NYC subway passenger dies after another puts him in a headlock

[mariomike]

Once your EDP has been landed on the stretcher, positional asphixia is a concern.

Two Springfield EMS face first-degree murder charges​

Two Springfield emergency medical workers face first-degree murder charges

Two LifeStar emergency medical technicians have each been charged with first-degree murder.

www.sj-r.com

Moore died of "compressional and positional asphyxia due to prone face-down restraint on a paramedic transportation cot/stretcher by tightened straps across the back," said Sangamon County Coroner Jim Allmon on Tuesday.

Also claims of "a racial component",

Teresa Haley, president of the Springfield branch of the NAACP and its state director, said she thought there was a racial component to the actions of the EMTs because Moore was Black.

Haley said she thought of George Floyd when she watched the footage.

Lot of old fashioned methods like "the sandwich" etc. that would frowned upon today.

The NYC "subway vigilante " may, or may not, be able to claim he didn't know any better. But, professionals can not.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Lol, no thanks, I’m utterly disinterested in why you brought Soros into this particular discussion. You’re free to drag him into whatever thread you want, and I’m free to not take it seriously. I don’t owe you a discussion on that (or anything else), and it’s definitely not why I’m in this thread. If you want to talk about George Soros, I’m sure someone will indulge you. I’ll pass.

then you shouldn't have chided me about bringing him up. Sounds hypocritical.

 

[brihard]

then you shouldn't have chided me about bringing him up. Sounds hypocritical.

I’m comfortable with what I said, in the context I said it in.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Toleration of disorder eventually provokes matters-into-our-own-hands responses. Some responses will misjudge the situation and over-reach. The consequences of failure to maintain an orderly and civil society are predictable and were predicted. Having failed to achieve the more difficult goal, authorities must necessarily at least attempt to contain the consequences by applying the law. There is a source at which this category of problem ought to be fixed, and it is well upstream from where the effort will be spent.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I’m comfortable with what I said, in the context I said it in.

Me also.

 

[brihard]

Toleration of disorder eventually provokes matters-into-our-own-hands responses. Some responses will misjudge the situation and over-reach. The consequences of failure to maintain an orderly and civil society are predictable and were predicted. Having failed to achieve the more difficult goal, authorities must necessarily at least attempt to contain the consequences by applying the law. There is a source at which this category of problem ought to be fixed, and it is well upstream from where the effort will be spent.

Mm hm. By the time someone is hands-on on a subway, it’s likely that several facets of ‘the system’ have come up short.

 

[Haggis]

For NY (rough guide)

Offense	Sentence
'A' Violent Felony	Life, 20-25 years
'B' Violent Felony	5-25 years
'B' Non Violent Felony	1-3, Max 25 years
'C' Violent Felony	3 1/2 to 15 years
'C' Non Violent Felony	No Jail, Probation, 1-2 years to 15 years
'D' Violent Felony	2-7 years
'D' Non Violent Felony	No Jail, Probation, 1-3 to 7 years
'E' Violent Felony	No Jail, Probation, 1 1/2 to 4 years
'E' Non Violent Felony	No Jail, Probation, 1 1/3 to 4 years

My word, that's convoluted.

Back to the incident.


Which draws me back to what was the reason for the interaction in the first place.
The Individual(s) involved in the restraint are going to need to be able to articulate that, and show why there was a requirement for physical contact --

In fact, they would be smart to lawyer up and not articulate anything. Even an experienced LEO would have a hard time with this one, based on the facts publicly at hand, particularly the duration of restraint.. STFU is a valid COA in this situation. Let the witnesses and evidence speak for you.

I will also give the following caveats, I like an involved populace, and I heartily support those citizens who chose to intervene when a situation is going south. That said, interventions need to be conducted in accordance with the law, and if one isn't knowledgeable about the law, it's best to be a good witness and dial 911 if needed.

I agree with you in principle, but Joe Public isn't neccessarily trained or equipped to intervene effectively and safely. Observe, record AND call 9-1-1 (that last part is often overlooked during the TikTok recording part).

 

[KevinB]

My word, that's convoluted.

Welcome to the Law down here.

In fact, they would be smart to lawyer up and not articulate anything.

I was more meaning in court.

Even an experienced LEO would have a hard time with this one, based on the facts publicly at hand, particularly the duration of restraint.. STFU is a valid COA in this situation. Let the witnesses and evidence speak for you.

He’s going to need to take the stand in court.
Because he’s going to need to articulate why he acted the way he did, and convince the jury that his actions are what a reasonable person would do in his shoes.

I agree with you in principle, but Joe Public isn't neccessarily trained or equipped to intervene effectively and safely. Observe, record AND call 9-1-1 (that last part is often overlooked during the TikTok recording part).

Agreed.

Quite often Joe Public gets themselves in trouble with good intentions.
They don’t have a city, county, state or Country Governments authority or bank to help their issues if they arise.


My cardinal rule is generally don’t get involved unless it’s life or limb -

Even when I carried a badge, I was always very careful about interactions when off duty.

 

[CountDC]

Surprised that no one has mentioned the lengthy criminal record including violence or the alleged threat of violence at the time. All that has been mentioned was one witnesses supposed statement that supports the narrative the press wants out there.

 

[brihard]

Surprised that no one has mentioned the lengthy criminal record including violence or the alleged threat of violence at the time. All that has been mentioned was one witnesses supposed statement that supports the narrative the press wants out there.

It‘a been mentioned. Only the deceased’s actions at the time are relevant to the use of force; his record would not have been known to the man who ultimately killed him.

If he uttered threats, that will inform the determination as to whether the force used was justified. The onus will still be on the person who used force to articulate why he did so, and why he did specifically what he did, and how any threats made informed his thinking.

Bear in mind that even if the force initially used is justified, he’ll also need to explain why he didn’t release the fatal chokehold once any perceived threat was stopped. Continuing use of force has to be continuously reassessed.

 

[mariomike]

Some may remember him as a beloved subway tribute artist.

Others as a George Floyd 2.0 this long, hot summer.

Toronto had "Subway Elvis".

Subway Elvis alive and singing

Anyone down on the TTC’s lower Bloor West subway platform around 5 p.m. Saturday had a chance to experience something that happens Once in a Blue Moon.

torontosun.com

On the other hand, would not be surprised if a strap-hanger goes full-Bronson down in the electric sewer one day, or night.

 

[KevinB]

Surprised that no one has mentioned the lengthy criminal record including violence or the alleged threat of violence at the time. All that has been mentioned was one witnesses supposed statement that supports the narrative the press wants out there.

As @brihard mentioned that is not relevant to the issue.


Decent Article

Grand jury could get subway chokehold death of Jordan Neely case next week: ABC source

Protestors demand that charges be filed against the 24-year-old Marine seen on video putting Jordan Neely in a deadly chokehold.

abc7ny.com

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Relevant or not, to the actual physical incident, I think we should be aware of the myriad of problems the victim faced. Not the least of which is his previous MH conditions. It appears he self identified a number of times while interacting with police. It could give a better insight into what triggered the incident. Could it lead to extenuating circumstances when/ if it goes to court?

I'm not picking sides here, but I think the big picture needs looking at. Including the background of the assailants also. Would it not play to state of mind at the time?

MSN

 

[brihard]

Relevant or not, to the actual physical incident, I think we should be aware of the myriad of problems the victim faced. Not the least of which is his previous MH conditions. It appears he self identified a number of times while interacting with police. It could give a better insight into what triggered the incident. Could it lead to extenuating circumstances when/ if it goes to court?

I'm not picking sides here, but I think the big picture needs looking at. Including the background of the assailants also. Would it not play to state of mind at the time?

MSN

It’s definitely a case that, because of its prominence, will force a bit of attention and discourse back to some big picture problems society has. The criminal investigation and prosecution will probably be relatively narrow and straightforward. There are very fair questions to ask beyond that, about what supports were and weren’t in place for that thirty year old man, who lived with autism, experienced grievous trauma earlier in life, and who ended up begging/busking/dying in public spaces and on the NYC subway.

The state of mind of the suspect will definitely be relevant inasmuch as it’ll speak to his intent. I don’t at all think he entered that situation wanting or intending to kill Jordan Neely. What he did intend to do, and why he chose to do some things and not others, will matter a great deal. Potentially to the point of significantly impacting the severity of any charges laid, and likely being considered at sentencing should it come to that.

I think Canadian and American society are pretty similar in how poor the supports are for people with significant mental health issues. This whole thing didn’t need to happen.

 

[mariomike]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1654635423891595264

 

[daftandbarmy]

Meanwhile, Fox news is as per SOP:

Kayleigh McEnany mocks Jordan Neely protests on Fox: ‘At least they have rhythm’

Host smiled after describing protests against killing of Black homeless man

www.independent.co.uk

 

[brihard]

Meanwhile, Fox news is as per SOP:

Kayleigh McEnany mocks Jordan Neely protests on Fox: ‘At least they have rhythm’

Host smiled after describing protests against killing of Black homeless man

www.independent.co.uk

Oh, her. Yeah, that checks out.

 

[KevinB]

Relevant or not, to the actual physical incident, I think we should be aware of the myriad of problems the victim faced. Not the least of which is his previous MH conditions. It appears he self identified a number of times while interacting with police. It could give a better insight into what triggered the incident. Could it lead to extenuating circumstances when/ if it goes to court?

I'm not picking sides here, but I think the big picture needs looking at. Including the background of the assailants also. Would it not play to state of mind at the time?

MSN

One other issue is that a lot of the videos that are being played are of him in his MJ routine.
The recent pictures and videos show a major decline.

It’s a stark contrast, and no doubt his appearance, actions would startle and perhaps even frighten some commuters. However I don’t see that should give anyone a reason to physically interact with him. Get ready sure, dial 911 sure, but not a right to use force at that junction in time.

 

[dapaterson]

There are allegations that the individual who choked Mr Neely to death is the son of a retired senior NYPD officer.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

There are allegations that the individual who choked Mr Neely to death is the son of a retired senior NYPD officer.

Isn’t who the father of the alleged assailant is about as relevant as the criminal record of the victim, in this instance?