NYC subway passenger dies after another puts him in a headlock

[brihard]

If you can't pick a source to believe, there's lots more where these came from. I think it's relevent, because some of those DAs are in New York and might have involvement in the case. I just thought it might have had some relevance. But I'm not the expert here, am I. And seeing you discount that connection, I just have to be wrong and have no business to my layman's opinion. Sorry to intrude into your territory. Reply if you wish. I'm not continuing to take this off track or infringe on your professional advice. You can have your thread back.

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Two dozen progressive prosecutors linked to Soros money, report finds

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My invite stands. If you have any specific critique of the facts or reasoning I’ve relied on in the things I have talked about, feel free to argue your point. Although I’m fairly far from being a layman, I’m very far from an expert. If there’s a good faith discussion on something I’ve said, I’ll bring the best knowledge and civility I can to the table. But a rant is just a rant, and that’s what you entered the thread with and basically stuck to.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

No, no. You don't get to do that. You wanted to know how soros was involved or why I brought him into the conversation. I provided the info, you failed to give your critique or why it is or isn't relevant.

You don't think it has anything to do with this case. I think if the DA is soros backed, it could make a difference, whether it be charges, the court or the penalties or other things.

Discuss.

I have a funeral to go to. Take your time.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

No. Where is the father in all this, why is his son homeless? No, it's always societies and government fault for not providing enough social services. "He was a good kid" is the same old tired tale. Sounds like the dad just gave up on his son and left an autistic kid with mental health issues to fend for himself. The breakdown of a family network strikes again.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if he is over 18 years of age he is then is considered an adult and can pretty well do what he pleases, go where he pleases, etc, and his dad has very little say in the matter.

 

[OldSolduer]

No. Where is the father in all this

Sadly a number of people have said - me being one of them - the lack of positive male role models in society has a far reaching effect.

 

[brihard]

No, no. You don't get to do that. You wanted to know how soros was involved or why I brought him into the conversation. I provided the info, you failed to give your critique or why it is or isn't relevant.

You don't think it has anything to do with this case. I think if the DA is soros backed, it could make a difference, whether it be charges, the court or the penalties or other things.

Discuss.

I have a funeral to go to. Take your time.

Lol, no thanks, I’m utterly disinterested in why you brought Soros into this particular discussion. You’re free to drag him into whatever thread you want, and I’m free to not take it seriously. I don’t owe you a discussion on that (or anything else), and it’s definitely not why I’m in this thread. If you want to talk about George Soros, I’m sure someone will indulge you. I’ll pass.

 

[mariomike]

Regarding the location of the incident.

NYC announces plan to stop homeless New Yorkers and EDPs from sheltering on the subway.

How?

NYC announces plan to stop homeless New Yorkers from sheltering on the subway | 6sqft

New York City will increase enforcement of certain rules in the subway system as part of a broader safety plan announced by Mayor Eric Adams and the MTA on Friday.

6sqft.com

By enforcement of all the NYC subways rules that have existed for decades.

This was announced last year...

 

[Booter]

Regarding the city where this happened.

The FDNY EMS B-Heard program is working very well, according to the same people who run the the City of New York Behavioral Health Emergency Assistance Response Division.

View attachment 77500View attachment 77501



FDNY-EMS B-HEARD members are chosen on a volunteer basis with at least three years experience by the Senior Qualified Process.

They receive a 6% salary increase, including OT and pension. That's nice.

They receive an "in waranty bulletproof vest", and an additional five weeks of EDP training.

This part is interesting, if they don't get enough volunteers, "FDNY EMS may need to mandate members to participate."



Sounds like a sh^t detail.

Same as my first station, 800m from 999.
The lesson I learned about EDPs was to transfer out of a high volume area, soon as I had enough seniority.

Other than the extra $ bonus NYC is paying their members to "volunteer", only good thing I remember about EDPs ( must be a new term. not what we called them. ) was they usually walked.

Super interesting stuff, thank you. I noted that in the first post on this- weapons or violence makes the call ineligible for this team.

I managed/supervised a similar style of team briefly. A lot of limitations. Huge benefits- I fully support this kindve stuff- but I don’t believe I saw a dent in the sketchy MHA/EDP calls. It was good for moving the low pri- health calls out of 911 police dispatching- usually calls that shouldn’t even be tying up an ER visit,

For the heavy files- it’s still cops and handcuffs. Because of the risk. It appears in the NYPD example it is as well.

Similar happens in conversations about social workers- they don’t work 24 hours and they don’t work in active violence. Their degrees don’t give them a magic bullet for compliance for Unreasonable people in crisis.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

No. Where is the father in all this, why is his son homeless? No, it's always societies and government fault for not providing enough social services. "He was a good kid" is the same old tired tale. Sounds like the dad just gave up on his son and left an autistic kid with mental health issues to fend for himself. The breakdown of a family network strikes again.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if he is over 18 years of age then he is considered an adult and can pretty well do what he pleases, go where he pleases, etc, and his dad has very little say in the matter.

 

[brihard]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if he is over 18 years of age then is considered an adult and can pretty well do what he pleases, go where he pleases, etc, and his dad has very little say in the matter.

You’re not wrong. The victim was 30. There’s no information I’ve seen to suggest he had been deemed legally incompetent, or had been made anyone’s ward.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Does it all matter? Where was dad? Having a 30ish year old son, he was probably miles away doing something completely selfish, I’m sure. At the end of the day, no matter what socioeconomic mental health issues this guy had, just. Don’t. Matter. He harmed nobody, acted out and got killed. I have an adult child with autism, you wouldn’t know he had an issue if you didn’t ask, and he’s huge, and about as dangerous as a butterfly. He occasionally “stims”, flapping his arms about and verbalizing loudly. His way of coping with stressful situations. He lives 70 miles from me. If some “hero” decided to choke him out in the interest of the greater good, there would be a reckoning. One way or another.

 

[brihard]

Back to the incident.

My main issues was the method of restraint, and the apparent duration.
I know from personal experience than some forms of control can't be used on EDP's, and others are just really bad ideas (like a Chokehold).
There is enough data out on EDP interaction that a reasonable person should know their actions to certain stimuli will not be the same as an ordinary person.

Which draws me back to what was the reason for the interaction in the first place.
The Individual(s) involved in the restraint are going to need to be able to articulate that, and show why there was a requirement for physical contact -- individual citizens don't have unlimited liability in this situation, so even if they can show there was a reason for involvement that included physically assaulting the deceased, they have to go a lot further due to the result of the actions.

Even LEO Unlimited Liability only covers one when one is doing ones duty to the best of their ability, in accordance to policy.
We have seen other cases where LEO have been charged and convicted of exceeding their mandate.
- also anyone who has followed the various deaths involving chokes etc should know that it's a RFB idea to use it unless in a life or death struggle.

I will also give the following caveats, I like an involved populace, and I heartily support those citizens who chose to intervene when a situation is going south. That said, interventions need to be conducted in accordance with the law, and if one isn't knowledgeable about the law, it's best to be a good witness and dial 911 if needed.

Sorry Kev, I got sidetracked away from this.

Expanding on what Kev’s said: On the core events here- largely agreed. A ‘chokehold’ is very high risk. There’s a specific type some police forces use and others don’t, which is referred to as a ‘vascular neck restraint’, or more commonly a ‘blood choke’. A properly applied neck restraint - I’m trained to do them, and am also qualified to instruct and recertify others on them - works by putting pressure on the carotid arteries on either side of the neck. The restricted oxygenated blood flow to the brain can cause unconsciousness within seconds. When that happens, and resistance stops, we’re trained to ease up on the pressure on the neck so blood flow can resume- but we keep the hold firm ready to immediately reapply. What this DOESN’T do is it doesn’t cut off the air. It either works quite quick or it doesn’t really work, and someone could easily spend a lot of time trying to make it work and doing other damage instead, including to the airway.

A forensic pathologist conducting an autopsy on a choking victim can generally tell very clearly if death resulted from oxygenated blood being cut off, or air being cut off. There can be other medical evidence like location of bruising, and damage to bones and cartilage. Strangulation deaths are pretty bread and butter for pathologists. In this case, I suspect this would be an important part of the medical evidence. I expect this pathology opinion is already done and in hand.

As the suspect is apparently former military, there will likely be investigation into what (if any) specific training he received for this kind of technique. This investigation may be something police or the DA are awaiting, as it could be an important nuance for determining specific charges.

Defending the use of any kind of chokehold without there already being serious violence happening will be an uphill battle.

I stand by my belief that he will be criminally charged. I don’t have adequate info to speculate about likelihood of conviction generally or on any specific charge, because there’s lots we don’t know.

 

[Kat Stevens]

One is a choke, one is strangulation. Completely different animals.

 

[brihard]

One is a choke, one is strangulation. Completely different animals.

The terminology depends on the context. In martial arts, ‘blood choke’ will usually get used. Medically, ‘strangulation’ can mean either blood and/or air flow being occluded, and I used it that way when I referred to forensic pathologist examinations. Necks can get hurt a lot of ways, including a face-to-face choke many of us would colloquially call “strangling”. My service avoids either word in teaching the vascular neck restraint technique. The medical examiner in this case ruled the cause of death to be “compression of neck (chokehold)”.

So, different words with different nuances in different contexts. I believe everything I said remains accurate.

 

[Booter]

The media uses the two interchangeably which is wrong but they do. Police departments have also used “chokehold” where they shouldn’t be for ease of explanation. It’s a bad habit. Blood chokes in dynamic circumstances are also air chokes. Just because a carotid works quick doesn’t mean applying one does.

If you fight recreationally as a hobby, or even watch “UFC” you can observe quite easily that the road to getting an unconscious person with a blood choke can take time while you move the restraints into place- during this period you are most assuredly applying pressure on the airway while looking for the “blood choke”. You are not doing that because you want to be or because you’re trained to- you’re doing it because the person is fighting you and the systems run parallel.

It’s not as if when you fight that if you applied your restraint looking for the carotid sinus that if the person coughed you would immediately release everything and try again from square one- you snake and work yourself into the right position. Transitioning from pressure on the air system to the blood system.

Our own government conflates all “neck restraints” as being the same thing- as in Mendicinos mandate letter to the RCMP commissioner last year where he tried to make political hay by asking us to ban all “neck restraints” after the high profile incidents without understanding the nuance and difference in training and even “type”.

Imagine the stupidity of suggesting I can apply bullets to someone in a grievous bodily HARM or death situation but I can’t apply my arm.

I’m big and scary but I’m not THAT big and scary.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The media uses the two interchangeably which is wrong but they do. Police departments have also used “chokehold” where they shouldn’t be for ease of explanation. It’s a bad habit. Blood chokes in dynamic circumstances are also air chokes. Just because a carotid works quick doesn’t mean applying one does.

If you fight recreationally as a hobby, or even watch “UFC” you can observe quite easily that the road to getting an unconscious person with a blood choke can take time while you move the restraints into place- during this period you are most assuredly applying pressure on the airway while looking for the “blood choke”. You are not doing that because you want to be or because you’re trained to- you’re doing it because the person is fighting you and the systems run parallel.

It’s not as if when you fight that if you applied your restraint looking for the carotid sinus that if the person coughed you would immediately release everything and try again from square one- you snake and work yourself into the right position. Transitioning from pressure on the air system to the blood system.

And with very fit people it can still cause serious damage if things go wrong.

Applied to your average - very unhealthy - street rat? Moreso I would guess.

Meanwhile, it looks like the pitchforks and torches are coming out...

There is increasing uproar over the death of a homeless man and former Michael Jackson impersonator on New York’s Subway system who was allegedly held in a chokehold for 15 minutes by a train passenger after he began acting erratically.

The death of Jordan Neely has now been ruled a homicide yet the alleged killer was released without any charges being laid – at least for now.

Mr Neely has been remembered as a “sweet kid” who struggled with homelessness, petty criminality and mental health issues, particularly after the murder of his mother when he was a teenager.

Protests occurred on Thursday in New York with the death leading to a furious war of words. There are those who have claimed he was killed by a “vigilante without consequence” while others say the situation was more “complicated” and Subway riders may have been scared by Mr Neely’s behaviour.

Further fuelling longstanding tensions in the US, the victim was black while his alleged killer was white.

https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/fury-builds-over-death-of-a-homeless-man-in-the-new-york-subway-allegedly-by-a-fellow-passenger/news-story/3201913f1c89b0f645dc9e52e9915ce3

 

[Booter]

What a sad family history.

 

[Kat Stevens]

The terminology depends on the context. In martial arts, ‘blood choke’ will usually get used. Medically, ‘strangulation’ can mean either blood and/or air flow being occluded, and I used it that way when I referred to forensic pathologist examinations. Necks can get hurt a lot of ways, including a face-to-face choke many of us would colloquially call “strangling”. My service avoids either word in teaching the vascular neck restraint technique. The medical examiner in this case ruled the cause of death to be “compression of neck (chokehold)”.

So, different words with different nuances in different contexts. I believe everything I said remains accurate.

Wasn’t dumping on your post

 

[Halifax Tar]

To me this all depends on why he was put in the choke hold. Was it defensive or offensive?

 

[brihard]

Wasn’t dumping on your post

No worries, didn’t think you were. Just figured if something I said left ambiguity I might as well clear it up.

The media uses the two interchangeably which is wrong but they do. Police departments have also used “chokehold” where they shouldn’t be for ease of explanation. It’s a bad habit. Blood chokes in dynamic circumstances are also air chokes. Just because a carotid works quick doesn’t mean applying one does.

If you fight recreationally as a hobby, or even watch “UFC” you can observe quite easily that the road to getting an unconscious person with a blood choke can take time while you move the restraints into place- during this period you are most assuredly applying pressure on the airway while looking for the “blood choke”. You are not doing that because you want to be or because you’re trained to- you’re doing it because the person is fighting you and the systems run parallel.

It’s not as if when you fight that if you applied your restraint looking for the carotid sinus that if the person coughed you would immediately release everything and try again from square one- you snake and work yourself into the right position. Transitioning from pressure on the air system to the blood system.

Yup, all of this. Actually getting the restraint applied won’t be pretty and brings other risks. Anyone choosing to use it should know that and should understand that they’re taking huge risks.

Speaking for myself, it would have to be both a very bad and a very narrow set of circumstances for me to even try that as a restraint on someone. Anyone choking someone out that way should know that if it works it’s because you’ve cut off a basic necessity of life that can quickly lead to a fatality.

 

[Booter]

No worries, didn’t think you were. Just figured if something I said left ambiguity I might as well clear it up.


Yup, all of this. Actually getting the restraint applied won’t be pretty and brings other risks. Anyone choosing to use it should know that and should understand that they’re taking huge risks.

Speaking for myself, it would have to be both a very bad and a very narrow set of circumstances for me to even try that as a restraint on someone. Anyone choking someone out that way should know that if it works it’s because you’ve cut off a basic necessity of life that can quickly lead to a fatality.

100% and you’re proficient in it. Now extend that to people that are just requalified in it. It’s very narrow.