NYC subway passenger dies after another puts him in a headlock

[Fishbone Jones]

It's hard to find anything but left side, poor victim, let's pillage and burn stuff. Lots of it. I caught part of an interview tonight that didn't follow that. When I cut in there was about a 3 minutes left. In that time the victims buskers MJ act was questioned in that he hasn't performed in about 5-6 years. I didn't get the whole arrest and incidents count. Apparently, according to the program, he had quite a violent history, including some aboard the subway cars. Some of them happened in the subway proper where he had charges and arrests for jumping the turnstile and that he lived down there and used to harass and threaten passengers for being on his property. He's also supposed to have had an open warrant for his arrest. I won't stand up for the veracity of the statements as I haven't had time to cross reference them. I'll try tomorrow.

I'm wondering given Neely's physical violence on cars before, if the three people who pinned him hadn't witnessed it before. I can't remember the last time I've seen bystanders jump into a public fight to help. Unless it's 50 Antifa types trying to get a buddy from the cops. Especially considering the reported attitude of a typical New Yorker.

 

[mariomike]

Super interesting stuff, thank you. I noted that in the first post on this- weapons or violence makes the call ineligible for this team.

Our S.O.P. was,

4. wait for police assistance if,

a. there is an active shooter scenario, or
b. there is direct evidence of ongoing violence;

5. if electing to delay service as per paragraph 4 above, immediately notify CACC/ACS;

The key word is highlighted.

Regarding,

NYC subway passenger dies after another puts him in a headlock​

FDNY EMS B-HEARD program for mentally ill people like Jordan Neely couldn’t answer 1 in 4 calls last year.

B-HEARD left 600 distress calls unanswered in fiscal 2022

The City must identify ways to rapidly improve the performance of the B-HEARD program in the current areas before expanding the program to new locations.”

“It would be unacceptable if ambulances and EMTs were unavailable for 25% of medical emergencies, and it’s unacceptable that that is the case for mental health emergencies,” said Chat, whose group provides pretrial mental health services and support to over 9,000 New Yorkers annually.

Neely, who was choked to death by a straphanger on a downtown F train earlier this week, would likely have been an ideal candidate for B-HEARD given his prior run-ins with cops due to his mental illness — even though the program doesn’t yet operate in Manhattan.

B-HEARD operates in Harlem, and some areas of Brooklyn and Queens.

B-HEARD is set to expand its pilot footprint even further under Mayor Eric Adams’ 2024 budget with a $2 million increase in funding — but without adding any extra staffers.

The B-HEARD teams, made up of two EMS workers and a mental health professional, were able to respond to 1,700 other calls in 2022 — making up 73% of the total requests they received.

But without enough teams to handle the volume, the program — which has had serious staffing challenges — left more than 600 calls for help unanswered over the year span, sources told The Post.

B-Heard has had a much harder time getting people on board.

Big surprise.

 

[Booter]

Big surprise.

It is my observation that these types of initiatives are hard to recruit for- whether it’s mixed social services or pre-hospital nursing deployments etc when they are discussed.

Because while everyone is very quick to tell you that this is the solution- the person who wants to be the crisis solution who takes on the overwhelming workload associated with this kind ve work isn’t there- burn out in any of these programs will be astronomical- they will daily interact with the same person running into the same bottlenecks. People would tell you the “solution” but they don’t want the job.

If they are a person who takes that kindve stuff on- they are trying to get into one of the emergency services. These types of positions would be harder still- constant moral injury combined with being exposed to danger.

 

[mariomike]

It is my observation that these types of initiatives are hard to recruit for-

In spite of the 6% pay increase, this told me how much, or little, enthusiasm there is to join the B-HEARD program.

FDNY EMS may need to mandate members to participate.

 

[Booter]

6% to be entrenched in the most frustrating calls constantly…I’ll pass

 

[mariomike]

Bernie Goetz, the original "subway vigilante" had this to say,

He killed Michael Jackson,” Goetz said, referring to Neely’s performances impersonating the King of Pop in Times Square and on the subway. “He got to pay.
I think Michael Jackson, tattoos, piercings, and cocaine all suck equally.”

B-HEARD covers from East Harlem to the Hudson River. Washington Heights, Inwood, and the South Bronx. East New York and Brownsville. In March 2023, the Mayor announced the City’s commitment to expand B-HEARD citywide as part of his Mental Health Plan. That same month, B-HEARD expanded into parts of Queens for the first time, and additional neighborhoods in Brooklyn.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Isn’t who the father of the alleged assailant is about as relevant as the criminal record of the victim, in this instance?

Well, to be fair, there seems to be a sort of Presidential precedent...

Biden defends son Hunter ahead of possible federal tax, gun charges​

“My son has done nothing wrong,” Biden said in an interview with MSNBC host Stephanie Ruhle, as the Justice Department conclude a criminal investigation.

Biden defends son Hunter ahead of possible federal tax, gun charges

“My son has done nothing wrong,” Biden said in an interview with MSNBC host Stephanie Ruhle, as the Justice Department conclude a criminal investigation.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Jarnhamar]

Not excusing the choke but people in general are probably tired of feeling threatened in public and waiting to be attacked.

If I was on a bus or subway in Toronto with vulnerable people around and someone started acting like a psycho I would disable them and deal with the aftermath. It beats seeing a 16-year-old kid stabbed in the neck or a woman set on fire.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Not excusing the choke but people in general are probably tired of feeling threatened in public and waiting to be attacked.

If I was on a bus or subway in Toronto with vulnerable people around and someone started acting like a psycho I would disable them and deal with the aftermath. It beats seeing a 16-year-old kid stabbed in the neck or a woman set on fire.

IOW, you'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6?

 

[mariomike]

If I was on a bus or subway in Toronto with vulnerable people around and someone started acting like a psycho I would disable them and deal with the aftermath.

Good for you.

Lots of scary places in Canada.

Crime severity index in Canada in 2021, ranked by metropolitan area

Lethbridge
Winnipeg
Kelowna
Saskatoon
Regina
Edmonton
Moncton
Thunder Bay
Vancouver
Sudbury
Windsor
Brantford
Calgary
Abbotsford-Mission
Victoria
London
Kitchener-Cambridge-Waterloo
St. John's NFLD and Labrador
Belleville
Guelph
Peterborough
Halifax
St. Catherines
Hamilton
Montreal
Ottawa - Gatineau Quebec part
St. John New Brunswick
Ottawa - Gatineau Ontario part
Sherbrook
Trois-Rivieres
Toronto

Crime severity index by metropolitan area in Canada 2023 | Statista

This statistic shows the crime severity index value of metropolitan areas in Canada in 2023.

www.statista.com

 

[KevinB]

Not excusing the choke but people in general are probably tired of feeling threatened in public and waiting to be attacked.

If most people were so fricken useless they wouldn’t be frightened or threatened.

If I was on a bus or subway in Toronto with vulnerable people around and someone started acting like a psycho I would disable them and deal with the aftermath. It beats seeing a 16-year-old kid stabbed in the neck or a woman set on fire.

Another acting erratically is definitely cause to raise your personal alert level, but it doesn’t give you the right to assault that individual.

Keep in mind the law is there to protect everyone.

If you aren’t comfortable trying to engage them in a conversation to attempt to deescalate the situation, then take a position near them ideally in their blind spot close enough to act if you suspect something might occur.

Simply causing a disturbance doesn’t allow for an individual to assault someone else.

 

[Kat Stevens]

If most people were so fricken useless they wouldn’t be frightened or threatened.


Another acting erratically is definitely cause to raise your personal alert level, but it doesn’t give you the right to assault that individual.

Keep in mind the law is there to protect everyone.

If you aren’t comfortable trying to engage them in a conversation to attempt to deescalate the situation, then take a position near them ideally in their blind spot close enough to act if you suspect something might occur.

Simply causing a disturbance doesn’t allow for an individual to assault someone else.

I refer once again to my son. If he were to go into one of his stimming sessions on a bus and some rando fucker who knows or cares the square root of fuck all about autistic behaviours were to choke him out, said rando fucker better be looking over his shoulder for the rest of his life. If rando can take the law into his own hands, so can I. People suck.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Simply causing a disturbance doesn’t allow for an individual to assault someone else.

You're right it doesn't. I was referring to something more along these lines:

CCC 265(1)(b) he attempts or threatens, by an act or a gesture, to apply force to another person, if he has, or causes that other person to believe on reasonable grounds that he has, present ability to effect his purpose;

 

[mariomike]

Wonder if they had enough sense to shut down the third rail.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1654974675682721798

 

[Booter]

Wonder if they had enough sense to shut down the third rail.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1654974675682721798

I wish these people would go to school and become advocates working in mental health and social work.

Yes some of them probably are- but we could use more.

 

[KevinB]

You're right it doesn't. I was referring to something more along these lines:

Understood, but one thing a lot of Mil forget (and even off duty LE) is the definition of reasonable person might not include them.
There is some case law that basically means your previous experience and training will often work against you in certain situations.

The jury isn’t actually going to be 12 peers who have similar backgrounds and experiences, they will in fact not have any Mil or LE there at all.

Self Defense aspects of common law, requires a threat.
If you act prior to a clearly articulable threat (from the reasonable person standpoint that the jury, or trial judge will accept) then you are the attacker - and the other has every right to defend themselves against you.

Furthermore, unlike LE, a civilian entering into a use of force incident is required to use the minimum force necessary (yes LEA’s have UOF Policy’s - but at the of the day the LEO is commissioned by a government to use force on behalf of the state for law and order)

Putting someone in a chicken wing or arm bar is a way better method of restraint against most people, as pain compliance without the risk of death is preferable to a choke hold.

The fact that pain compliance isn’t usually effective on a lot of EDP or Drugged out Zombies, means one needs to be that much more careful when dealing with them.

TBF if I end up needing to use a choke on someone, I suspect things have gone significantly sideways, and the incident had become a life or death struggle, and I hadn’t been able to shoot them (or shoot them enough) yet.



The biggest issue in this case is that someone ended up dead who didn’t need to die. I don’t care the color of the deceased or the person who caused it - the facts are that there was no reason for the deceased to have been killed.
Simply making people nervous isn’t a reason to use deadly force, and even if the perpetrator didn’t intend for it to be lethal, Jordan Neely died as a result.
That is a crime.

 

[Jarnhamar]

TBF if I end up needing to use a choke on someone, I suspect things have gone significantly sideways, and the incident had become a life or death struggle, and I hadn’t been able to shoot them (or shoot them enough) yet.

I've only ever had to use a chokehold 5 or 6 times (No MarioMike I don't mean at the Oaisis club). I've always found it perfect for deescalating a situation and thought it was really hamstringing police when they're ordered not to use it. It seems better than punching someone in the face 10 times with reinforced gloves.

Then again I don't take into consideration that someone would choke someone else for 15 minutes like in the story here. I can't begin to understand the thought process there.

 

[mariomike]

I wish these people would go to school and become advocates working in mental health and social work.

Yes some of them probably are- but we could use more.

Never know what to expect on a Wellness Check.

 

[KevinB]

I've only ever had to use a chokehold 5 or 6 times (No MarioMike I don't mean at the Oaisis club). I've always found it perfect for deescalating a situation and thought it was really hamstringing police when they're ordered not to use it. It seems better than punching someone in the face 10 times with reinforced gloves.

Then again I don't take into consideration that someone would choke someone else for 15 minutes like in the story here. I can't begin to understand the thought process there.

If I’m put in a chokehold, I’m going to do my best to kill the guy doing it. As if you’re unconscious, you are helpless, and your gun/knife etc are now theirs.

Again a different circumstance, but again consider the guy who is getting a chokehold by a non LEO may feel the same way…

I personally don’t like chokeholds for LEO’s from a practical standpoint, if you’re busy giving a chokehold, you don’t have any means of defense against others.
When you get limb control and pain compliance (or break/tear the limb if they aren’t complying and still a dangerous threat) you can still have a free hand for baton, taser, or pistol (and OFC radio). 15 ish years ago I got into a 20:4 brawl with my training officer and 2 others, eventually it was a 20:~34 as every car from the nearby sheriff and state police showed up for hickory shampoo time (baton shampoo doesn’t have the same ring but it left me with a very defined desire for a free hand, and never get sucked into a ground fight when you are outnumbered, and I consider myself a decent fighter, and very proficient with weapons, but you can’t effectively fight a 5 or 6 to 1, and you don’t necessarily want to resort to pistol when dealing with belligerent drunks unless you really really really have too.

@brihard and other may have a different take, based on their experiences.

 

[brihard]

If I’m put in a chokehold, I’m going to do my best to kill the guy doing it. As if you’re unconscious, you are helpless, and your gun/knife etc are now theirs.

Again a different circumstance, but again consider the guy who is getting a chokehold by a non LEO may feel the same way…

I personally don’t like chokeholds for LEO’s from a practical standpoint, if you’re busy giving a chokehold, you don’t have any means of defense against others.
When you get limb control and pain compliance (or break/tear the limb if they aren’t complying and still a dangerous threat) you can still have a free hand for baton, taser, or pistol (and OFC radio). 15 ish years ago I got into a 20:4 brawl with my training officer and 2 others, eventually it was a 20:~34 as every car from the nearby sheriff and state police showed up for hickory shampoo time (baton shampoo doesn’t have the same ring but it left me with a very defined desire for a free hand, and never get sucked into a ground fight when you are outnumbered, and I consider myself a decent fighter, and very proficient with weapons, but you can’t effectively fight a 5 or 6 to 1, and you don’t necessarily want to resort to pistol when dealing with belligerent drunks unless you really really really have too.

@brihard and other may have a different take, based on their experiences.

Haven’t had to use a chokehold in a real situation. I could only really see it in a situation where a fight’s gone badly to ground and I find myself in a momentary position of advantage against someone who’s tried going for one of my weapons or something. It’s not a technique I’d try to line up to use.

Someone tries to put a chokehold on me? My life is in immediate danger, both their hands are committed, and they can’t see my gun hand. They’re probably getting shot.