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Leadership and Non-Issue Gear

I'm not going to go that far in my own views.  If we got guys tromping around in Woodland Camo Jackets or MARPAT vests, we may be wondering who the hell they are.

As I said before, I say if it looks Canadian (CADPAT or OD/Tan), wear it - that's all your getting outta me, Kevin....
 
I was refering to rucks and LBE/armour systems.

  Even I can conform to uniforms - mind you I liked it when the DPM Gortex was issued  ;)

 
KevinB said:
I was refering to rucks

Ok, as long as you put a cover over it. ;D

and LBE/armour systems.

Well, if you're not using a PALS rig, you're crazy - so I still say no to German Flectarn Chest Rigs!!!  :D
 
It's funny,

I just scanned through the four pages here and discovered that no one has seriously addressed one of the dominant thoughts behind issue kit is it's replacement.

I am sure you can argue that companies will send their go faster kit everywhere you want to, but if for some reason your boots blow out chances are RQ doesn't carry that brand unless it's issue.  (Of course then you would have to wear issue stuff that you thoughfully packed in your follow-on kit until the CF mail arrives three months later).

I not preaching the above point - it's just one to consider.  

I remember being considered a 'rebel' for having a bren gun pouch on my webbing.  Then again the driving reason behind me buying and wearing an Arktis Jungle vest on tour was that my issue web gear just plumb fell apart due to wear and tear (having deployed with all the new pieces I could get).  Thankfully someone at brigade was selling Arktis.  

I wonder if I could 'get away' with wearing that vest now???

It's funny how as much as we preach train as you fight (or work-up as you peace keep) that people view enforcing all issue kit on leadership courses as acceptable.
 
The thing with replacement kit is that at least you can start with your good stuff and if it blows out go to the issued stuff.  I would hazard a guess that no one here would go abroad without the bare minimum in issued get (ie 1 pair of MK 3's) just in case.
 
IPC10 said:
I just scanned through the four pages here and discovered that no one has seriously addressed one of the dominant thoughts behind issue kit is it's replacement.

I am sure you can argue that companies will send their go faster kit everywhere you want to, but if for some reason your boots blow out chances are RQ doesn't carry that brand unless it's issue.  (Of course then you would have to wear issue stuff that you thoughfully packed in your follow-on kit until the CF mail arrives three months later).

Ok, I guess the distinction has to be made between non-issue kit that is "extra" and non-issue kit that is "replacement".

"Extra kit" isn't really a factor, since usually it is brought along because Bloggins happens to like it.  Bringing along your nice Hatch gloves or your own GPS shouldn't be an issue - just tell the soldiers to put their issued gloves at the bottom of their ruck.

As for "replacement gear", I guess there is just a level of acceptable risk to take.  If your Chest Rig blowout is so catastropic that it can't be fixed or mended (something I find unlikely) AND your duffelbag with your issue TACVEST (which you thoughtfully packed - something I've always done) hasn't been shipped, are we to assume that the RQ in theater has received a big box of TACVESTs and has them handy to get right to you?

Although you never stated it, I always found it silly to argue "what happens if it goes in the middle of battle?"  First off, if something I use goes in battle, I'm probably not going to wrap it up in gun tape, put my last 3 on it, and send it to the CQ.  In a real situation, when gear goes tits up soldiers will do what they always do, either improvise and fix it or (crass as it sounds) borrow something from another guy who doesn't need it anymore.

Matt Fisher has stated that the US military (the Marines at least) have approved lists of aftermarket gear.  Perhaps this would be a suitable middle ground for us as well - I don't see the USMC breaking down because aftermarket gear kicks the bucket in Fallujah.

It's funny how as much as we preach train as you fight (or work-up as you peace keep) that people view enforcing all issue kit on leadership courses as acceptable.

Isn't the uniformity used as a stress-factor.  Kinda hard to nail someone on inspection when he's got his Arktis rig layed out how he would take in into battle.  :)
 
Don't the Marines have to buy replacement kit.  Ie their intial issued shitty boots crap out we take them to clothing stores for exchange, I was under the impression that the Marines had to buy their next set whether it was issued intitially or not.
 
CFL said:
The thing with replacement kit is that at least you can start with your good stuff and if it blows out go to the issued stuff.   I would hazard a guess that no one here would go abroad without the bare minimum in issued get (ie 1 pair of MK 3's) just in case.

Not to be rude but isn't that what I said with my sentence:

IPC10 said:
 (Of course then you would have to wear issue stuff that you thoughfully packed in your follow-on kit until the CF mail arrives three months later).

as for the other post

Infanteer said:
As for "replacement gear", I guess there is just a level of acceptable risk to take.  If your Chest Rig blowout is so catastropic that it can't be fixed or mended (something I find unlikely) AND your duffelbag with your issue TACVEST (which you thoughtfully packed - something I've always done) hasn't been shipped, are we to assume that the RQ in theater has received a big box of TACVESTs and has them handy to get right to you?

Not too sure where you are going with this.  In my little story I needed repairs done to my webbing (belt was only thing not needing repairs) and the mat techs fixed but after a certain time frame.  I original reason I bought something was that I couldn't get a replacement - not that I tried that hard as I knew that purchase was an option.

My statement on courses was aimed at the field exercises.  Same reason why I don't wear my stealth suit in garrison, during garrison the issue kit works fine.  No need to wear you Oakley assaulter boots unless you're trying to do the old LCF thing.  You have bad knees/back?  Get a chit and get the Mark IIIs re-soled or get a chit for some danners.  Never meant to suggest that it is acceptable to use non-issue kit in garrison.  In my experience even the guys from ottawa played the game and bring regular issue kit for leadership courses at CTC.

Maybe we should look at the US model and have a list of acceptable equipment you could buy and use.  Problem might be to get a companies to produce their kit in CADPAT given the Canadian governments rules on that.

 
IPC10 said:
Not too sure where you are going with this.   In my little story I needed repairs done to my webbing (belt was only thing not needing repairs) and the mat techs fixed but after a certain time frame.   I original reason I bought something was that I couldn't get a replacement - not that I tried that hard as I knew that purchase was an option.

My statement on courses was aimed at the field exercises.   Same reason why I don't wear my stealth suit in garrison, during garrison the issue kit works fine.   No need to wear you Oakley assaulter boots unless you're trying to do the old LCF thing.   You have bad knees/back?   Get a chit and get the Mark IIIs re-soled or get a chit for some danners.   Never meant to suggest that it is acceptable to use non-issue kit in garrison.   In my experience even the guys from ottawa played the game and bring regular issue kit for leadership courses at CTC.

I never got a chit, but I bought (and consistenly wore) Danner's after developing a nasty case of tendonitis due to marching in the lovable MkIII's - no one raised an issue over it (I got them from the Regimental Kitshop   :)), so everything was fine and dandy.   It probably wasn't "chitable" (ie: not chronic), but the comfort level went up exponentially.

Maybe we should look at the US model and have a list of acceptable equipment you could buy and use.   Problem might be to get a companies to produce their kit in CADPAT given the Canadian governments rules on that.

I think this is the right way to go that will offer a workable compromise to those who want to experiment and those who insist on uniformity - it would be way better then the ad hoc and obscure way we go about dealing with the issue now.

The only items that really need to be covered under this is boots, jackets, LBE/vests, and backpacks/rucksacks.   I think that as long as each "vetted" kit manufacturer achieves a certain standard of worksmanship (sorry Blackhawk, no deal for you), then there shouldn't be an issue with replacement.   As I said, the US military seems to allow this and I don't see any real big problems coming out of its recent combat operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

CADPAT is getting out there - I know Tactical Tailor does stuff in CADPAT (that they get through the back door) and Dropzone makes good stuff with their license.   All we require is the CF to give the license out to a few more companies (Kifaru, PLEASE!) and there could be a fairly decent aftermarket supply.

Cheers,
Infanteer
 
The logic is it fails you, never really held water with me.  Specifically the gear I have is "bullet proof" since I have done ex's with half assed CF kit failing - and you know there just is never an RQ around when you need one.
  We where down in the States and we had over 5 broken ruck frames - issue kit - but guess if anyone had spares?  Of course not.

I am pretty sure my Paraclete and Kifaru kit will be going a lot longer than me...

One of the Hills Sgt Maj's made a comment about my kit (noting the ACOG etc.) heck, if he dies I bet there will be a bigger fight over his kit...

And,

Even I dont wear Oakley boots  ;D
 
KevinB said:
The logic is it fails you, never really held water with me.   Specifically the gear I have is "bullet proof" since I have done ex's with half assed CF kit failing - and you know there just is never an RQ around when you need one.
  We where down in the States and we had over 5 broken ruck frames - issue kit - but guess if anyone had spares?   Of course not.

That is what I was getting at.  We are assuming that the CF supply system is going to be better at replacing stuff.

As I said before, if it is issued or aftermarket and it goes tits up, a soldier is most likely going to have to adapt and improvise to get it in working order - if you buy from the right companies and maintain your gear, this should never be an issue....
 
British troops in Malaysia in the 50's and American troops in Vietnam often replaced most if not all of their kit after long operations in the jungle - boots and uniforms directly into the garbage on the way to the shower, and I would suspect our ancestors in WWI and II went through more than a few sets of gear. Uniforms, boots, and webbing just don't last that long. Maybe todays material are substantially better - I hope so. Some sources I've read mentioned British troops replacing their boots (destroyed by the march, the weather, and the terrain) with boots from dead Argentinians. Kit does and will fail. No doubt the issue stuff will fail first and most often. 

But, its unlikely RQ will be waiting in the rear with crates of new everything - heck, my unit has enough trouble getting the new stuff in Canada! But if your Danners give out, fine, get out the issue boots and keep going. 

Look Canadian from the outside, especially on the peace support operations where legitimacy and recognition are important.
Use issue kit on courses and when your new.
Do what you need to do to be comfortable and effective.

I'm sure everyone has seen the quote about the pretty parade-square army and the mean, dirty, combat field army...
 
" an inspection-ready army never passes combat, a combat-ready army never passes inspection" or something like that ....... ;D
 
Enfield said:
British troops in Malaysia in the 50's and American troops in Vietnam often replaced most if not all of their kit after long operations in the jungle - boots and uniforms directly into the garbage on the way to the shower, and I would suspect our ancestors in WWI and II went through more than a few sets of gear. Uniforms, boots, and webbing just don't last that long. Maybe todays material are substantially better - I hope so. Some sources I've read mentioned British troops replacing their boots (destroyed by the march, the weather, and the terrain) with boots from dead Argentinians. Kit does and will fail. No doubt the issue stuff will fail first and most often.

This came to my mind in this discussion - however, I have to wonder if this will be the case now.   I am interested to see AAR's from the US that indicate the failure rate of kit (issued or otherwise) for guys going into Fallujah or the Afghan Mountains.   I doubt they are dumping off their entire kit loadout into the bin when they return.

It seems the stuff we pack around today is quite resiliant if you got the right gear.
 
CFL:
In regard to the post about Marines being required to buy our own gear...that's half-true.   Each active duty Marine is given an annual clothing allowance that is for replacement of uniform items, such as boots, combat uniforms etc.   Each Marine will receive an initial issue while at boot camp, however after that, you're required to maintain the prescribed number and types of uniform items.   Now, depending on your billet and posting, you'll get issued organizational equipment from your unit, such as ruck, sleeping bag, load-bearing vest, body armor, etc.   That stuff you can exchange as it becomes unserviceable, same as in Canada.  The quality of kit we get from supply ranges from good to horrible.   On the good end is our sleeping bags, bivi sack, Interceptor Body Armor with SAPI plates, Marine Corps Individual First Aid Kit and Gore-Tex jacket and pants.   On the horrible side is the medium ALICE pack without frame (logic is that our packs just get strapped to the vehicle anyways...which is half true, but if you ever try fitting 7 months of kit into a Med. ALICE plus your sleeping bag, you're hating life). We also get issued the old ALICE LBV which is crap.   We're probably the last unit in the Marine Corps not to have switched over to the MOLLE system.

Since our LBVs and rucks are crap, the policy on non-issue kit is pretty liberal in the unit.   In recruit training and during your School of Infantry, etc. you're required to wear the issued gear (crawl, walk, run), however after that, most units allow alot of individual discretion.   Have a look at pictures of Marines in Iraq and I challenge you to find a single Marine whose gear layout is the same as the Marine next to him.   In our unit the SOP is that each Marine carries the minimum required amount of ammo, water and have their first aid kit in an identifiable location with the prescribed contents.   As long as your gear is OD, Coyote Brown, Woodland, or Desert Camo it's good to go.  

As hypocritical as it sounds (with my non-issued Kifaru EMR and TT MAV with assorted pouches), I'd personally like to see a bit more standardization within the unit in regard to LBVs, but since the issued stuff is the garbage ALICE LBV that's incompatible with the interceptor body armor (shoulder straps are too wide) it's hard to force everybody to go out and buy decent stuff that's all the same.   We're almost on the other end of the spectrum, where the troops are encouraged to the point of feeling forced to go out and buy gear, as was done when we got deployed to Iraq and possession of Camelbaks was made mandatory, even though they weren't issued and troops had to go out and purchase them with their own funds.

As far as leadership in relation to using issued or non-issued gear...I've never found it to be an issue.   The saltier Marines will often point the new guys in the right direction in terms of kit that works and doesn't work.   It's never been an us vs. them scenario where certain ranks can get away with wearing stuff that the Jr. ranks are forbade from wearing.   I'm in the position of platoon gear queer and show the newbies how much money they can spend in a single online transaction at Lightfighter, Optactical or Tactical Tailor in order to get decent kit that works for them and will meet mission requirements.    ;D

In regard to the professional appearance issue of wearing non-issued gear, I think that the only people who really notice whether somebody is wearing an issued CTS cadpat lbv is the project manager of the CTS LBV program who might be reading the issue of the Maple Leaf that you were pictured in, or a glimpsing shot on The National.   Professionalism lies more with conduct than with whether you're wearing a drop-leg holster that you bought on your own dime.

IPC10:
As far as the field replacement argument goes, how is showing your supply guy a blown out non-issue LBV and temp-loaning an issued one that's in stock different from trading in one that's been destroyed, or what about a soldier who loses his LBV?   Do you only exchange or reissue kit to someone who's got something to trade in?   When I was in Norway a few weeks ago, our LAV got rear ended by another LAV.   One of the Marines in our LAV had his ruck (non-issue Lowe Vector pack) strapped to the exterior of the vehicle as per SOP.   During the collision his ruck was literally torn in half, completely destroyed beyond repair even with a Red Green Handyman's corner amount of duct tape.   He simply temp-loaned one an issued from the MAGTF supply when he got the chance and submitte a loss report along with the vehicle accident report for reimbursement of the value of his ruck.   He was lucky that they even had spares, as when we were in Iraq, if your gear went for a crap, you had to make due for quite awhile as we didn't have any spare stuff for quite some time.   It was actually faster to have commercially available replacement gear sent to you through the military mail system than it was to wait on supply to get it through the channels.   During our 7 month deployment we only got 1 pair of desert boots issued to us in theatre to replace the one pair we were sent over with.

I can't imagine the drain on logistics if every piece of personal kit that was damaged had to be transported out of theatre back to Canada or the US for disposal once it was exchanged for serviceable gear.   Simply, as gear becomes unserviceable, a report should be included with that gear as to what the specific failure is that makes the gear unserviceable and it is put on file (just have it entered into a simple database) and if a repitition of specific problems occur, those reports would be gathered and put into an UCR.   The unserviceable gear should be repaired by a mat tech./rigger or cannibalized for materials (buckles, webbing, patches of cordura, etc.) and destroyed/disposed of in theatre.

About the only downside to using non-issued gear is the event that it is destroyed and you cannot get the government to reimburse you for it.   I've often though about how much its going to suck when my $500US Kifaru EMR & accessories gets a lethal dose of shrapnel from an IED and I'm stuck using the crap medium ALICE bag sans/frame (we don't get issued frames in our unit...go figure) that I have to temp loan from supply.    :'(   However that's my decision to make.   Hopefully Kifaru will honor its lifetime warranty and if nothing else humor my war story with a replacement ruck.    ;D

Where does the answer lie?   I think that the Brits have got a pretty good handle on the use of non-issued kit and still maintaining uniformity and professionalism.   They've been conducting ops around the world in both combat and peacekeeping situations using a variety of issued and non-issued kit.   Their performance has been often admired and emulated in the CFs and yet the subject of them having such a liberal policy on non-issued gear and how it affects their professionalism (if at all) is rarely discussed.  

I think that the first step would be to expand the availability of Cadpat licenses to some reputable gear manufacturers such as Kifaru, SO Tech and Tactical Tailor, etc. and then develop a list of approved aftermarket manufacturers.   The real emphasis should be put on the sub-unit (company/squadron, etc.) setting the standard for what the soldiers load-out will be and going from there and using some common sense.   As long as the gear is OD/Cadpat/Coyote (whatever matches the environment within reason) and it is from a list of approved vendors, and the soldiers load-out meets established requirements it should be authorized for use in the field.  

I hate to say it, but alot of these issues of using or not using non-issued kit boils down to the fact that the CFs have not had to engage in a major shooting conflict since Korea to highlight the deficiencies in issued equipment, and I am well aware of 3VP in Afghanistan and ops in Bosnia/Medak pocket, etc. but these just further point out how the mindset has moved away from combat to...well whatever (?) in regard to providing equipment and support to the pointy end.
 
Hmm, just to add to this post regarding CF members and non issued kit. On and Ex Cougar Salvo held in Kamloops   BC last month, I remember seeing a WO dressed in a variety of Kit. At first I thought he was OPFOR (Opposing force) however I learned that he was the CSM of one of the TF Coy's. He had a MARPAT HAT, an unknown OD LBV, German Flectarn Gators, and what looked like civi pattern hiking boots. The only issued clothing i could see was his CADPAT shirt and pants. The troops within the company were not as "radically dressed". They did have a mixed bag of issued and non issued kit. Despite the varying boots styles, shemagh scarves, non issued pistol holsters, non- issued knee pads, non issued stealth suits (under combat shirt) and non issued Camelbaks and back packs, they all to me look unmistakably Canadian. Now I was not in the TF Coy therefore if there was someone who was there that wants correct me or add anything please feel free.

The point is, aside form the CSM, all the troops were able to "add" kit and still look Canadian.

(edit-Spelling)
 
In a vain attempt to establish more succinctly where I stand on the non-issue kit let me relate the following:

In the fall of 1998 the Comd of 1 CMBG (Col Leslie at the time) stated to the assembled Bn that he didn't care what we wore in the field as long as it worked and we looked Canadian.  The first ex was a bit of a gong show but by Light Heavy things had reached a good equilibrium.  This was also illustrated beautifully to me when during the field portion of a basic recce course in Fort Lewis the 16 odd candidates on the course crowded into the chow hall and we realized that no two people were wearing the same type of boots.

As long as the chain establishes a left and right of arc, like the old hair regulations â Å“may not present a bizarre or exaggerated appearance.â ?  Once those arcs are established then all all follow, or lead by example.  If the RSM says no blue gloves, then no blue gloves.


 
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