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Hate America, Regardless...

Japan and the EU have complained to the World trade orginization, but the U.S. wont budge.

Better check your facts - the steel tariffs were lifted over 3 weeks ago. I work in the steel industry. The tariffs helped out the mills in the US, but they were absolutely killing all of the industries downstream (like mine).

WHAT???  :eek:  A US trade practice was having negative impacts on US Companies???? I thought they only hurt Canadian industry....
 
Ya the Yanks take alot of crap and abuse, but at the end of the day, when there is a big disaster (like on Boxing Day), guess who's crying for Uncle sam to foot the bill and pay for it. The Yanks have forked out 35 million for starters, plus supplying troops and eqpt to assist, and they still get critisised.

Glad to see the French chipped in $140,000  ::). Now thats just outragous, but I reckon every dollar helps.

If it wasn't for our American friends, who did a lot in WW2 on two fronts to save our skin (and they did), the war would have had a different outcome. Sure we maybe would have won in the long run, but the casualties would have been much much higher on our side, and look at Japan. How many innocent civilians would have been killed if the invasion had to take place (some say over 1 million). Thank goodness for the USA, fatman and Littleboy.

Ya, and the cold war too, who knows if it wasn't for the US presence in Europe, the Russians may have expanded their empire right into western Europe.

Frankly I have had just about enough from the misinformed 'snotty nosed snivel libertarian looser left' and their continious Yank bashing.


Regards,

Wes

 
Here is something to get the America bashers into a real frenzy:

America is entering a growth cycle due to the Bush Administration tax cuts, resulting in an annual growth of American GDP at a rate of @ 5% compounded annually. Bush will make these cuts permanent during the second term, and a putative President Condeleeza Rice will probably keep them in place in 2008 and 2012. All you need to do is look up a compound interest table to see that $100 invested now will be 179.59 at the end of President Rice's second term (simple compound interest), and the cumulative growth will be astronomical since this new wealth will also be invested and compounded.

America will therefor have the resources to remain the worlds military hegemon, most generous benefactor, most innovative cultural and entertainment centre, etc. etc. for my and my children's lifetimes (my son is 3) to all our great good fortunes.

Even China teaming up with Russia and France to escape a potential "containment" policy by future administrations fails to understand they are operating in a 20th century paradigm, American "containment" in the 21rst century will be even more all encompassing because it will be based on totally different principles.

The changes in American culture and demographics make this state of affairs the most likely outcome, and the liberal elites and others who decry Americas wealth, power. moral sense and position of global dominance had better get used to that great old Army saying: "Suck it up".
 
About Anti-Americanism, being against George W. Bush, isn't anti-Americanism. It's anti-Bush. Hence, Micheal Moore{ A definite left-winger if their ever was one} isn't anti-American. A majority of Canadians at the moment are not Bush fans, but that doesn't make them anti-American. It makes them anti-Bush.

Being against the Republican, or Democratic Party doesn't make a person anti-American. It makes them anti-Republican, or anti-Democrats.

Being against the business practices of multinational corporations in third world countries doesn't make a person anti-American. It makes them, anti-globalization, anti-sweatshops, anti-Nike, anti-Nabob Coffee, take your pick, it isn't really important.

What I am trying to get at it that we have all of these points of view, all these disagreements, that get lumped into being anti-American because some other groups just want to throw in the trump card that is American nationalism. It is simplistic.

As for those countries who actually Hate {capital-h, hate} Americans, some of it is America's fault, but most of it is those countries' fault, and American happens to be the fall guy.

Another point I want to make about anti-Americanism, is when you're the only super power in the world, you have more and bigger opportunities to be a hypocrite, which people don't respond to well.

Just out of curiosity, how many people think Hate America, Regardless... should be the title for a comedy piece?
 
oyaguy said:
About Anti-Americanism, being against George W. Bush, isn't anti-Americanism. It's anti-Bush. Hence, Micheal Moore{ A definite left-winger if their ever was one} isn't anti-American. A majority of Canadians at the moment are not Bush fans, but that doesn't make them anti-American. It makes them anti-Bush.

Being against the Republican, or Democratic Party doesn't make a person anti-American. It makes them anti-Republican, or anti-Democrats.

Being against the business practices of multinational corporations in third world countries doesn't make a person anti-American. It makes them, anti-globalization, anti-sweatshops, anti-Nike, anti-Nabob Coffee, take your pick, it isn't really important.

What I am trying to get at it that we have all of these points of view, all these disagreements, that get lumped into being anti-American because some other groups just want to throw in the trump card that is American nationalism. It is simplistic.

As for those countries who actually Hate {capital-h, hate} Americans, some of it is America's fault, but most of it is those countries' fault, and American happens to be the fall guy.

Another point I want to make about anti-Americanism, is when you're the only super power in the world, you have more and bigger opportunities to be a hypocrite, which people don't respond to well.

Just out of curiosity, how many people think Hate America, Regardless... should be the title for a comedy piece?

Although I agree with you, I don't think most anti-American sentiment comes from such well-reasoned thought.   I think it generally comes from the most ignorant in society who either don't read at all, or read propaganda-based media with an agenda to undermine the USA at every opportunity.   Where were all the peace activists when the Russians literally tried to steal Ukranian democracy?   How about mass demonstrations against France's invasion of the Ivory Coast?   I have read more than one article that associates the Moveon.org group (which organizes all these demonstrations) with communist parties from around the world and suggested links between it and major national powers who would like undermine the USA and its world influence.   In essence, a communist-funded Degaullist propaganda tool targeting idealistic but uninformed youth. 

Bottom Line:   A bunch of dumb people are having their agenda set by foreign powers and taking their eye off the bigger picture which is "What would the world look like if the USA didn't carry a big stick, and had demonstrated a willingness to use it?"




Matthew.    ;)
 
The French have U.N. support in the Ivory coast.

The U.S. dosnt have U.N. support in Iraq.

As the yanks say "whole different ball park"
 
oyaguy said:
About Anti-Americanism, being against George W. Bush, isn't anti-Americanism. It's anti-Bush. Hence, Micheal Moore{ A definite left-winger if their ever was one} isn't anti-American. A majority of Canadians at the moment are not Bush fans, but that doesn't make them anti-American. It makes them anti-Bush.

Being against the Republican, or Democratic Party doesn't make a person anti-American. It makes them anti-Republican, or anti-Democrats.

Being against the business practices of multinational corporations in third world countries doesn't make a person anti-American. It makes them, anti-globalization, anti-sweatshops, anti-Nike, anti-Nabob Coffee, take your pick, it isn't really important.

What I am trying to get at it that we have all of these points of view, all these disagreements, that get lumped into being anti-American because some other groups just want to throw in the trump card that is American nationalism. It is simplistic.

As for those countries who actually Hate {capital-h, hate} Americans, some of it is America's fault, but most of it is those countries' fault, and American happens to be the fall guy.

Another point I want to make about anti-Americanism, is when you're the only super power in the world, you have more and bigger opportunities to be a hypocrite, which people don't respond to well.

Just out of curiosity, how many people think Hate America, Regardless... should be the title for a comedy piece?

    Being against any one or two American actions or policies isn't anti-american.  It becomes anti-americanism when you automaticaly disregaurd a policy or idea just because it's associated with the US, which a LOT of people do.  I have an uncle who still beleives that Serbia was bombed so the US could build a pipeline through Kosovo, and that the US faked the moon landing, and he has dozens of "facts" to back it up.  He's a very intelligent man, but as soon as the word "America" comes up, he goes into conspiracy-theory mode.  I also had a liberal friend watch the series "Band of Brothers" recently, and his reaction was "it would have been a good movie if it wasn't so pro-american".  Now if that type of behaviour can't be calssified as anti-americanism, what can?
 
Canuck_25 said:
he U.S. dosnt have U.N. support in Iraq.

Do you really hold the UN in such high respect?

I certainly don't.

Corrupt, bureaucratic, inbread, and toothless. Sorry thats what I think of the organisation. Its not what it ussed to be.
 
S_Baker said:
I also had a liberal friend watch the series "Band of Brothers" recently, and his reaction was "it would have been a good movie if it wasn't so pro-american".

I wonder if the people of Belgium are pro-American? ;)

That series was hardly pro-american... if by that he meant pro-american ideals or something. It was a true story, they were real people, you cant blame them for loving america if theyre american.
Wesley H. Allen said:
Do you really hold the UN in such high respect?

I certainly don't.

Corrupt, buracratic, inbread, and toothless. Sorry thats what I think of the organisation. Its not what it ussed to be.

The US didnt need UN support in Iraq, seeing as how the US is a large portion of the UN security counsels military power.A little help from some third party countries would have been nice but the overall result wouldnt have been much different I don't imagine.Most countries with the ability to help out militarily , did so.You can hardly say its an american endeavor, theres something like 100 different countries represented in afghanistan alone, I dont know how many are in Iraq.

It is true the UN isnt what it used to be.I dunno about inbred and toothless but theyre certainly corrupt and beauracratic.The UN doesnt seem to have a major voice in world affairs anymore, and Iraq is a prime example.Kofi Annan called the war illegal, and the UN was against it from the beginning.If they arent going to do anything about it, who cares what a bunch of old guys think about something, cause thats all that they are without acting upon anything.Empty threats.

Although, when the US inevitably pulls out, or begins its pullout process, I think its a likely scenario that the UN sends a peace corps to try and keep things under control and help train police etc.Im surprised they havnt sent anyone to oversee, or more specifically, help set up and secure election sites? Doesnt the UN stand for democracy and fairness ;)
I dont think they have anyway, correct me if im wrong. :salute: :cdn:

 
S_Baker said:
CANUCK 25.....what exactly does this mean?
Well, let me see, when the Ivorians attacked french troops with aircraft, the French responded by destroying Ivory's airforce. The U.N. publically supported France's move.
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3993265.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4017995.stm
 
S_Baker said:
I make no bones about it, the French have always been America's enemy, contrary to popular myth.   So when I see the French doing what they accuse other countries, my teeth make a little grinding sound and it makes me want to   :-X

Public support, I laugh at you sir   ;)

Anyway, read about John Paul Jones and his supposed French Allies......I would love to hear your take on things.

  Why hate France? They were fighting in indo-china with America's support.

  The French helped occupy Germany and Austria during the cold war.

  The French are in afganistan right now, assisting with american lead war on terror and they have more troops in the country than canada.
 
Canuck_25 said:
The French are in afganistan right now, assisting with american lead war on terror and they have more troops in the country than canada.

Let's see your numbers and source please.
 
They have 1500 troops there last I heard, which includes special forces in the south helping the Americans.

 
"I heard" isn't good enough. I want to see a credible source with numbers.
 
http://www.info-france-usa.org/news/statmnts/2004/defense_budget070804.asp

Today, France is still largely involved in Afghanistan. Now, 540 French troops are deployed in Afghanistan as part of the International Security Assistance Force, whose duty is to maintain security at the Kabul airport and its surroundings. And France is also playing a significant role in training the new Afghan army, alongside the US and the United Kingdom, having organized three battalions of 500 men and being presently involved in the training of all Afghan officers.

With the Navy contribution to OEF, a total of 1,470 French troops are involved in the stabilization of Afghanistan. They will amount to 1,820 with the arrival of Eurocorps in Kabul during the summer.

    Since Canada only has 1,004 personnel in afghanistan, he's correct.  Surprised the heck outta me.  On the other hand they have 4,300 in the Ivory Coast.  Shows clearly where their priorities lie.  And there's also the fact that their total number of deployed personnel worldwide is roughly 34,000, whereas ours is sitting at a rather pathetic 1,352.
 
That's what I wanted. I'm also reading it as 540 "in Afghanistan". The 500 are local soldiers trained by them and the navy doesn't count, as the statement "in Afghanistan" was made. Summer is also not here yet.
 
Into the Tar Pits
Dinosaurs either evolve or die.

There was a time when the political lines about foreign policy were well drawn. Those on the Left felt that American democracy and global capitalism did not necessarily offer the rest of the world a much better alternative than either Soviet-sponsored Communism or third-world thuggery. Instead, in this view, American realism favored order, but not spreading liberty or social justice abroad â ” and only managed to promote overseas more of the unfairness and racism that we supposedly suffered from at home.

Everything from Vietnam to Nicaragua was seen through this reductionist prism, assuming a haughty United States at odds with indigenous reformers the world over. But with the fall of the Berlin Wall, the rise of the capitalist juggernauts China and India, the globalization of the world economy, radical social and economic changes here at home, and the spread of Islamic fascism, none of those old views makes sense anymore.

President Bush was criticized by many Democrats on both practical and political grounds for ostracizing Yasser Arafat, the past beneficiary of a rigged vote. Yet most are silent now about the news that local elections are now taking place for the first time in nearly a decade. Why voting all of a sudden now? Was the president right in seeing the removal of this so-called national liberationist as a key to democratic change on the West Bank?

The old critique of American policy in the Middle East was driven by charges of petro-imperialism â ” that we would do any and all things to secure fuel for our gas-guzzlers. But China now satisfies most of its skyrocketing oil appetite from Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Oman. Unlike the United States, there is no internal Chinese opposition to question the new superpower's oil politics, which are heating up global energy markets. The so-called Peoples Republic cares only about price and availability. It worries not at all about its petro-trade's subsidizing Wahhabism, theocracy, or Islamic extremism.

We may still rant about the American rejection of Kyoto. But is anyone alarmed over the hundreds of coal plants sprouting up in India and China to ensure billions of people that there will be enough energy for a possible future lifestyle of the type we now take for granted in Santa Barbara and Nantucket? In short, we will soon enter an age in which China may well change the world's environment, affect the price of oil, and govern the world's trade as much as the United States â ” and will care almost nothing about what Western liberals say, secure either that its fraying socialist veneer or sheer size and power will earn it a pass from the censure of Western intellectuals.

If we thought indigenous liberationist movements of the Islamic world â ” who have beheaded and killed to be free of Western religious tolerance, equity for women and homosexuals, and voting and human rights â ” put an enormous strain on the ossified Left, wait until Mao's old socialist utopia begins to send ultimatums to the democracies of the Philippines, Japan, Taiwan, and South Korea. What will Earth First do when this socialist behemoth sprouts its oil rigs in the Arctic tundra and pristine seas?

The international media is not up in arms about the murder of filmmaker Theo Van Gough or the video execution of democratic activists in the streets of Baghdad â ” at least not as they once had been over the televised shooting of a Vietcong captain by South Vietnamese general Nguyen Ngoc Loan. Of course, the democracy activists in Iraq were working only for freedom, not, like Loan, for socialist tyranny. The only political consistency for the media's reaction or lack thereof seems to be the particular affinity of the shooters and victims for the United States: Pulitzer Prizes when a Communist is shot by an American surrogate; snores when the murdered Iraqi idealists shared an American vision of elections.

Consider further: The United States runs staggering trade deficits with most of the world. Its dollar is at an all-time low. Its postwar international protocols â ” from the World Trade Organization to the United Nations â ” either favor the non-West or look unkindly toward the United States. The American military, at great risk and cost, alone in the world saved Kosovars, Afghans, and Iraqis from tyranny. For all the Vietnam-era rhetoric about American meddling, the elected Karzai and the provisional Allawi are a far cry from the Shah, Pinochet, or Somoza. We are doing things in the Middle East that make no sense in terms of traditional economic or political advantage â ” and yet still bring out 1960s-era stegosauruses alleging imperialism and hegemony.

What has happened? Sometime around the 1980s, the Right saw the demise of the Soviet Union as an opportunity to evolve beyond realpolitik to promote not just anti-Communism but grassroots democracy, coupled with free-market globalism from Eastern Europe to Latin America and Asia. In contrast, the hard Left stayed in its knee-jerk suspicion of the West and continued to give a pass to authoritarians from Cuba to Iran who professed socialism, thinking that the world was a static zero-sum game in which somebody's gain spelled another's loss â ” oblivious that real wealth could be created by a change of mentality and technology and not mere exploitation.

As the old politics lie in ruin from hypocrisy and incoherence, the Left needs to get a new life. Here are a few more suggestions:

Remember that multilateral inaction â ” whether in the Balkans, Rwanda, or Darfur â ” is often calculated, selfish, and far more lethal to millions than risky interventions like removing the Taliban and Saddam.

Quit idolizing Europe. It was a far larger arms merchant to Saddam than was the United States; it supplied most of Dr. Khan's nuclear laboratory; it financed much of the Oil-for-Food scandal; and it helped to create and tolerate the Balkans genocide. It has never freed any country or intervened to remove fascism and leave behind democracy â ” silly American notions that are to be caricatured except when it is a matter of saving Europeans.

Stop seeing an all-powerful United States behind every global problem. China is on the move and far more likely to disrupt environmental protocols, cheat on trade accords, and bully neighbors. The newly expanded Europe has a larger population and aggregate economy, stronger currency, and far less in trade and budget debts than does the United States â ” and is already using that economic clout for its own interests, not global freedom from dictators and autocrats.

Don't believe much of what the U.N. says anymore. Its secretary general is guilty of either malfeasance or incompetence, its soldiers are often hired thugs who terrorize those they are supposed to protect, and its resolutions are likely to be anti-democratic and anti-Semitic. Its members include dozens of nations whose odious representatives we would not let walk inside the doors of the U.S. Congress. The old idea of a United Nations was inspiring, the current reality chilling.

Stop seeing socialists and anti-Americans as Democrats. When a Michael Moore compares beheaders to our own Minutemen and laments that too many Democrats were in the World Trade Center, he deserves no platform alongside Wesley Clark or a seat next to Jimmy Carter or praise for his pseudo-dramas from high Democrats. Firebrands like Al Sharpton and Michael Moore are the current leftist equivalents of 1950s right-wing extremists like the John Birchers. They should suffer the same fate of ostracism, not bemused and tacit approval.

Ignore most grim international reports that show the United States as stingy, greedy, or uncaring based on some esoteric formula that makes a Sweden or Denmark out as the world's savior. Such "studies" always ignore aggregate dollars and look at per capita public giving, and yet somehow ignore things like over $100 billion to Afghanistan and Iraq or $15 billion pledged to fight AIDS in Africa. These academic white papers likewise forget private donations, because most of the American billionaires who give to global causes of various sorts do so as either individuals or through foundations. No mention is made of the hundred of millions that are handled by American Christian charities. And the idea of a stingy America never mentions about $200 billion of the Pentagon's budget, which does things like keeping the Persian Gulf open to world commerce; protecting Europe; ensuring that the Aegean is free of shooting and that the waters between China, Korea, Taiwan, and Japan are relatively tranquil; and stopping nasty folk like the Taliban and Saddam from blowing up more Buddha monuments, desecrating Babylon, or ruining the ecology of the Tigris-Euphrates wetlands.

Action and results, not rhetoric and intentions, are what matter. Cease blaming others for declining popularity. There is neither a Karl Rove conspiracy nor an envisioned red-state theocracy. No, the problem with our Left is what killed the dinosaurs: a desire to plod on to oblivion in a rapidly evolving world.

â ” Victor Davis Hanson is a military historian and a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University. His website is victorhanson.com.
 
That article is dated July 8th. There are 900 in Kabul right now. Some simple Google searches will get you what you want.

FYC here is a more recent news blurb http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=577312&C=asiapac
 
S_Baker said:
I make no bones about it, the French have always been America's enemy, contrary to popular myth.   So

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't they a major supplier of troops, arms, and cash to the American revolution?
 
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