Cadet Dress in Public

[Burrows]

Open,  with this.

ood day,

The following is from headquarters in Borden. Should give you plenty of clarification on this issue. Remember for your own squadron exercises, your CO makes the determination of what dress will be worn.

All CADPAT clothing items can be considered "CF Combat Clothing" for the purposes of CATO 55-04. Air cadets who wear a complete set shall wear their blue rank slip-on, and approved cadet headress with RC Air C insignia (Note: the CADPAT field hat and helmet are not approved cadet headdress and shall not be worn by air cadets, options are wedge, blue beret, or issued PT hat).

Nothing prevents cadets from wearing the Cdn flag on combats (the OG 107 pattern issued to staff and course cadets for summer training purposes comes with the Cdn flag pre-sewn to the sleeve).

Nothing prevents a cadet from wearing a nametape on combats. An argument could be made that the environmental identifier is a CF Insignia, so it is best cadets have the nametapes made with name only.

The key issues here are that cadets are suitably attired for both prevailing weather conditions and the type of training being conducted, that cadets in any sort of military clothing are not mistaken for CF or other military personnel, that cadet insignia is only worn by cadets wearing full CF pattern clothing.

Note that the "high visibility" vests are to be worn "as required", and are therefore at the CO's discretion. Appropriate occasions for wear would be for hikes where trails are shared with ATV/snowmobiles or alongside roadways, training in heavy foliage where it would be easy to lose a cadet, training after sunset where visibility becomes a factor, or any other time high vis is required for safety and/or effective supervision.


D.A. Wright
Captain
Air Training Officer
RCSU Central

At least this has Central region Air cadets covered.

 

[Neill McKay]

Didn't you just answer your own question?   Authorised when serving aboard Ship would deem it to be an "Operational" role, not playing paintball, or camping in the woods.

The term Operational Dress has a particular meaning within the dress regs, my reading of which is that it includes (field) combats (regardless of colour or disruptive pattern) and naval combat dress.  However, the quote provided by Mr. Burrows would seem to clear the issue up anyway.

 

[Peace]

It clears it but, but its making me feel odd. I rember when i was in basic i didnt even get to take off my BIG ORNAGE BRASSARD until i was graduated, just so they knew who wasnt a full memeber.  If cadets handled themselfs to the best all the tiem like some cadets already do, then i would be proud to let them share the uniform with us.  But as is 95% of the time the juvinile tendencies of cadets(whom i appretiate for what the cadets are, because i was one) makes a bad impression some times.

Quite recentlly i ran into some army cadets wearing OD in the Canex here in Borden, and they were a sorry bunch acting like children and not as a "cadet" should. On another occasion i was in the JR mess beside A151 and looked up from my plate to see a CWO1 rank on a cadpat uniform , thinking to myself WTF???  I looked up and it was a kid with a mop top and a dirty sanchez un trimmed mustashe.

IF you are gonna wear the digs, which it seems you have the right to by the quote above, Then you must behave accordingly because if some of us cant tell the diff between you sometimes( not me but others) then what do you think the public thinks?  They already have a hard enough time understanding us let alone cadets who ARENT us.  So along those lines,  if hey cant tell and you do something good nobody will care. BUT as we are warrned about the public issue EVERY TIME we are to go into civiland if we mess up the immage is tarnished for EVERY CF member not just the soldier.  The Public sees a uniform NOT a cadet.


Please remind the cadets of this and make them understand, because we all know that there are the "pump" cadets who will slack and jerk around when nobody is looking.  BUT someone is ALWAYS looking.  Please make the cadets understand.  with the flag comes the responsibillity.

 

[medic65726]

Peace, you are absolutely right.
During my years in cadets I remember being reminded of this, and I took this issue very seriously.
Uniform was ealways clean, hair neatly trimmed, facial hair neatly shaved. I understand that kids will be kids, but if they want to run around like children, then a uniform might not be for them.
Trying to impart some level of responsibility, maturity and discipline, should be the utmost focus of all those who influence the cadets, from their parents, CIC officers, CIs and Senior cadets.
I am sure there were times when I was not completely appropriate in my behaviour, but I tried, after all, I was a child. (Well except my last year when I was Cadet RSM, but then again 18 is still usually a child, regardless of what the law says).

 

[armyvern]

The term Operational Dress has a particular meaning within the dress regs, my reading of which is that it includes (field) combats (regardless of colour or disruptive pattern) and naval combat dress.   However, the quote provided by Mr. Burrows would seem to clear the issue up anyway.

Actually the quote below has caused more confusion for me as a person who job it is to know clothing regulations and entitlements. As I have PMd Kyle, I have gone to NDHQ for word from the 'horse's mouth' not from a CATO which seems to be in direct contradiction to the published entitlements/authorization to wear cadpat that the CF has to work with. Ultimately NDHQ decides who is entitled to wear a piece of CF kit and their published regulations are the standard. When I have their response, I will post it.
Being as how, IAW Security Orders, I have to certify that I have Demilitarized it (shredded it) prior to handing it over to CADC for disposal as scrap material (or face the charge/vacation in ClubEd, such as our previous little slip-up in Edmonton caused by disposing of wearable cadpat outside of the CF). And seeing as how cadets are not entitled by scale of issue to be issued it, how could they possibly be authorized to wear it? We can't issue it to them and by regulations it shouldn't be available to be purchased at a surplus store. See now why my confusion continues?  ??? How can one possibly be authorized/allowed to wear something that they are not entitled to, which is not available for issue outside of the CF Supply system and which should not be being disposed of in it's whole state for purchase by non-CF personnel at surplus stores etc?

 

[condor888000]

Armyvern, one major way is because even here in Ottawa, all the stores have issued CADPAT on their shelves. All of them. Some look brand new and some look really really faded. People buy them all the time. And because of the ambigous wording of the CATO, we unfortunatley can claim to be authorized to wear it. As well, many a cadet will go out and buy the fake stuff and wear it.

CF combat clothing.
Cadets are authorized to wear CF combat clothing during Sqn survival exercises when authorized by the Sqn CO. A headdress (the wedge or blue beret with the Air Cadet hat insignia, widebrimmed tan summer hat or toque) and also cadet rank slip-ons shall be worn withwith CF combat clothing. CF combat clothing shall not be taken to CSTC. The Sqn CO shall ensure that all cadets wearing military camouflage clothing or civilian look-alike camouflage clothing while participating in Sqn survival exercises can be easily identified in the field through the use of coloured vests as required. Air Cadet headdress, hat insignia and rank slipons shall not be worn with civilian combat pattern clothing (CF look-alike) or any civilian clothing;

As you can see, nothing on whether or not CADPAT is specifically allowed. So, since many don't know theres a difference between Operational Dress and Combat Dress (heck, I just found out by reading this), people wear CADPAT. Just what hapens. Is it right? No. But thats what happens. And some units have standing orders that no cadet is to wear CADPAT. Mine for instance.

 

[armyvern]

Armyvern, one major way is because even here in Ottawa, all the stores have issued CADPAT on their shelves. All of them. Some look brand new and some look really really faded. People buy them all the time. And because of the ambigous wording of the CATO, we unfortunatley can claim to be authorized to wear it. As well, many a cadet will go out and buy the fake stuff and wear it.
As you can see, nothing on whether or not CADPAT is specifically allowed. So, since many don't know theres a difference between Operational Dress and Combat Dress (heck, I just found out by reading this), people wear CADPAT. Just what hapens. Is it right? No. But thats what happens. And some units have standing orders that no cadet is to wear CADPAT. Mine for instance.

There is cadpat out there (some even has stock numbers on it that is not REAL cadpat). We have personnel who actually are tasked to surf sites like ebay to watch for the "real" cadpat for sale. There are many "imposter versions" available which all differ from the "real stuff" and we can tell the difference. As to the ambigious wording of the CATO, I will once again point out that it specifcally reads "CF Combat Clothing" and I have NDHQ messages which states that cadpat is NOT CF Combat Clothing but "Operational Clothing" and yes, even we in the Reg Force still have pers in "Combat Clothing" as well. My directives say they are 2 totally different items. It is on exactly this point that I have requested a response from NDHQ. Someone is mis-intrpreting something somewhere (whether it be NDHQ or the Cadet org, I am not sure). Perhaps someone somewhere is assuming that CF Combat dress includes cadpat, and thus the difference in Cadet Unit rules laid down by the CO. Perhaps your CO is aware that cadpat is operational dress not combat dress and therefore is not to be worn. I don't know, but I have endeavoured to find out. I do know that I have written correspondance from Ottawa this past summer that stated in no uncertain terms that I was not authorized to issue anything but OG combats to Camp Argonaut as cadets were not authorized to dress in cadpat.

 

[armyvern]

Call me old fashioned, but last time I checked DND orders and definitions (combat vs. operational) took precedence over what in written in the CATO's. Remember who's paying the bills and who gets the final say.

I absolutely agree!! That's why I'm going to them for the answer, because ... only they have the answer!!

 

[sgt_mandal]

Open,   with this.

At least this has Central region Air cadets covered.

AHHHH you beet me to it......

 

[condor888000]

I am also in total agreement. I was just raising the point that it is possible that some air cadets wear CADPAT because they do NOT understand the difference. Especially since most of them will refer to nothing but the CATO and what their officers say. If those officers are mistaken, or misinformed, or uninformed or just plain don't care, you will see the cadets wearing it. As to the real CADPAT, I will admit, I have never worn a set, but I have seen plenty up close, and I am not attempting to claim to be an expert, but the stores seemed to have the exact item I'd seen on many a soldier. I understand what you are saying, I'm just stating what I saw, I would bet that you're right though.

Now to open a whole other can of worms....are the tacvests controlled to the same degree as the shirts/pants are? Because I have seen one of those up close, held it in my hands, and I've seen the exact item in one of the surplus stores. At least the same item as far as I could tell. All the pockets in the right place, all the fasteners were the same, tag was on it, etc.

 

[armyvern]

Once again, all I can say is... I will wait for the Official Rules from NDHQ as theirs ARE, whether we like them or not, the only rules that count, and no one has authority to contradict their rules. I'm done with this thread and will post the actual NDHQ response to cadets in cadpat as soon as I receive it, whatever it shall be.

 

[condor888000]

Alright, sounds good, thanks a whole bunch for going through the effort to help clear all this stuff up....

You're right and I once more agree Piper, but as long as its on sale where my cadets go for combats, I'd like to know whether or not it is even legal for them to have it in their possesion. Because I can guarentee you, someone will show up with it sooner or later, and I'd like to know what to tell them.

 

[armyvern]

You're right and I once more agree Piper, but as long as its on sale where my cadets go for combats, I'd like to know whether or not it is even legal for them to have it in their possesion. Because I can guarentee you, someone will show up with it sooner or later, and I'd like to know what to tell them.

Well, I can tell you that all items of military kit which incorporate the cadpat design are highly controlled. If a Supply Tech fails to shred it before he unloads it to CADC for disposal as scrap material...he can GO TO JAIL. So legally, this stuff shouldn't be available in the surplus stores in a wearable or repairable condition. Our CF cadpat has 'a little something extra' that I won't get into for security reasons. There are duplicates out there that do resemble our kit, and they even sew stock number labels into it (which differ from the actual SNs) but they do not contain the "little something extra."
I am not authorized to wear a Tactical Vest. Only personnel serving at first line units in support of or participating in 'dismounted operations' ie Reg/Res Force Infantry guys etc going to the field are entitled to this piece of kit. I wear the old pattern webbing.

 

[armyvern]

Now, I refer you all to the below Official DND web-site:

When you open the link click on "CTS General Allocation Table" this will list off every unit that is authorized to wear CTS cadpat:

Now scroll to the bottom of the first page and read the footnote:
"Note: This allocation table applies to military personnel only serving either in or in direct support of Land Force Regular and Reserve Units"

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/Chief_Land_Staff/Clothe_the_soldier/hab/Entitled_e.asp?Ref=113

No where do I see a single cadet Unit listed as being entitled to wear CTS cadpat. And cadets certainly do not qualify as Regular or Reserve Force Units. So I would argue, that despite the belief that the CATO allows you to wear any item of "combat clothing", this National Entitlement listing, specifically excludes cadets from being allowed to wear CTS Cadpat clothing by virtue of their neither being Reg or Res Force Units..

 

[Canuckx5]

Good Day to all Cadets.

I have a question.

Are Cadets subject to CF dress regs?

I was in my local Canex yesterday and there was a Sea Cadet Corp there.

I noticed Cadet PO's (Male with earrings) Females with Nose Rings and the male cadets, unshaven.

I found this rather appalling........any info

Just to reply to the original post (rather then what the thread seems to have evolved into right now about CADPAT).  I was in Cadets for about a year before I dropped it, and although we were told to have our hair short and not wear excessive jewelry or make-up (if you're a girl), most of the kids there were in cadets as a punishment from their parents (I don't know why, Cadets nowadays isn't exactly hardcore).  But the point is, these kids weren't in cadets cause they wanted to be, so they didn't exactly care about representing themselves in the most disciplined and cadet-like manner, and if the kids at my armory were like that it's very possible that the cadets 'HFXCrow' are talking about were the same way.

 

[Slim]

And people wonder why I'm so against cadets wearing anythihng that looks remotely like a CF uniform!

 

[The_Falcon]

Just to reply to the original post (rather then what the thread seems to have evolved into right now about CADPAT).   I was in Cadets for about a year before I dropped it, and although we were told to have our hair short and not wear excessive jewelry or make-up (if you're a girl), most of the kids there were in cadets as a punishment from their parents (I don't know why, Cadets nowadays isn't exactly hardcore).   But the point is, these kids weren't in cadets cause they wanted to be, so they didn't exactly care about representing themselves in the most disciplined and cadet-like manner, and if the kids at my armory were like that it's very possible that the cadets 'HFXCrow' are talking about were the same way.

If these cadets have such attitudes, it is incumbent on the leadership in the unit (ie the CIC) to either make these kids ship up, or start the process to boot their asses out.  Which I know is kinda hard considering there are some (some not all) CIC who are just as bad when it comes to dress and deportment issues.  You need to get it across to the parents, that cadets are not surrogate parents or babysitters.  When I was still involved with Scouts Canada (not boy scouts, hasn't existed in reality for some time but that is another discussion), we told the parents, we are not parents/babysitters for their kids, if there kids are/were problematic (we would do our best to try and correct thier behaviour, but for the most part it was a lost cause) we would tell them they were no longer welcome, and refused to allow them to register for the following year.

 

[fourninerzero]

Cadets do have dress regs, very similar ones to the reserves and regulars. most of the pictures in the manuals are identical to the ones we get. however, its upto the staff, officers and Sr NCOs of the units to sort their cadets out. typically lack of training, or lack of quality training in the officers leads to lack of quality training to the cadets and such goes the circle of terrible training and deportment.

 

[Slim]

Cadets do have dress regs, very similar ones to the reserves and regulars. most of the pictures in the manuals are identical to the ones we get. however, its upto the staff, officers and Sr NCOs of the units to sort their cadets out. typically lack of training, or lack of quality training in the officers leads to lack of quality training to the cadets and such goes the circle of terrible training and deportment.

So, until they do 'clean themselves up' we should take away any and all association with the reg force and the pres...So not to confuse the issue!

 

[Neill McKay]

Call me old fashioned, but last time I checked DND orders and definitions (combat vs. operational) took precedence over what in written in the CATO's. Remember who's paying the bills and who gets the final say.

CATOs are DND orders.  They're issued on the authority of the Director of Cadets, a colonel-level position in NDHQ.