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Killing Canadians 'best way': student

This may explain the problems we are facing:


Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act. 


The threshold of hate

(Link in Title)


Joseph Brean,  National Post 

The decision not to prosecute Salman Hossain for the wilful promotion of hatred against an identifiable group illustrates some of the pitfalls of a controversial anti-hate law that has often put legal opinion in conflict with political judgment, and has become doubly awkward in the age of the Internet.

Section 319(2) of the Criminal Code is one of the few ways a Canadian can be sentenced to jail, up to two years, directly over the spoken or written word.

It is among the few criminal laws that require direct ministerial approval for prosecutions, along with others such as abuse of public office, assisting a military deserter and any alleged crime on the Space Station.

To date, Ontario has not yet pursued an Internetbased case. Convictions have been won against website operators in other provinces, though, despite unique problems that arise on the Internet, where anonymity is the norm, audiences are unclear, websites can be hacked, passwords can be shared and many messages appear for only a moment before vanishing forever down a rabbit hole.

"It's normally discussed in legal circles as an enforcement challenge," said Bruce Ryder, Assistant Dean First Year at Osgoode Hall law school.

Drafted in the 1960s at the height of the post-war human rights movement, Prof. Ryder said Section 319(2) has generally fared well since hate propaganda moved from printed flyers and telephone hotlines to Internet chat rooms.

The main current problem is not the law's constitutionality, he said, nor a shortage of cases that deserve it, but whether it can actually be effective against the proliferation of online hate propaganda, much of it anonymous or international.

The 319(2) conviction rate remains low, at 11 convictions out of 44 prosecutions since 1994, despite a reluctance by attorneys-general to approve anything but the most extreme cases.

The recent failed retrial of native leader David Ahenakew, for example, was an acute embarrassment for the Saskatchewan Crown, but like past failures, it helped clarify the law's boundaries.

Mr. Ahenakew's first trial turned on the "private conversation" exemption, which was judged not to apply to the statements he made to a reporter.

The retrial turned on the concept of "wilful," which has always been an unusual requirement, given that all crimes must involve some kind of "guilty mind."

This notion was first wrangled over in the first 319(2) case in 1979, the failed prosecution of Robert Buzzanga and Jean Wilfred Durocher, two French Canadians who distributed anti-French flyers in an effort to rouse anti-English sentiment in Ontario. They were acquitted on appeal in a ruling that held "wilful" to mean something close to "intentional," in contrast to other forms of guilty knowledge such as negligence or recklessness.

Mr. Ahenakew was ultimately judged to have fallen below this high standard.

"There's no doubt that mistakes have been made [in 319(2) cases]," Prof. Ryder said.

The result is a law that is used sparingly and cautiously, and generally against only determined purveyors of the most extreme forms of hatred.

"The Criminal Code isn't supposed to prohibit racism. It's supposed to prohibit extreme forms of hate propaganda that raise a serious threat of harm," Prof. Ryder said.

Along with "private conversation," the law also provides defenses of truth, public interest, identifying hatred for the purpose of eradication and religious arguments made in good faith.

Trying to identify worthy cases amid the unedited global chatter of the Internet, while respecting private communications and free expression, has become a central conundrum of 319(2).

And it is often easier for a police officer or Crown prosecutor than for an attorney-general, who must put his or her elected neck on the line.

Set the bar too high, and the law is toothless against the very people it was written to target.

Set it too low, and you catch a thousand loudmouths who may be racists, but are not criminals.

A source with first-hand knowledge of how provincial attorneys-general make this decision said the threshold changes with the political climate, and that there are "many more questions put to the AG than there are positive answers."

It is not a scientific process, he said, but rather a subjective decision about whether each individual case is worth pursuing.

While a prosecutor will simply look for a reasonable prospect of conviction based on available evidence (they also seem to be reluctant; one police hate crime specialist reports forwarding six potential cases to the Crown over two years, and having all rejected), an elected attorney-general must take a wider view.

Approved cases must "go beyond simply some foolish hothead spouting off," the source said, or else the law can be overused and cheapened. A good indicator of a solid case, for example, would be an imbalance of power between speaker and audience, or a context in which people were likely to be strongly influenced, which is why the successful prosecution of the anti-Semitic Alberta teacher James Keegstra is such an iconic precedent.

"The full answer is not in the words of the statute," the source said, and "everything becomes a little harder" on the Internet.

An added complication is that the Youth Criminal Justice Act has no hate speech provision, so it is unclear how an accused youth would be

The Criminal Code isn't supposed to prohibit racism treated under this law.

At the moment, the political climate is awkward for hate speech prosecutions.

A prolonged and acrimonious debate over the role of human rights commissions in these matters has led to high-profile demands for legislative change, and hate speech reviews at various agencies, including the Canadian Human Rights Commission, the Justice Department and parliamentary committees.

The Justice Department is also evaluating a controversial proposal to explicitly write hate motivation into the Criminal Code as an aggravating factor in any crime, from common mischief to murder.

In such a divisive climate, the criminal prosecution of a young blogger would have drawn awkward attention, and as much criticism as praise.

In the past, this has often worked to the advantage of the accused, notably the Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel, who was investigated under 319(2), but prosecuted under the law against reporting "false news," which was ruled unconstitutional.

"There's no doubt that a downside of criminal prosecution is it gives all kinds of free publicity to the views of the person accused of hatemongering," Prof. Ryder said.

"Perhaps its most important roles are symbolic and preventative, to express our condemnation of hate propaganda against the groups that have most frequently been the targets of hateful speech," he said.

jbrean@nationalpost.com---------

HIGH-PROFILE CASES

Cases alleging hate promotion in Canada have taken a sharp turn away from racist hotlines and photocopied flyers toward the unbounded reach of the Internet. The following are some of the most prominent cases involving the anti-hate law since the Supreme Court of Canada upheld its constitutionality in 1990.

JAMES KEEGSTRA

A high school teacher and mayor from Eckville, Alta., he was driven from office before his conviction for promoting Holocaust denial and Jewish conspiracy theories to his students. The Alberta Court of Appeal overturned his conviction because the defence of truth placed too high a burden on the accused, but it was upheld by the Supreme Court, in a 1990 analysis that remains the legal benchmark.

GLENN BAHR

A founder of the Western Canada For Us website, he was committed for trial in 2006 over alleged white supremacist material. He has pleaded not guilty.

DON ANDREWS

The leader of the defunct Nationalist Party of Canada and a long-time racist rabble rouser in Toronto, he was found guilty of hate promotion and sentenced to one year in jail, a sentence that the Supreme Court of Canada upheld in 1990, in a companion appeal with Keegstra.

TERRY TREMAINE

A former University of Saskatchewan lecturer who went by the online nickname mathdoktor99, he once claimed his alleged hate promotion was due to mental illness, but instead briefly tried to defend himself. He has pleaded not guilty and is now represented by Doug Christie, a lawyer who has argued for many 319(2) accused, including Keegstra.

REINHARD GUSTAV MUELLER

Also known as Reni Sentana-Ries, he was sentenced in 2006 in Alberta to 16 months in jail for his anti-Semitic website Federation of Free Planets. At sentencing he made what a reporter described as "a long statement detailing the radio messages his wife receives from extraterrestrials and the government conspiracies to silence him and his wife that even reached the Crown's office."

KEITH FRANCIS WILLIAM NOBLE

A prominent neo-Nazi agitator, he was sentenced in February 2008 in Prince George, B. C., to four months in jail and three years' probation, and had all his computer equipment forfeited to the Crown for destruction.


 
Just another spineless dodge by the McGuinty government. Won't deal with the aboriginal problem, or the tamils or this guy. Bet if a white guy said something like this, the Ontario AG would be parading him through the streets of Moronto in an ox cart. Getting as bad as Britian here.
 
recceguy said:
Just another spineless dodge by the McGuinty government. Won't deal with the aboriginal problem, or the tamils or this guy. Bet if a white guy said something like this, the Ontario AG would be parading him through the streets of Moronto in an ox cart. Getting as bad as Britian here.

Oh come on now!! You know only white folk can be racist!! ;D
 
Times have changed. In 1981 Metro Police made the largest mass arrest in Canada since the 1970 October crisis. Now we host one of the world's largest gay parades.  Strike or no strike. However, Canada Day is a no go in Canada's largest city this year.
 
mariomike said:
Times have changed. In 1981 Metro Police made the largest mass arrest in Canada since the 1970 October crisis. Now we host one of the world's largest gay parades.  Strike or no strike. However, Canada Day is a no go in Canada's largest city this year.

- What do you mean "Canada Day is a No-Go"?
 
A good chance to bring back Dominion Day.
 
TCBF said:
- What do you mean "Canada Day is a No-Go"?

City workers are on strike - so no one to set up, work at, or tear down city-run events.  Lots of lost overtime there...
 
TCBF said:
- What do you mean "Canada Day is a No-Go"?

According to the Toronto Sun:
http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/joe_warmington/2009/06/30/9977951-sun.html
 
OldSoldier said:
There's a better way to take care of this person.

Yes, you know it and so do I  ;D Through peace, love and harmony and all things PC.

Cheers,

Wes

EDIT again...

CLARIFICATION


Please note that the above remark was intended to go out to our ever silly 'PC world' at large (al la UN, global warming, etc) world, meant in a humourous 'tounge in cheek'  (please note the smiley face) sense, and was not directed in a manner to humiliate, insult, degrade or attack anyone poster personally or otherwise who are members, guests or moderators on this fine site.

For those that saw it in another way, I am sorry.
 
I know it's a necrothread, but there's actually some new follow up on this asshat.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2654831
York University suspends student running anti-Semitic website



TORONTO -- A Toronto man has been suspended from York University after the National Post reported he was under police investigation over his controversial Internet postings.

Salman Hossain has been ordered to appear before a disciplinary panel and, in the meantime, he is not permitted to attend classes at the north Toronto university campus.

The Ontario Provincial Police said last week its hate crimes and extremism unit was investigating online writings by Mr. Hossain that make derogatory comments about Jews and call for a genocide against them.

"The university is moving on this issue in a serious fashion and we're going to let our due process work through and see what happens beyond that," university spokesman Keith Marnoch said on Monday.

Canadian Jewish Congress CEO Bernie Farber said the Jewish community was "now breathing a sigh of relief" knowing that Mr. Hossain was suspended. "York has done the right thing."

The Bangladeshi-Canadian, who claims to know the ringleader of the Toronto 18 bomb plot, has been familiar to police since he posted messages online three years ago supporting terrorist attacks in Canada.

At the time, the OPP brought a hate crimes case against him over his comments about Jews but Attorney-General Chris Bentley decided not to press charges because he said Mr. Hossain was undergoing rehabilitation to correct his offensive behavior.

But Mr. Hossain has recently resumed his online campaign on a conspiracy-theory website called Filthy Jewish Terrorists. On it, he blames Jews for terrorist attacks that were actually carried out by Islamist extremists, refers to Jews, Christians and non-extremist Muslims using offensive terms and says that "a genocide should be perpetrated against the Jewish populations of North America and Europe."

After the Post reported on the police investigation, Mr. Hossain was unapologetic and defended his support for a genocide against Jews, writing, "Yes, I can call for the slaughter of an entire people."

Canada's hate crimes law prohibits supporting or promoting genocide, as well as the communication of statements (other than in private conversation) that willfully promote hatred against an identifiable group.

"We are going to move forward with a tribunal on this," Mr. Marnoch said, adding that while such a hearing must take place within 60 days, it would not take that long in this case.

"It'll be done well within that time frame," he said. "We want all of our students, all of our community members, to be safe and knowing that they can be."

National Post



Read more: http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2654831#ixzz0iFtZZPDx
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Have to agree with Vern...
ArmyVern said:

When will someone clamp down on such folks?

- edited to clarify -
 
It's people like this that make me sick. I have friends who are of different color then myself that go to York U, and they would never support such things even though they might not agree with the war in Iraq or Afghanistan. I don't get why nothing is done yet.. York U is doing the right thing.. when will Canada? I could guarantee if he wrote this in the States.. he would already be locked up for a long time.
 
HavocSteve said:
It's people like this that make me sick. I have friends who are of different color then myself that go to York U, and they would never support such things even though they might not agree with the war in Iraq or Afghanistan. I don't get why nothing is done yet.. York U is doing the right thing.. when will Canada? I could guarantee if he wrote this in the States.. he would already be locked up for a long time.

We are still suffering the hangover of "political correctness". Give the pendelum a few years.
 
Mid Aged Silverback said:
We are still suffering the hangover of "political correctness". Give the pendelum a few years.

Just my opinion, and I could be wrong.
But, I think it's more like the D.T.'s. than a hangover.
 
I think Canada needs to re-think the whole multi-cultural rainbow theory. People need to be integrated into society in a meaningful way as soon as they become citizens so this kind of BS doesn't happen. If this means that immigrants have to give up some of their native culture and heritage to share in a common Canadian one, that's just what's going to have to happen.

Or else Canada is going to face the kind of social unrest and increasing xenophobia that is facing Europe.
 
UoTJustin said:
I think Canada needs to re-think the whole multi-cultural rainbow theory. People need to be integrated into society in a meaningful way as soon as they become citizens so this kind of BS doesn't happen. If this means that immigrants have to give up some of their native culture and heritage to share in a common Canadian one, that's just what's going to have to happen.

Or else Canada is going to face the kind of social unrest and increasing xenophobia that is facing Europe.


I think your point is valid but, it seems to me, the cure is not so much in forcing immigrants to surrender entrenched cultural values as it is in offering them applicable, attractive common Canadian values.

There will, inevitably, be a few conflicts between the old and new values and we are seeing that right now in full face covering for Muslims. It (face covering, burkas, etc) is NOT a Muslim requirement; it is part of the old, old Arab/Persian cultural baggage that makes women into property and conflicts, harshly, with our cultural value of equality.

We, the established Canadians, of whatever skin tone or religion, need to 'win' the small clashes of civilizations when they occur in order to guarantee a secular, tolerant, democratic society in which fundamental rights (life, liberty, property, equality) are guaranteed for all.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
offering them applicable, attractive common Canadian values.

Has anyone figured out what these would be? i.e. "top ten things all Canadians should value" type of thing?
 
It is s**** like this that give immigrants a bad name  :mad: Seriously, for a country that has given you so much why the hell can't you show some respect?
The Wahhabis and mullahs he supports would consider this idiot cannon fodder at best. 
 
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