An Ongoing Military Identity Crisis

[Haggis]

Mr Black has, in the past, had the ear of various elected officials in the capacity of informal advisor, and so his opinion matters, even if it is not wholly thought through.

Don't discount his military experience gained while Honourary Colonel of the GGFG.

 

[nairna]

What does everyone think of this line? 

"The most effective economic stimulus is advanced military-based research, and this should be pursued, especially in aerospace and shipbuilding."

 

[jollyjacktar]

I for one applaud CB for suggesting and championing a larger military.  It is refreshing to see someone from the MSM do so. 

As for the unemployed as a possible source of recruits, it would not be totally without merit.  At one time some young men were given the option of jail or the military.  Granted some of them were indeed rotten to the core and continued to be so amongst us.  Others, however, turned their lives around, stuck it out and were very successful Soldiers.  I am sure there are those amongst us who have encountered some of these people, I know I have.  Many young people today would benefit from having a positive start in adulthood with learing self sufficiency, discipline and some trades skills among other things that come from some time in the Forces.  Not to mention the obvious benefits from having a regular pay coming in, they might even get to like the idea and keep amongst the ranks of the employed if not the CF.

 

[Sapplicant]

It all sounded good until he said that the expanded forces should draw from the ranks of the unemployed.  While there are willing workers in the unemployment line, I dont believe that the vast majority of them are suitable for military service.

Please elaborate. Are you referring to the welfare bum types who haven't worked in years, or the underemployed, such as myself? Some people who draw poggie only do so in the winter, when there's just not enough work for everyone who lives here.

Once springtime rolls around, and the snowbanks start growing Timmies cups and cigarette butts, people like myself and the vast majority of people around here I know, are chomping at the bit to get back outside and work up a storm. I hope that these are not the people you are referring to, because I'd like to think that most of my fellow outdoorsmen/farmhands would do great in the Forces, and are more than suitable for service.

 

[EMEGUY421]

Please elaborate. Are you referring to the welfare bum types who haven't worked in years, or the underemployed, such as myself? Some people who draw poggie only do so in the winter, when there's just not enough work for everyone who lives here.

Once springtime rolls around, and the snowbanks start growing Timmies cups and cigarette butts, people like myself and the vast majority of people around here I know, are chomping at the bit to get back outside and work up a storm. I hope that these are not the people you are referring to, because I'd like to think that most of my fellow outdoorsmen/farmhands would do great in the Forces, and are more than suitable for service.

I appreciate your elaboration.  If you are saying that you would like to end your seasonal work 'cycle',  then join the CF.  We are always recruiting.  The 'bums' you refer to are more than happy dragging themselves through a life that is at best a struggle to survive, and who are more often than not rebellious towards the very people who make attempts to correct the situation.  They would not appreciate the world offered and most would not pass the enrollment criteria just to spite the process.

I may be wrong and will gladly admit so, but this is what I have observed in my years.

 

[Michael OLeary]

We are always recruiting. 

Perhaps you should read this thread to get a better understanding of the current recruiting situation:

Trades OPEN / Closed ?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Perhaps you should read this thread to get a better understanding of the current recruiting situation:

Trades OPEN / Closed ?

Seems to be a recurring theme. Weighing in with an opinion without the pertinent background reading.

 

[PanaEng]

To state the blindingly obvious:  Way to offend the "common soldiers" who, indeed, have LOADS of education - in some cases, more than the officer types.

And from my limited experience in government (or life, for that matter), more education =/= (necessarily) more common sense.

Absolutely!
Just looking at the guys in my troop:

• over 75% are going to University or college
• a few of them are doing their masters and I think one just started phd
• a couple of Cpl's have their PEng

of those not going to school, only one needs the reserves to supplement his income - the rest are either professionals or otherwise employed by gov (  ;D ) and are still with our unit for the fun of it 
Not sure if this is representative of the reserve units in general, but I'm pretty happy with the level and breadth of knowledge in our unit.

as for the paper, yes, good to see, but his focus should have  been to explain why we need a bigger military instead of how to get bigger. (as previously mentioned)

cheers

 

[FutureQYR]

I don't like the idea of working with people who are purely in a career for the money, which is what 80% of the people you find in the unemployment line would be joining for. In my experience (PRes and civvie side) they lack initiative, are generaly the last people to start a job, and the first people to be out the door at the end of the day. 
I think I would much rather see the money the DND would spend to hire a whole bunch of cannon fodder go towards its regular recruitment numberd and further training the troops it already has. Oh, and maybe speed up my CT... :nod:

 

[aesop081]

In my experience (PRes and civvie side) they lack initiative, are generaly the last people to start a job, and the first people to be out the door at the end of the day. 

And in my experience they are the people least afraid to get dirty and get the job done because they know what a dollar is worth and dont think shitty jobs are "beneath them" because thats "not what they joined for". They are not the ones during basic training saying " i joined to serve my country not clean toilets"............people join for lots of reasons and money is one of them. That does not make them worse soldiers.

 

[Shamrock]

I don't like the idea of working with people who are purely in a career for the money, which is what 80% of the people you find in the unemployment line would be joining for. In my experience (PRes and civvie side) they lack initiative, are generaly the last people to start a job, and the first people to be out the door at the end of the day. 
I think I would much rather see the money the DND would spend to hire a whole bunch of cannon fodder go towards its regular recruitment numberd and further training the troops it already has. Oh, and maybe speed up my CT... :nod:

In my experience, made up statistics are a bullshit means of thinly veiling personal prejudice.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I think I would much rather see the money the DND would spend to hire a whole bunch of cannon fodder go towards its regular recruitment numberd and further training the troops it already has. Oh, and maybe speed up my CT... :nod:

Apart from making little sense here, way to take a good dig at people not even in the CF yet.  How do you like under-informed generalities about people from Toronto?  Same, same....

 

[FutureQYR]

In my experience, made up statistics are a bullshit means of thinly veiling personal prejudice.

Hard to hold prejudice against myself, that is being that I am a night Janitor working for $10.50 an hour at 60 hours a week.

But, maybe I should have phrased it better.  By actively recruiting from employment lines (a place I have found myself more than once) you are going to find yourself hiring alot of people who at the moment see an opportunity to make money, get out of a rough patch, and a year down the road decide its not for them/theres more opportunity civve side. Not everyone, but alot.

Does it not make more sense that in seeking to maintain a professional army one should hire people who seek to be professional, not just a steady paycheck?

 

[aesop081]

Does it not make more sense that in seeking to maintain a professional army one should hire people who seek to be professional, not just a steady paycheck?

Anyone who does their job 100% will do. I dont give a crap why they are here. I have seen my share of slackers that came in for various reasons.

 

[FutureQYR]

Apart from making little sense here, way to take a good dig at people not even in the CF yet.  How do you like under-informed generalities about people from Toronto?  Same, same....

Not being from Toronto, I could care less. 

"A dig at people not even in the CF yet". Its not as if Im standing at the door of CFRC Toronto pointing out people I feel are less 'well off' and telling staff to turn them away.

I think I was misunderstood. Im NOT saying that people who use the unemployment line are any more or less lazy than a person in a financially stable situation, Im saying people who start a career based on salary are going to be significantly less passionate about that job.

What im saying doesnt even only apply to the Forces. The same could be said about Police. If you were a Cop, would you want to be working with another Officer who was in it for the check rather than the feeling he/she recieved from a good day of serving his/her community?

 

[FutureQYR]

Anyone who does their job 100% will do. I dont give a crap why they are here. I have seen my share of slackers that came in for various reasons.

Well, I guess thats why were discussing the topic. Differing opinions...

 

[Edward Campbell]

I'm with CDN Aviator; in a long (35+ years) career I met a lot of people who joined for a lot f reasons. What mattered, to me, was why some stayed and some didn't. Some of the best soldiers I ever knew joined for reasons quite unrelated to patriotism or military professionalism and all that; some of the people I was most happy to see out the door joined because they wanted to be professional soldiers or serve their country or some such thing.

Me? I joined as an act of adolescent rebellion. I'm not sure who was more shocked, me or the army, when I turned out to be an OK soldier. The army, for me, was "fun" and, when offered the chance, I re-engaged and then agreed to give officer training a try; the army remained, mostly, "fun" for all 35+ years. I'm glad I joined and I'm glad I stayed in; I'm glad the army wasn't worried about my motives for joining.

 

[aesop081]

Im saying people who start a career based on salary are going to be significantly less passionate about that job.

People who join for more abstract resons than money are often disapointed by their careers ( "this isnt what i joined for...blah blah blah") and leave the forces. People who join for money stick around as long as the pay keeps comming..........

We can play this game all night if you want but in the end, there are pros and cons for both and "it takes all kinds".......

 

[FutureQYR]

I'm with CDN Aviator; in a long (35+ years) career I met a lot of people who joined for a lot f reasons. What mattered, to me, was why some stayed and some didn't. Some of the best soldiers I ever knew joined for reasons quite unrelated to patriotism or military professionalism and all that; some of the people I was most happy to see out the door joined because they wanted to be professional soldiers or serve their country or some such thing.

Me? I joined as an act of adolescent rebellion. I'm not sure who was more shocked, me or the army, when I turned out to be an OK soldier. The army, for me, was "fun" and, when offered the chance, I re-engaged and then agreed to give officer training a try; the army remained, mostly, "fun" for all 35+ years. I'm glad I joined and I'm glad I stayed in; I'm glad the army wasn't worried about my motives for joining.

People who join for more abstract resons than money are often disapointed by their careers ( "this isnt what i joined for...blah blah blah") and leave the forces. People who join for money stick around as long as the pay keeps comming..........

We can play this game all night if you want but in the end, there are pros and cons for both and "it takes all kinds".......

I suppose your both right.  :

Good to see people interested in discusion rather than jumping down peoples throat when they state their opinion.

 

[aesop081]

Good to see people interested in discusion rather than jumping down peoples throat when they state their opinion.

Disagreeing with you is not "jumping down people's throat". Maybe you should try to defend your position by doing more than repeating the same thing in every post.

In my experience ( 18+ years reg force in 2 different trades, resume available on request....), your opinion is off-base. Show me why you are right !