Trust in our Institutions

[The Bread Guy]

Apparently the leader of the Bloc is going to get cleared to see the list.

My guess is after he will announce that his party is free of any MPs who may be tainted.

If that's the case, that'll be intriguing.

NDP boss said last Wednesday he was asking to be "briefed" briefed, but I haven't seen anything indicating he's been briefed. Interesting to see if/how things change in Team Orange's position after he gets more info.

Tory boss still good not being briefed, but we'll see if that continues, even if it does give him more freedom to attack the government he wants to replace.

 

[RangerRay]

If that's the case, that'll be intriguing.

NDP boss said last Wednesday he was asking to be "briefed" briefed, but I haven't seen anything indicating he's been briefed. Interesting to see if/how things change in Team Orange's position after he gets more info.

Tory boss still good not being briefed, but we'll see if that continues, even if it does give him more freedom to attack the government he wants to replace.

If PP doesn’t get cleared, then he can’t get briefed, then he can’t forget to sign the nomination papers of implicated Tory MP’s. Seems strangely convenient to me.

 

[RangerRay]

I’d say it’s likely, given who the membership of this site generally is, that there’s more need for many members to be cautious in their online commenting regarding domestic national security issues.

I think Brad was comparing the media’s and others reaction to the colludy shit going on between the Trump campaign and the Russians, and their reaction to two year’s of foreign interference, influence and intimidation revelations in Canada. They rightly had their hair on fire over the stuff going on in the US. Other than the G&M and a couple other journos, the Canadian media and others have been trying to ignore this story, which is worse IMHO.

 

[Winds]

If PP doesn’t get cleared, then he can’t get briefed, then he can’t forget to sign the nomination papers of implicated Tory MP’s. Seems strangely convenient to me.

If he is briefed, then he can take no action based off any any of the information learned. That's why he's instead asking for the information to be declassified and made public... what benefit is it for him to know the information if he cannot act on it? As per usual, Tory members of the National Security and Intelligence Committee will be briefed.

I'm not confident in the RCMP's ability to prosecute based off information that remains classified... remember the recent story of the CSIS agent who was investigated for reporting rape by a superior? The current security agency oversight framework is wanting.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7186494

 

[RangerRay]

If he is briefed, then he can take no action based off any any of the information learned. That's why he's instead asking for the information to be declassified and made public... what benefit is it for him to know the information if he cannot act on it? As per usual, Tory members of the National Security and Intelligence Committee will be briefed.

I'm not confident in the RCMP's ability to prosecute based off information that remains classified... remember the recent story of the CSIS agent who was investigated for reporting rape by a superior? The current security agency oversight framework is wanting.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7186494

The way I see it, he can whine that the Liberals won’t give him the club to beat them with, or he can use the broom offered him to sweep the rats out of his own house. I think the second option is best for the country. And if he moves first, he can embarrass the other parties.

 

[The Bread Guy]

If PP doesn’t get cleared, then he can’t get briefed, then he can’t forget to sign the nomination papers of implicated Tory MP’s. Seems strangely convenient to me.

If he is briefed, then he can take no action based off any any of the information learned. That's why he's instead asking for the information to be declassified and made public... what benefit is it for him to know the information if he cannot act on it? ..,

And therein lies the “glass half empty” vs “glass half full” reads of the same facts

 

[The Bread Guy]

The way I see it, he can whine that the Liberals won’t give him the club to beat them with, or he can use the broom offered him to sweep the rats out of his own house. I think the second option is best for the country. And if he moves first, he can embarrass the other parties.

Another thing I’m hearing from both Orange & Blue folks fine tunes things a bit. Both talk about seeing something done about folks who knowingly/deliberately colluded.

What do we do if someone honestly didn’t know who was behind the shenanigans? Should their names be published and let not knowing go to sanctions?

Also, and I stand to be corrected but to me, “intelligence indicates” could be based on info ranging from iron-clad, multi-source info that’s ready to take to the courts all the way to the int equivalent of “a couple of guys say x”. Where do we adjust the filter at which point the public should know? The parties (who have different rules for dealing with shenanigans)?

And if party leader x knows y is on the list, but can’t tell caucus or the party executive why they should be turfed, what happens next?

The more I learn about this, the more shades of grey I’m seeing

 

[Remius]

Another thing I’m hearing from both Orange & Blue folks fine tunes things a bit. Both talk about seeing something done about folks who knowingly/deliberately colluded.

What do we do if someone honestly didn’t know who was behind the shenanigans? Should their names be published and let not knowing go to sanctions?

Also, and I stand to be corrected but to me, “intelligence indicates” could be based on info ranging from iron-clad, multi-source info that’s ready to take to the courts all the way to the int equivalent of “a couple of guys say x”. Where do we adjust the filter at which point the public should know? The parties (who have different rules for dealing with shenanigans)?

And if party leader x knows y is on the list, but can’t tell caucus or the party executive why they should be turfed, what happens next?

The more I learn about this, the more shades of grey I’m seeing

It’s a complicated mess to be sure.

 

[dapaterson]

 

[Winds]

The way I see it, he can whine that the Liberals won’t give him the club to beat them with, or he can use the broom offered him to sweep the rats out of his own house. I think the second option is best for the country. And if he moves first, he can embarrass the other parties.

There is no broom, he's being offered information that would be a criminal offense if he disclosed any of it. This includes any inferences made.

The leader of the CPC cannot even remove members from his party without a majority vote from his caucus (the LPC has different rules). How is he supposed to get such vote if he can't divulge any information? And how are Canadians (and our allies) supposed to have trust in our democratic institution if we are completely unable to hold our elected members accountable. Serving as an MP is a privilege, not a right, and the threshold for kicking one out of parliament is loss of confidence, not criminal charges.

How're these MPs supposed to be held accountable if their names are not declassified and released? The NSICOP report itself stated that many of the actions may meet threshold of criminal activity (treason) but that charges ares unlikely "owing to Canada's failure to address the long-standing issue of protecting classified information and methods in judicial processes."

As well, I've never heard of anyone successfully getting rid of rats with a broom... They're pretty good at sweeping dirt under the rug though.

 

[Remius]

The best case for the CPC is to have PP get cleared. This is no longer just a political issue anymore. He’s the Pm in waiting and he should have as much info as possible.

He can easily have one of his critics doing the critic political stuff.

 

[The Bread Guy]

The best case for the CPC is to have PP get cleared. This is no longer just a political issue anymore. He’s the Pm in waiting and he should have as much info as possible.

He can easily have one of his critics doing the critic political stuff.

Agreed. I’ve heard mixed opinions re: can’t impose internal political sanctions based on int, so it’ll be interesting what happens with Team Orange once the coach gets briefed up.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Let's see how this goes this week ....

Opposition parties urge collusion revelations be turned over to foreign interference inquiry

On Monday, the House of Commons will debate the request made by the Bloc Québécois. MPs will vote on it on Tuesday and New Democrats have already said they will support the proposal

www.theglobeandmail.com

View attachment 85871
Article also archived here if previous link doesn't work for you ...

The latest via CBC.ca

... and Reuters

... with a bit from The Canadian Press via CTV

Liberals say foreign meddling inquiry should look into MP allegations

Democratic Institutions Minister Dominic LeBlanc says the Liberals will support a Bloc Quebecois motion urging the foreign interference inquiry to look into allegations that some MPs 'wittingly' participated in meddling.

www.ctvnews.ca

Let's see what happens next

 

[Winds]

Agreed. I’ve heard mixed opinions re: can’t impose internal political sanctions based on int, so it’ll be interesting what happens with Team Orange once the coach gets briefed up.

The issue isn't that it is Int but that the information is classified. Disclosing classified information is itself illegal.

If the names were declassified, as is being called for by opposition parties, then there would be no issue with releasing the names. Declassifying the names of the implicated MPs, and perhaps what they are accused of, wouldn't itself reasonably pose a risk to the intelligence sources.

 

[Castus]

The issue isn't that it is Int but that the information is classified. Disclosing classified information is itself illegal.

If the names were declassified, as is being called for by opposition parties, then there would be no issue with releasing the names. Declassifying the names of the implicated MPs, and perhaps what they are accused of, wouldn't itself reasonably pose a risk to the intelligence sources.

The government of the day will always use the reason that declassifying the names of sitting members of Parliament (particularly their members, though this will be unspoken) would be injurious to the national interest, whether or not it reveals anything about the sources who gathered the intelligence in the first place. The fact that not releasing these names is likely more injurious to the national interest is typically not addressed. I don't expect that any party in government would treat this differently.

This is, at root, a fundamental issue with our way of conducting politics in Canada.

 

[Winds]

The government of the day will always use the reason that declassifying the names of sitting members of Parliament (particularly their members, though this will be unspoken) would be injurious to the national interest, whether or not it reveals anything about the sources who gathered the intelligence in the first place. The fact that not releasing these names is likely more injurious to the national interest is typically not addressed. I don't expect that any party in government would treat this differently.

This is, at root, a fundamental issue with our way of conducting politics in Canada.

I haven't yet heard any MP claim that declassifying the names would be injurious to the national interest... I think that would be met with significant criticism, particularly as the NSICOP report implicates the members as working with hostile foreign governments against Canada's national interest.

 

[Kirkhill]

What isn’t reflected in the Commission’s hearings and documents, is what happened in Vancouver on September 10, the day after a Toronto-area newspaper reported Chiu “introduced his foreign influence registry bill to suppress the Chinese Canadian community.”

A Rise Media segment called “Federal Election Focus” was posted to Youtube that day.

In Mandarin, a purported anti-racism activist named Ivan Pak — who was a 2019 federal candidate in Richmond for Canada’s upstart right-wing People’s Party — questioned Parm Bains and Liberal candidate Brea Huang Sami about Kenny Chiu’s bill.

Translating Ivan Pak’s question to Parm Bains, Brea Huang Sami asked if Bains thought Kenny Chiu’s bill “will violate any human rights of certain part of Canadian?”

Along with Rise Media branding the video displays the logo of Chinese Canadians Goto Vote Association, the United Front-connected group started by Ivan Pak and Rise Media journalist Ally Wang shortly after Justin Trudeau called the 2021 election.

Beijing supported Liberal candidate that echoed disinformation against Conservatives: Document Analysis

Key NSICOP allegation of foreign state supporting a witting politician apparently stems from defeat of MP Kenny Chiu and September 2021 CSIS brief

www.thebureau.news

Playing both sides against the middle. The aim is disruption. Pure and simple. Friends in high places is a fringe benefit.

People don't need to play for the other side to be used by the other side.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

So how does a leader deal with those in his party that are named, when he finds out from the briefing who they are?

Obviously, any member named as willingly working for a foreign power, should be kicked out.

How do you do kick them out without publicly assigning blame?

On the other hand, how do you keep them onboard, without allowing them to take part in the parliamentary process?

A flurry of resignations would be just as damning to the party.

Would a Committee member, privy to the info, be able to look at the leader and tell him "No worries boss, we don't have anyone on the list."

 

[OldSolduer]

So how does a leader deal with those in his party that are named, when he finds out from the briefing who they are?



How do you do kick them out without publicly assigning blame?

" Mr/Ms (pick a name) have decided to resign their seat due to health concerns"

I don't think there are that many actively assisting whatever foreign nations that are named.

 

[QV]

Fun National Post party game: Who’s the Parliamentary traitor?

Pretend you’re a Canadian MP forced to work alongside secret foreign agents

nationalpost.com

This should be a knee clapper