Pay Increments for academic qualifications etc

[infant]

I'm looking for "orders or instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff, for academic or other special qualifications considered by the Chief of the Defence Staff to be of military value." as referenced in CBI 204.511(2).c. (below).  It has been mentioned on this board that (for example) a masters degree should bump you up by one pay increment level but that hasn't happened for me, and I would like some written confirmation that it should have been. 

I thought the PLAR database might contain that kind of thing, but it seems to be focussed on exemptions for specific military training.


Ref. 204.511(2) (Qualifying service) Subject to conditions prescribed in orders or instructions issued by the Chief of Defence Staff, qualifying service for pay increments includes

a.subject to paragraph (3), all previous service for an officer or non-commissioned member at the member’s present rank, equivalent rank or any higher rank, including paid acting rank in
a.the Regular Force and all other permanent armed forces of Her Majesty,
b.any component of the Canadian Forces and of all other armed forces of Her Majesty, when on active service, or
c.the Primary Reserve, Cadet Instructors Cadre and the Canadian Rangers of the Reserve Force; and
b.for an officer or non-commissioned member on enrolment in the Canadian Forces, a period as established in orders or instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff, for academic or other special qualifications considered by the Chief of the Defence Staff to be of military value.

 

[PMedMoe]

Why would a masters degree be deemed "of military value"?  ???

 

[Occam]

Why would a masters degree be deemed "of military value"?  ???

Think DEO.  Someone coming in with their Masters vice Bachelors won't be asking the CF for post-grad training (well, there's always doctorate but at least the likelihood would be less).  Having to spend less on their education means you can dangle an incentive carrot.

 

[jeffb]

A masters is clearly of military value for officers. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be worth anything at merit boards, which it is (at least in my trade and I suspect most others).

Does having an advanced degree make you  better at your day to day job? I'm not sure but that's probably another topic for discussion.

 

[ballz]

A masters is clearly of military value for officers. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be worth anything at merit boards, which it is (at least in my trade and I suspect most others).

Does having an advanced degree make you  better at your day to day job? I'm not sure but that's probably another topic for discussion.

I would think whether it makes you better at your job is very much related to whether it has military value? I've been cussing down credential-ism for a while, so I'd be more interested in hearing "why" the merit boards consider them of value.

Especially now that undergraduate degrees are getting as watered down as is possible, Master's degrees are next to head down that route, and are definitely already headed down that road.

 

[PMedMoe]

I can see it as getting someone in at a higher pay level than normal, but not bumping a pay increment if the person gets it after they join.  There are several people in the CF who have done their degrees after they joined and have not moved up in pay increments.  Some, if lucky and have submitted an ILP, do get it paid for.  And most do it on their own time, not the CF's.

 

[jeffb]

I would think whether it makes you better at your job is very much related to whether it has military value? I've been cussing down credential-ism for a while, so I'd be more interested in hearing "why" the merit boards consider them of value.

Especially now that undergraduate degrees are getting as watered down as is possible, Master's degrees are next to head down that route, and are definitely already headed down that road.

The answer to this is above my pay grade but I suspect it has something to do with what job requirements are at similar public service/ private sector jobs. Most executive level positions require a MBA or some other post-graduate program.

 

[infant]

I thought I remembered reading on this board a directive of some sort that said, "a degree is automatically deemed to have military value".  It wasn't recent, and my search didn't turn it up. I believe it was referring to a bachelor degree.  But I think that for example a (at least one) degree is a requirement to be an officer, doesn't matter what field it is is, so that must make it clearly of military value?  Completion of a degree requires developing some minimum level of self-discipline, academic ability, study skills, performance under pressure (exams) etc, which I believe is of value in the military..

A quote from "pbi" on this board:

Does a degree make a better officer? I never believed that when I commissioned in 1983: I was an OCTP guy, with no degree, as were many of my peers. Then, times changed and in 2000-2001 I completed a degree through the Army. When I was serving in Afghanistan last year, my place of duty was the HQ of US Combined Joint Task Force 76, the operational-level HQ for US forces in that country. One day I sat down with the Chief of Staff, a very long-serving and tough old Infantry Colonel. I asked him if he thought having a degree made any difference. What he said was basically this: up to abut Coy Comd, it probably doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of difference. But, after that, in command at battalion and above, in staff positions, in teaching positions at military educational establishments, in multi-national forces and HQs, in working with non-military agencies, and in designing campaigns, strategy or policy, he stated that the educational experience was invaluable not because of the "stuff" that was taught in university, but rather in the broadening and deepening of the minding and the training of its processes and habits. I still agree with this.

Another example of the value of a Masters degree is that it will allow you to enrol in a PhD program of War Studies (or any other PhD program).

Anyway, back to my original question..  I guess there is nothing in writing (from the CDS) that decrees that a degree (done on your own time and expense) has military value, or that it should bump up your pay increment at all...  Oh well...

 

[George Wallace]

I thought I remembered reading on this board a directive of some sort that said, "a degree is automatically deemed to have military value".  It wasn't recent, and my search didn't turn it up. I believe it was referring to a bachelor degree.  But I think that for example a (at least one) degree is a requirement to be an officer, doesn't matter what field it is is, so that must make it clearly of military value?  Completion of a degree requires developing some minimum level of self-discipline, academic ability, study skills, performance under pressure (exams) etc, which I believe is of value in the military..

Having a "piece of Paper" hanging on your wall has become the common denominator in all levels of Canadian Government and Private business in the last thirty years or so.  Apparently it is an indication that you know what he heck you are talking about and are magically a manager.  Unfortunately the Canadian social geniuses haven't figured out that it means No such thing.  The CF is playing "keeping up with the Jones (Canadian society as some mucky mucks seem to see it)".  You can hold a degree and still be a "Thud".  We all know the brainiac who can tell you the square root of Pi and its relation to the cosmos to the nth degree, but unable to give you directions to the washroom.

Completion of any military course requires developing a high level of self-discipline, academic ability, study skills, performance under pressure (Practical, ECs and PCs) etc, so your questions seem to be moot.

 

[Maxadia]

So to play devil's advocate here, George, are there any degrees that you would deem worthwhile and of military value?

I'm not asking to be an *** here....I'm asking if there has been something in your vast experience that you have come across, that you have thought "You know what, that sounds like it could be a useful degree...."

BTW....I completely agree with the above.  In certain school divisions I know, to get into the admin pool, you need a Masters Degree.  ANY Masters degree.  Masters of Advanced Underwater Basket Weaving?  You're a shoo-in.  :

 

[ballz]

Completion of a degree requires developing some minimum level of self-discipline, academic ability, study skills, performance under pressure (exams) etc

I'm not sure when you did your undergraduate or what you did it in, but I would argue that these days completion of a Bachelor's degree increasingly just requires that you pay 4 years of tuition, for most programs anyway.

Unfortunately the Canadian social geniuses haven't figured out that it means No such thing.

The private sector has though, just ask the current crop of people graduating with a Bachelor's from *most* faculties that can't get a job. Unfortunately, due to university standards being watered down, not to mention a huge surplus in supply, employer's have learned to think twice that a Bachelor's degree means a certain level of competence.

So to play devil's advocate here, George, are there any degrees that you would deem worthwhile and of military value?

I haven't made it to a unit yet so take it with a grain of salt, but when I've done EWAT accounting skills seem to be in demand. A few Cbt Arms officers that I was doing some basic stuff for were expressing that they were thinking of taking some accounting courses at the local university, especially after seeing their is a system they could use for their soup sandwich of administration. One of them told me (when I was expressing how useless I think a BBA is), "It doesn't matter what you're trade/job is, you're always dealing with two things, people and money."

Of course, my argument was that doing 3 or 4 accounting courses is probably a lot more efficient that doing a 4 year BBA, and would bring the same value. So, rather than suggest any specific degree as being more or less useful, I'll suggest just doing a few accounting electives during whatever degree someone does choose :nod:

 

[SentryMAn]

The Undergrad in today's society is simply the High School diploma from 30 years ago.

The military has to understand that to get people with advanced standing like MBA, MSW, CGA, CA, CMA, CFP, P. Eng, Law ETC, etc.
They will need to become much more like their civilian counterparts and wage match.

If you have a Log o with a specialization in Finance then it would be good if they had the professional programs like a CGA/CA/CMA which gives them the advanced abilities in their field.

This is the industry I am currently in so I can only speak to it.

An undergraduate degree tells an employer one thing, you have an ability to "learn", higher marks = better standing.  Many students don't understand this portion of their university careers and prefer to spend hours and hours partying rather then studying.

 

[Sadukar09]

The Undergrad in today's society is simply the High School diploma from 30 years ago.

The military has to understand that to get people with advanced standing like MBA, MSW, CGA, CA, CMA, CFP, P. Eng, Law ETC, etc.
They will need to become much more like their civilian counterparts and wage match.

If you have a Log o with a specialization in Finance then it would be good if they had the professional programs like a CGA/CA/CMA which gives them the advanced abilities in their field.

This is the industry I am currently in so I can only speak to it.

An undergraduate degree tells an employer one thing, you have an ability to "learn", higher marks = better standing.  Many students don't understand this portion of their university careers and prefer to spend hours and hours partying rather then studying.

I'm not so sure about that one.

Who would employers choose? A person with high marks but no extracurricular activities, or one with decent marks but with very many?

 

[George Wallace]

RDJP

I can not think of any "general" Degree that would be deemed worthwhile and of military value.  It would be relevent to have an Engineering Degree if one wanted to become an CELE O, ENGR O or Maint O. 

The Undergrad in today's society is simply the High School diploma from 30 years ago.

This sort of equates to the cost of bread in Germany in the 1930's.  Same bread, but highly inflated in value.

The military has to understand that to get people with advanced standing like MBA, MSW, CGA, CA, CMA, CFP, P. Eng, Law ETC, etc.
They will need to become much more like their civilian counterparts and wage match.

Sort of a bidding war to get the best.  Who wins?  Who loses?

If you have a Log o with a specialization in Finance then it would be good if they had the professional programs like a CGA/CA/CMA which gives them the advanced abilities in their field.

If we still had Fin O's that may matter, but plain old Log O's just need some common sense and management skills.

An undergraduate degree tells an employer one thing, you have an ability to "learn", higher marks = better standing. 

Not necessarily.  I have known many who have photographic memories.  They would always score high marks on tests.  Ask them to do anything practical, that was outside of the "textbook example" and they were screwed.  Many of them had no personal skills, man management skills, etc.  Definitely the wrong choices for higher management.  Another argument to support that a Degree is only a piece of paper and really meaningless.

 

[Maxadia]

RDJP

I can not think of any "general" Degree that would be deemed worthwhile and of military value.  It would be relevent to have an Engineering Degree if one wanted to become an CELE O, ENGR O or Maint O. 

Thanks George, but I should have been more specific...."masters" degree.  Would there be a specific Master's Degree that would be useful....Strategic Studies, Military Studies, etc.  Something geared specifically towards military personnel, that would not be just a "feather in your hat" degree.

 

[infant]

George made some valid observations that there are lots of useless people with degrees, and invaluable people without them, but to me this doesn't mean that learning something is useless (although I hear that argument often from a certain 10 year old girl who doesn't see the need to learn French).  These are good reasons for not relying solely on a degree as a measure of someone's worth.  However I don't believe that useless people became more useless because they got a degree.  And I think anyone who takes it upon themselves to learn something is bettering themselves.

I thought about my own education, and one of the most valuable learnings for me was participating in case study discussions and hearing viewpoints from people with different cultural and industry backgrounds that broadened my views on how to solve problems. 

I found this article
http://www.revue.forces.gc.ca/vo11/no2/doc/08-horn-eng.pdf

and I liked the following quote from it which makes the point that education can be a partial substitute for experience.

Equally important, this type of study provides vicarious
experience. As already articulated, experience is seen as sacrosanct,
and great emphasis is rightfully placed upon it. But, due
to real life limitations, experience is often constrained by time
and place. Scholarship, on the other hand, allows its virtual
experience to be timeless and to cover a wider breadth of
activity and circumstance. It provides soldiers with a greater
repertoire of scenarios, possible solutions, and context from
which to draw.

Infant

 

[MedCorps]

Would there be a specific Master's Degree that would be useful....Strategic Studies, Military Studies, etc.  Something geared specifically towards military personnel, that would not be just a "feather in your hat" degree.

So I asked my buddy this question today.  He is over at DGMP and lives this topic.  He sent me a list. He notes that there are 108 Masters and PhD  (although not many) level degrees that are of interest to the CF.  Each one is carefully scrutinized yearly for relevance and the completion of each degree is targeted at a specific job / set of jobs and hence it is often restricted to a MOC. 

Here is the list for giggles.  Some of the more exotic topics are done in the US / UK or elsewhere.  Sometimes more then one type of post grad degree will meet the requirements of the post grad degree topic listed below.

There are of course the Air Force guys... mostly guys who are designing airplane systems:

AERE

Aircraft Structures 
Aircraft Propulsion Systems
Aerodynamics
Systems Engineer – Avionics Instrumentation
Design, Development and Selection of Air Weapons
Aerospace Systems Engineering
Aircraft Communications Systems Engineering
Imaging Systems Engineering
Signal Processing Systems
Non-Destructive Testing
Radar Systems Research and Circuit Design
Reliability, Maintainability and Systems Analysis
Underwater Acoustics
Electro-Optics Engineering and Maintenance
Human Factor Engineering
ADP Management Information Systems
Advanced Ammunition Engineering
Airborne Electronic Warfare Systems
Masters of Science and Engineering in Robotics

Air Combat Systems Officer

Human Factor Engineering
Navigation Technology

Pilot

Navigation Technology

Then there are the signals types:

Signals and CELE Officers

Telecommunications Management
Radar Systems Research and Circuit Design
Reliability, Maintainability and Systems Analysis
Electro-Optics Engineering and Maintenance
ADP Management Information Systems
Electrical Engineering – Communications
Land Data Fusion Systems
Masters of Science and Engineering in Robotics

CELE

Radar System Design

And the Navy folks who do advanced stuff with ships.

Naval Combat Systems Engineering

Combat Systems Engineering
Radar System Design
Industrial Engineering
Reliability, Maintainability and Systems Analysis
Underwater Acoustics
Guided Weapons Systems
ADP Management Information Systems
Electrical Engineering – Communications
Advanced Ammunition Engineering
Masters of Science and Engineering in Robotics
Naval Architecture
Interdisciplinary Masters in Asia Pacific Studies

Maritime Surface and Sub-Surface Officer

Advanced Ammunition Engineering
Survey Engineering
Ocean Acoustics
Interdisciplinary Masters in Asia Pacific Studies


Marine Systems Engineering

Master of Engineering (Electrical)
Marine Systems – Control and Instrumentation Engineering
Marine Engineering
Industrial Engineering
Reliability, Maintainability and Systems Analysis
Guided Weapons Systems
ADP Management Information Systems
Naval Architecture
Masters of Science and Engineering in Robotics
Masters of Engineering  – Fire Safety
Interdisciplinary Masters in Asia Pacific Studies

Naval Engineering Officer

Interdisciplinary Masters in Asia Pacific Studies

And the engineers who build things and project manage:

Engineer Officer and Construction Engineering Officer

Environmental Engineering
Town Planning
Research and Development Explosives
ADP Management Information Systems

Construction Engineering Officer

Soil Mechanics
Facilities Manager

Electrical Mechanical Engineering Officer

Land Mobility Systems
Land Weapon Systems (Ballastic)
Radar System Design
Radar Systems Research and Circuit Design
Industrial Engineering
Reliability, Maintainability and Systems Analysis
Guided Weapons Systems
Electro-Optics Engineering and Maintenance
ADP Management Information Systems
Electrical Engineering – Communications
Advanced Ammunition Engineering
Masters of Science and Engineering in Robotics

Engineer Officer

Human Factor Engineering
Advanced Ammunition Engineering
Masters of Science and Engineering in Robotics

And the other specialists...

Military Police Officer

Police Research

Intelligence Officer – Sea

Master of Arts in War Studies (Intelligence)
Interdisciplinary Masters in Asia Pacific Studies

Legal Officer

International Law
Contract Law
Constitutional Law
Criminal Law
Military Law
Legislative Drafting

Logistics Officer (Any)

Nutrition and Food Services Standards Specialist
Food Service Administration
Advanced Ammunition Engineering

Training Development Officer

Instructional Technology
Human Performance Technology

Personnel Selection Officer

Psychology (MA or MSc or PhD)

Chaplain

Canon Law
Ethics
Pastoral Counselling
Ecumenism

And health services folk.

Dental Officer

Oral Maxillo facial Surgery
Prosthodontics
Periodontics
Public Health Dentistry
General Dentistry

Pharmacy Officer

Pharmacy

Medical Officer

Advanced Aerospace Medicine
Hyperbaric Physiology and Diving Medicine
Health Services Administration

Medical Specialist Officer

Thoracic Surgery
Anaesthesia
Internal Medicine
Psychiatry
Diagnostic Radiology
General Surgery
Orthopaedic Surgery


Health Care Administration Officer / Health Services Operations Officer

Health Services Administration

Bio Science Officer

Industrial Hygiene and Occupational Health
Human Factor Engineering

Nursing Officer

Nursing

Physiotherapy Officer

Physiotherapy

And some combat arms guys... mostly tech staff dudes

Infantry / Armour / Artillery Officer

Land Weapon Systems (Ballastic)
Human Factor Engineering

Artillery Officer

Guided Weapons Systems

Then there is a collection of Post Grads which are targeted for specific jobs that any CF officer who is interested, able to get into a grad school program and in the right place at the time to fill the slot can be sent on.

Any Officer

Space Systems Operations
Operations Research/Systems Analysis
Electrical Engineering Real Time Digital Systems
Mechanical Engineering
Civil Engineering
Nuclear Engineering
Chemical Engineering
Computer Systems Design
System Engineering (Logistics Option)
Economics
Masters of Business Administration
Military and Strategic Studies
Computer Software Management
Mathematics
Physics (MSc or PhD)
Financial Management
English (PhD)
History (PhD)
Politics (PhD)
Special Operations Defence Analyst
Applied Ethics
Modelling and Simulation
Force Protection Engineering
Masters of Defence Engineering and Management
Research and Development – Subsurface Sensing
Computer Network Security


Enjoy

MC

 

[Maxadia]

Thanks MC.

Any chance we could get this list cut out, and stickied somewhere prominent where people could be directed to?  Feel free to stick a disclaimer on it as well, that getting one of these does NOT guarantee you anything.

But it is a nice list of relevant degrees out there.

 

[MedCorps]

It will only get you one thing if you are sponsored to take the PG.... a posting to the targeted position that was designed to be filled by someone with that post-grad.... and that is not even guaranteed.

MC

 

[matthew1786]

The Undergrad in today's society is simply the High School diploma from 30 years ago.

After completing roughly two (out of four) years of Electrical Engineering at McGill University, I can tell you that you are either completely mistaken or are generalizing way too much. To put this into perspective, just last term we had to build a fully functional autonomous robot from scratch capable of performing fairly complex specific tasks, in 6 weeks time. When I explained the project to my folks (who graduated from high school about 30 years ago) they could not comprehend on how someone even goes about starting something like that.

If you perceive that the "standard" has simply translated from a high school diploma 30 years ago to a Bachelors degree today, you may be mistaken. This so called standard has evolved to the point where an individual can (unfortunately) no longer be accredited in his or her certain proficient skills or abilities unless they possess the means in which equates them to (or elevates them from) the norm; vis-a-vie today's Bachelor's degree. How does that effect the way education has integrated itself into society? Simple, when there are too many people trying to fill too little spots, the criteria for a competitive screening process is adopted. Because education is so fundamental, it is only natural to look there first when adopting such a screening process. However, this in no way or means equates the high school diploma from 30 years ago (or ever for that matter) to the Bachelor's degree of today.

The skills, abilities, and knowledge that an individual acquires from earning a post-secondary education will almost always surmount above and beyond what anyone can achieve in similar respect at the high school level. Maturity, leadership, discipline, a sense of duty, etc., are fundamental military-type qualities which I do no not believe (for the most part) are found or developed in an academic environment. Which is why of course academics are not the sole criteria for screening applicants in the CF.

It is my belief that this is why the CF demands that all officers posses a Bachelors degree. For one, their "best and brightest" must be able to hold themselves to at least the same standards as their civilian world counterparts in all aspects; including level of education. Secondly, and as hard as it is for a lot of folks to accept, having a degree does actually make an individual better qualified in terms of skill, ability, and knowledge (where these three traits are assumed to be umbrella like terms with respect to academia).

Now, because I am a merely just an applicant, whether or not the CF properly allocates the necessities of specific post-secondary degrees to specific occupations is an entire different ball game which I can not comment on. In respect to the OP, pay increments following further levels of education most likely falls under the category of, "you'll receive the schooling and it's benefits only if it applies directly to the position we are offering you".