Ontario Election

[a_majoor]

Sorry K; I lived in Alberta when the monopoly ended, and not only did we see a drop in prices and an increase in selection, but the government was raking in about the same revenues as before. Sometimes you really can make it up in volume.

Incidentally, that is why tax cuts work. People who can keep more of what they earn are motivated to earn more. People with more money in their pockets can spend more, save more and invest more. Business can borrow that saved money (or get equity investments) to expand to meet the rising market. Each step increases economic activity, resulting in more revenues. Arthur Laffer knows this, John F Kennedy and Calvin Coolidge knew this (their tax cuts ushered in the Roaring 20's and the Go Go 60's) and Eastern European nations freed from the Soviet Union adopted flat tax systems to take advantage of this.

Sadly Dalton McGuinty and his cabinet do not know this (including Premier Designate Wynne), which explains a lot of what has happened in the last 9 years.

 

[foresterab]

Same here...privatized liquor stores came into effect in Alberta just when I turned 18 . 

From what I understand the province still controls the import paperwork and distribution rights but actual retail is privatized.  It's why in my town of 10,000 there are 5 liquor stores plus bars with offsales allowing for much greater access to your beverage of choice.  Unfortunately 4 of them are owned by the same corporation who bought out alot of small stores at the start of privatization so price wars are rare.  On the other hand a trip to the city makes for a cheap stop at the Superstore or Costco liquor store.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I don't care about money, taxes, etc. I want to be able to walk across the street and get a reasonable product for a reasonable price, without having to go 10 blocks. I want to get it on a holiday because my corner store is open. Or when the wife calls while shopping and asks if I want anything while she's at the supermarket, I can answer a bottle of Irish and a case of beer and she doesn't have to go anywhere else. let alone two more stores for beer and liquor. Unions and monopolies can piss up a rope. The government is there to do the taxpayers bidding.

Governments should not be in the retail business.

 

[Edward Campbell]

...

Governments should not be in the retail business.

Bingo!

That's it; that's all there is. Selling liquor is NOT why we have governments. Our, Canadian (federal, provincial and municipal) governments are ALL too big and too intrusive (and therefore a real, measurable threat to liberty and democracy) and too expensive. Government liquor stores are an offshoot of the temperance movement - the thing that led our crazy American cousins to prohibition - the aim was to make liquor inaccessible.

But it is fundamentally wrong for governments to be in the liquor business; it doesn't matter if they make or lose money on it, it is just plain, 100% wrong.

 

[kevincanada]

Sorry K; I lived in Alberta when the monopoly ended, and not only did we see a drop in prices and an increase in selection, but the government was raking in about the same revenues as before. Sometimes you really can make it up in volume.

Sadly Dalton McGuinty and his cabinet do not know this (including Premier Designate Wynne), which explains a lot of what has happened in the last 9 years.

It was never pitched this way.  Tim Hudak actually said we will save money $160 million a year by not having to build new LCBO's.  My thought was really? so the new owner won't be spending $160 million building new LCBO's.

Tim Hudak says some weird things like the $160 million statement above.  I remember the last election campaign him talking about bringing in 30,000 skilled workers through immigration.  The effects of the recession was still being felt at that time.

I as a contractor have skepticism about the skilled worker shortage.  Yes I agree on the government books of licensed or certified skilled workers there is s a short fall.  But due to loose rules a lot of skill workers don't have or need a license.  Factoring in everyone who does skilled work with out certification.  It is plausible Albeit research is needed that there is no real skilled worker shortage.  Just the numbers look bad.

Due to red tape. Companies don't want to train, it cost a lot of money to hire apprentice's and they are often not required (housing for instance pretty sure only licensed electricians and gas fitters are required, bulk of work is commenced by unskilled workers).  It would explain why the numbers look bad.  This information,  just like the LCBO, HST, hydro costs are not being fully disclosed. 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

It was never pitched this way.  Tim Hudak actually said we will save money $160 million a year by not having to build new LCBO's.  My thought was really? so the new owner won't be spending $160 million building new LCBO's.

Tim Hudak says some weird things like the $160 million statement above.  I remember the last election campaign him talking about bringing in 30,000 skilled workers through immigration.  The effects of the recession was still being felt at that time.

I as a contractor have skepticism about the skilled worker shortage.  Yes I agree on the government books of licensed or certified skilled workers there is s a short fall.  But due to loose rules a lot of skill workers don't have or need a license.  Factoring in everyone who does skilled work with out certification.  It is plausible Albeit research is needed that there is no real skilled worker shortage.  Just the numbers look bad.

Due to red tape. Companies don't want to train, it cost a lot of money to hire apprentice's and they are often not required (housing for instance pretty sure only licensed electricians and gas fitters are required, bulk of work is commenced by unskilled workers).  It would explain why the numbers look bad.  This information,  just like the LCBO, HST, hydro costs are not being fully disclosed.

It's $160 mil that won't be coming out of taxpayers pockets. Who cares what it cost the private investor. The private investor knows value for their dollar and are not spendthrift like government. They will provide better, cheaper, meaner and leaner service to maximize profits, while providing wider and better service to the consumer.

As to skilled trades, many are covered under O Reg 572\99. The rules aren't loose at all. If they are caught working without their license they will be fined on the spot and, you, the constructor or contractor, will be fined also. Likely per worker caught, along with a stop work order until you rectify the problem(s).

The problem with lack of skilled workers and apprentices lays with the system the Unions have set up in Ontario for introducing and advancing people in the trades. There is no government conspiracy. It's all on the unions. They starve the system artificially to demand wages that would make a plastic surgeon blush with shame.

Hudak wants to kill that system so more apprentices can enter the fields and become productive skilled tradespersons faster.

BTW, Schedule 1 of this OReg specifies electricians, plumbers, gasfitters, refrige techs, sheet metal and steam fitters. Those are all trades used in construction. Depending on the construction, you can also add hoisting engineer. That's a far cry from just electricians and gas fitters.

As a contractor you should be aware of that.

 

[kevincanada]

no need for hurtling insults. the listing was off the top of my head.  Here's the real list
http://www.tcu.gov.on.ca/eng/employmentontario/training/certification.html

Most skilled trades are voluntary for certification.  The bulk of the construction of a subdivision and commercial projects does not require licensed personal.  No the costs of apprenticeships are not because of unions the government sets out those costs not the union or corporation.

A $160 million in the form of the government spending it (out of alcohol sales profit) or a $160 million out of private corporation spending it (out of alcohol sales profit) is exactly the same the cost difference is null.

You cannot speed up a skilled trades person qualification.  There is a education component and mandatory hours of service that *must* be proven or you cannot write the exam.  A carpenter requires 7200 man hours and education component and proof of this in order to write the test and get a Certificate.

It is expensive for company because the company gets stuck with the bill for the educational aspect.  Plus mandatory wages.  Why hire a apprentice when you can hire someone already experienced and pay him less lol.  It is the lack of financial assurance to companies that create the training issues brought upon from the licensing program.  There is no finical incentive for companies to train people professionally.  That is only the main portions of the red tape around it.  There is more.

Also you quoted ONTARIO REGULATION 572/99
TRAINING REQUIREMENTS FOR CERTAIN SKILL SETS AND TRADES

This is licensing only.  Electrician is pretty obvious on the surface.  They need to be licensed.  That's fine.  What companies do is get one electrician and have people work under his ticket.  Everything passes the checks fine.  Or in the case of property owners, they just do the work themselves.

Plumbers are bad for this.  they'll get a few guys working,  Write them up as general laborer and boom go to work.

There is lots of skilled people out there working like this.  But they can't get licensed because the system doesn't favour, and again corporate cash incentives are non existent.  there is some rebates yes.  But it doesn't cover the costs or doing business in the way I described.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

It was never pitched this way.  Tim Hudak actually said we will save money $160 million a year by not having to build new LCBO's.  My thought was really? so the new owner won't be spending $160 million building new LCBO's.

Tim Hudak says some weird things like the $160 million statement above.  I remember the last election campaign him talking about bringing in 30,000 skilled workers through immigration.  The effects of the recession was still being felt at that time.

I as a contractor have skepticism about the skilled worker shortage.  Yes I agree on the government books of licensed or certified skilled workers there is s a short fall.  But due to loose rules a lot of skill workers don't have or need a license.  Factoring in everyone who does skilled work with out certification.  It is plausible Albeit research is needed that there is no real skilled worker shortage.  Just the numbers look bad.

Due to red tape. Companies don't want to train, it cost a lot of money to hire apprentice's and they are often not required (housing for instance pretty sure only licensed electricians and gas fitters are required, bulk of work is commenced by unskilled workers).  It would explain why the numbers look bad.  This information,  just like the LCBO, HST, hydro costs are not being fully disclosed.

Kevin,

With respect- that is not how it works in Alberta.  The govt sells the alcohol from it's warehouse to the retailer, collecting all relevant taxes.  After that, the retailer can go dump it in the ditch for all the govt cares- they have made their money.  The govt no longer has to deal with 1000s of unionized retail workers that went on strike like clockwork every summer.  Consumers no longer have put up with one liquor store in a town that has limited  choice and limited hours.  Even small towns usually have multiple liquor stores, and selection improved dramatically. The govt no longer has to build and maintain hundreds of retail buildings.

You don't have to believe any of us, but the evidence is there.  Go to Alberta and see for yourself.

 

[Infanteer]

Having worked in a private liquor store in BC, this one has already been a favourite of mine.

http://taxpayer.com/british-columbia/bc-liquor-store-clerk-wage-comparison

Entry level cashier positon selling booze.  Private stores pays $10 an hour while the government employess get $28.  WTF?

 

[a_majoor]

In some othre thread (my Google fu is weak tonight) there is an example of a government run Tim Hortons that had to close because it was losing money. Tim Hortons practically mints the stuff, so how could the government owed store (in a hospital, I recall) have lost money? They too paid @ $28/hr for their unionized coffee servers. While the coffee servers were probably happy withh their wages, the store's owner simply could not continue to run at a loss (I also believe the initial idea was to open a Tim's and use the profits to help offset some of the costs of running the hospital).

The coffee servers were less thrilled when they were out of a job....

 

[PuckChaser]

(my Google fu is weak tonight)

I got your back: http://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/taxpayers-top-up-money-losing-tim-hortons-at-halifax-hospital-1.1109211

 

[Fishbone Jones]

In some othre thread (my Google fu is weak tonight) there is an example of a government run Tim Hortons that had to close because it was losing money. Tim Hortons practically mints the stuff, so how could the government owed store (in a hospital, I recall) have lost money? They too paid @ $28/hr for their unionized coffee servers. While the coffee servers were probably happy withh their wages, the store's owner simply could not continue to run at a loss (I also believe the initial idea was to open a Tim's and use the profits to help offset some of the costs of running the hospital).

The coffee servers were less thrilled when they were out of a job....

Same thing happened in a Windsor hospital where the workers were CAW members.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I got your back: http://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/taxpayers-top-up-money-losing-tim-hortons-at-halifax-hospital-1.1109211

Four Timmies in one hopital?...changing the menu?,........gee, lets blame the employee's for that.

 

[PuckChaser]

Four Timmies in one hopital?...changing the menu?,........gee, lets blame the employee's for that.

It says 4 in the area, probably one in each hospital?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

"All four outlets are located at the Queen Elizabeth II Health Sciences Centre and money that is supposed to pay for health care is instead being used to keep them afloat."

 

[Scott]

Four Timmies in one hopital?...changing the menu?,........gee, lets blame the employee's for that.

Who blamed the employees?

Food service should be privatized, full stop. No one serving coffee should be making that kind of money, full stop. That's not an employee thing at all. No one said it is, either.

 

[PuckChaser]

"All four outlets are located at the Queen Elizabeth II Health Sciences Centre and money that is supposed to pay for health care is instead being used to keep them afloat."

I should read further down, I just caught the area line in the first paragraph. Thanks.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

It's the union overture,..........and why shouldn't they make that much if the business makes that much?
Now if the business isn't doing well, then I agree........
Everytime we tried to privatice the food services in the system I work things went very badly,........ya' pay peanuts, ya' get monkeys.
Instead hire decent managers to run things correctly and reap all the benefits for the hospital........not friggin' rocket science.

But then look at the NDHQ and one can see why most in the military wouldn't know about that.

 

[Scott]

Sorry, Bruce, the only overture I see is calling into question the sanity of paying someone 28 bucks an hour to pour coffee when teenagers get a third of that to do it a block away. That's not anti union, that's anti stupid.

I can see an argument to keep some of the food services staff as status quo, but you lose me completely at a 28 buck an hour Timmies girl. We aren't talking rocket science there, either.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

The article said $20,....RG's $28 was hearsay for now.

Yup,........bad management thinking a new business could pay that to start out.