is in error because it allows more freedoms to someone (or some group) solely based on their religion.

Other Canadians should not now be considered criminals (or at least in violation of the rules) for the same actions but while holding different religious views.

Another dangerous part of the SCC decision was where it touched upon the student’s true beliefs. In fairness it only mentions that this did not play a part in the decision because the school board never called it into question. However this puts the SCC in a position it shouldn’t let itself be put into – an arbiter of what is (or what is not) a true religion and who is (or who is not) a true believer.
 
DSB,  thank you for sharing your knowledge on this topic,  maybe could you post a picture or two of what a kirpan looks like?

as for the issue of bringing a knife to school,  IIRC minors are not allowed to possess knives..  what about 18yr olds that can purchase knives, and going out on a limb here; have the justification to bring them to school?
 
For everyone here who does not know what one looks like here you go:

KAK-KIR-85.jpg


_done330_0302kirpan.jpg


here is something about it:

The kirpan is the ceremonial dagger carried by Sikhs, as a reminder to fight for justice and against oppression. It is one of the five khalsas, or dress rituals. The word kirpan has the literal meaning of weapon of defence, as opposed to the talwar, the weapon of offence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirpan

Typically made from iron, kirpans range in size from large ceremonial swords to tiny knives worn around the neck. It is required that all Sikhs wear the kirpan at all times. To Sikhs, it is a highly important religious symbol; it is never used as a weapon. Nevertheless, the requirement that baptised Sikhs wear the kirpan has caused problems for believers in many areas, especially where the custom clashes with local ordinances against carrying weapons. In cases where safety regulations conflict with wearing the kirpan, such as boarding an airplane or entering a prison, Sikhs are usually advised to comply with authorities.

It was first established as a principle that one must fight for peace. A Sikh should never use the Kirpan in anger or for a malicious attack . However, a Sikh may use it in self-defence or to protect a person in need. Some Sikhs choose to learn the art of Gatka. This is a martial art devised by the Sikh Gurus' that uses circular movements to effectively swing a sword.


And for those people who think you can just make up your on religon and carry what you like, be it a machine gun or grenades... Geta  life, do a little research. I havent the time to do it right now because I need to get fire wood for the house today.

I think you will find that what your saying is just ignorant.


 
A knife has one purpose, and thats to cut something. No one should carry a knife to school, regardless of whatever the hell your religion is. The only people that should be carrying knifes are law enforcement and cab drivers.
 
danny1222 said:
as for the issue of bringing a knife to school,  IIRC minors are not allowed to possess knives..   what about 18yr olds that can purchase knives, and going out on a limb here; have the justification to bring them to school?

There is nothing unlawful about any knife, unless it is a prohibited weapon, such as a butterfly knife or a bladed kubotan etc.  Age is not an issue. 
Maybe stop thinking of the kirpans as being knives (which implies usage) and think of them as religious symbols.  Hell, if  people really want to push the pocket, give your kid a foot long cross on a chain made of stainless steel.  Then they could use it as a club, or as a chain flail. 
Love that religion!!
 
DSB said:
The kirpan is different than a lot of western religious symbols.  The Kirpan is part of the Sikh uniform.  You wear it when you become Amritdhari.  It would be akin to asking Catholics/Christians to refuse baptism to come to school.

Baptism doesn't imply wearing a weapon. It's just a ceremony, and a piece of paper. Unless you plan on doing the "death by a thousand cuts" thing, a piece of paper can't really hurt anyone. Neither does a ceremony.

Wearing a cross is very different than wearing a Kirpan, (and in no means do I want to take away form the symbolism and importance the cross has for Christians).

For someone whining about ignorance and claiming other people are wrong, you sure know how to make people feel like you consider their faith as being less "good". (I know I should say "worse" but it doesn't convey the same nuances.)

If a Kirpan is a 100% pure religious object, completely abstracting the fact that it's a weapon, then it's no different than a cross. Both are religious symbols some people who choose a certain faith are supposed to wear. There is no difference. Well, there is one difference: one is a weapon and one isn't, but other than that they're both basically the same.
 
Frederik G said:
Baptism doesn't imply wearing a weapon. It's just a ceremony, and a piece of paper. Unless you plan on doing the "death by a thousand cuts" thing, a piece of paper can't really hurt anyone. Neither does a ceremony.

For someone whining about ignorance and claiming other people are wrong, you sure know how to make people feel like you consider their faith as being less "good". (I know I should say "worse" but it doesn't convey the same nuances.)

If a Kirpan is a 100% pure religious object, completely abstracting the fact that it's a weapon, then it's no different than a cross. Both are religious symbols some people who choose a certain faith are supposed to wear. There is no difference. Well, there is one difference: one is a weapon and one isn't, but other than that they're both basically the same.


For Sikhs taking Amrit is a very serious occasion.  We don’t get a piece of paper, we are initiated into the Khalsa.  

I am not whining, (I am however perplexed by some people’s ignorance).  I have never stated that my faith is better than yours. My faith is just that, mine.  There are many paths: your path is yours to walk, and I have my path to walk.  I have not used the words worse, or good with respect to religion.  I have stated that some things are different.  Please don’t put words in my mouth.

The difference at least for me between the cross and the Kirpan is that the Kirpan is part of the Sikh ‘uniform’.  When you are confirmed a Sikh you must wear a Kirpan, (along with the four other Ks).  I don’t believe Christians are mandated to always wear a cross at all times as a sign of their faith, (I could be wrong about this).

DSB
 
DSB said:
I don’t believe Christians are mandated to always wear a cross at all times as a sign of their faith, (I could be wrong about this).

DSB

nope your right we don't have to wear a cross some people do but i know a lot of people that don't
 
Got here a bit late but I'll keep it short.

I personally disagree with the SCC.  I understand exactly what a Kirpan is and how serious it is to a Sikh, but I still see it as a weapon and that does not make me iggnorant.  If another student brought a similiar object to school, with no intention of using it what so ever they would still be suspended immediatly, no questions asked, for bringing a weapon to school.

If a student were to wear a gerber to school, they wouldn't be allowed to because of the knife inside it.  So how can we say one student can't wear a multi tool because its a weapon, but we can let another student wear a dagger because of their religion?  I think the real problem lies with actually definition of rules and the exceptions made for them.  If no knives are allowed in schools, then that should be the rule, no ifs and or buts about it.  If a Kirpan can be viewed as a knife or a dagger, and those aren't allowed in schools, then regardless of religion, they shouldn't be allowed either.

 
My home town has (had?) a large Sikh community, and I'd say 30% of my high school were Sikhs.

They all wore these things, and it was never a problem.

The place could get pretty rough sometimes, and not ONCE did one of these daggers ever get pulled.

DG
 
Northern Touch said:
Got here a bit late but I'll keep it short.

I personally disagree with the SCC.  I understand exactly what a Kirpan is and how serious it is to a Sikh, but I still see it as a weapon and that does not make me iggnorant.
LOL!!

If another student brought a similiar object to school,

Such as what?

If a student were to wear a gerber to school, they wouldn't be allowed to because of the knife inside it.  So how can we say one student can't wear a multi tool because its a weapon, but we can let another student wear a dagger because of their religion?  I think the real problem lies with actually definition of rules and the exceptions made for them.  If no knives are allowed in schools, then that should be the rule, no ifs and or buts about it.  If a Kirpan can be viewed as a knife or a dagger, and those aren't allowed in schools, then regardless of religion, they shouldn't be allowed either.

I see no rationale here besides sour grapes, petty jealousy and irrational fear.  Did you actually have a reason for this opinion or did you just like the way the keyboard feels under your fingers?

 
Michael others here might be afraid to ask but are you going to contribute anything but insults to this thread? ???The holier than thou attitude is tiring.

Personally, I think it is much ado about nothing. Ten + years without an incident in Ontario seems to be proof enough, but remember all it takes is just ONE incident for this to really blow up! :eek:
 
Time for a little introspection. Kirpans are allowed on BMQ's, where all knives are prohibited. Should the CF remove this exception?
 
Michael Dorosh said:
I see no rationale here besides sour grapes, petty jealousy and irrational fear.  Did you actually have a reason for this opinion or did you just like the way the keyboard feels under your fingers?

Michael, I am attracted to this Forum due to it's high level of reasonable, rationale debate. Posts such as your most recent one contribute very little. Perhaps if you have nothing thoughtful to post, consider not posting.

That said, it should be noted that in a recent (Centre Left) Globe and Mail poll, 75% of over 20,000 responders were not in favour of the recent Supreme Court decision. I think many rationale Canadians recognize the folly of a decision that allows minors to introduce edged weapons into an otherwise weapons free environment. Although I realize almost anything can be used as a weapon, a knife is considerably more dangerous than, say, a pencil or a chair.

The Young Offenders Act exists because Canadian society accepts that children are often far less reasonable and rationale that adults. Therefore, although crimes committed by youth are punished, they are generally held less accountable than if they were adults. However, someone who is stabbed or slashed to death by a Kirpan used by a student is not any less dead or injured.

A number of negative scenarios come to mind, however here is a simple one that many could understand. A baptized Sikh youth is tormented, for whatever reason (too smart, too fat, too ugly, too nerdy) by a group of similarly immature youth. The Sikh youth does not show restraint, and finds himself engaged in a fight. Somehow, the Kirpan is unsheathed and is used to cause grievous bodily harm or death to one of the combatants. Although this scenario has never or rarely ever happened in Canada, it would be cold comfort for the parents of the dead or injured child if it did.

Although many youth carry weapons outside of school, schools must be considered as sanctuaries of safety for all those who attend. The simple fact that Kirpans are not allowed on commercial aircraft is recognition by government and society as a whole that they do indeed pose a safety risk if they are in the wrong hands.

Every religion has whack jobs. Timothy McVeigh....The Taliban....the Orthodox, Muslim and Catholic Serbs, and of course, the Air India bombers. The simple fact that a Kirpan should never be used in anger or during a period of irrationality doesn't mean that it won't. I'm sure that even Baptized Sikhs suffer from schizophrenia.

Two questions that I don't have the answer to:

1.    What do Kirpan wearing Sikhs do when faced with commercial air travel? Do they abstain and take ground and sea travel only?

2.    Is there a size limit to Kirpans. Can they come in miniaturized form? Could the Swiss make a 1 cm long, fully functioning Kirpan that could be worn around the neck? Or, does the Kirpan have to be large enough to hurt someone if required? If the answer is the latter, I think it's all the more reason that a child should not be allowed to bring one into an institution of learning.
 
Thirstyson said:
Time for a little introspection. Kirpans are allowed on BMQ's, where all knives are prohibited. Should the CF remove this exception?

To quote myself (http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/40476/post-345675/topicseen.html#msg345675):
While many might agree with the SCC decision, specifically that it was unreasonable to deny the student the ability to wear the kirpan in the compromise manner (limited length, visibility, edge, and accessibility) that the student’s parents and the school had already agreed to.

Where the decision errors (opinion starts here) is that it doesn’t have a final check that would ensure it wasn’t giving someone (or some group) special privileges above other Canadians.

This can be shown be now asking:
  Can other students now wear a knife-like object in the same manner (limited length, visibility, edge, and accessibility)?
  They can’t. And so the decision is in error because it allows more freedoms to someone (or some group) solely based on their religion.

Other Canadians should not now be considered criminals (or at least in violation of the rules) for the same actions but while holding different religious views.


I can't see the CF running counter to the SCC on this. But the government should make the changes required so that a Just decision can be made. To reiterate though: I think the compromise was correct but the fact that the decision does not apply to others is reprehensible.
 
Does anyone have an example of where the kirpan has been used in ANY circumstance in Canada, justified or otherwise?

You can't say that we don't make allowances for religion.  Various religious affiliation will get you out of school or work.  Mennonites don't have to pay auto insurance in Ontario.  Jo Ho's can refuse blood transfusions for their kids despite their imminent death.  People who have alcohol stipulations against consuming alcohol can still take the sacramental wine. 
If there were a host of kirpan related accidents and deaths in Canada, I might be persuaded to say that they are an issue.  But kids have been wearing them in school for as long as Sikh's have been in Canada.  I am also under the impression that while in the general public, the kirpan is kept out of site and not very accessable.  If the schools have recently changes their rules, then I don't see it as being fair that someone whose faith is centuries old has to be affected by it.  Kind of like a grandfather clause. 

I have to deal with violence and weapons every day, and I have no issue with these ceremonial daggers.

[As an aside, can we get "kirpan" added to the spell checker?  Seems like a word that is going to be around a bit]
 
A number of negative scenarios come to mind, however here is a simple one that many could understand. A baptized Sikh youth is tormented, for whatever reason (too smart, too fat, too ugly, too nerdy) by a group of similarly immature youth. The Sikh youth does not show restraint, and finds himself engaged in a fight. Somehow, the Kirpan is unsheathed and is used to cause grievous bodily harm or death to one of the combatants. Although this scenario has never or rarely ever happened in Canada, it would be cold comfort for the parents of the dead or injured child if it did.

Straw man argument.

Like I said, I grew up in a northern BC town with a large Sikh population. A large proportion of the students in my high school were Sikhs. And this was a rough place; me and my friends got into our fair share of fights.

As a matter of fact, I believe the gentleman who was the first ever RCMP officer to wear the turban was posted to my hometown, probably because of the relaticvely large Sikh population.

Anyway, I once saw a friend of mine - a Sikh, and a weightlifter to boot - pick up a guy by the scruff of the neck and the ass of his pants and grate him against a chain-link fence like a piece of cheese. Another Sikh friend of mine kept a couple of golf clubs and a hockey stick in his car - and he didn't play sports, if you catch my drift.

But not once did I ever see or even hear about one of these daggers being drawn in a fight. We knew they all had them... but for whatever reason, no matter how badly the fight might have been going, they were never ever pulled.

Not being Sikh, I can't really say why - maybe it was religious taboo, or maybe the thing is more akin to a butter knife than an effective weapon. But I do know that I saw plenty of guys who carried them, under... extreme duress... and they never chose to pull it.

And that was, ye gods, 20 years ago. So well over 20 years of these things being in schools with no problems.

DG
 
RecceDG said:
Straw man argument.

Like I said, I grew up in a northern BC town with a large Sikh population. A large proportion of the students in my high school were Sikhs. And this was a rough place; me and my friends got into our fair share of fights.

As a matter of fact, I believe the gentleman who was the first ever RCMP officer to wear the turban was posted to my hometown, probably because of the relaticvely large Sikh population.

Anyway, I once saw a friend of mine - a Sikh, and a weightlifter to boot - pick up a guy by the scruff of the neck and the *** of his pants and grate him against a chain-link fence like a piece of cheese. Another Sikh friend of mine kept a couple of golf clubs and a hockey stick in his car - and he didn't play sports, if you catch my drift.

But not once did I ever see or even hear about one of these daggers being drawn in a fight. We knew they all had them... but for whatever reason, no matter how badly the fight might have been going, they were never ever pulled.

Not being Sikh, I can't really say why - maybe it was religious taboo, or maybe the thing is more akin to a butter knife than an effective weapon. But I do know that I saw plenty of guys who carried them, under... extreme duress... and they never chose to pull it.

And that was, ye gods, 20 years ago. So well over 20 years of these things being in schools with no problems.

DG

I've never really thought of i that way, If it's been going on for so long and nothing has happened i see nothing wrong with it. And there are a lot of easier ways of killing or injuring people ie) guns.
 
Back
Top