Cadet Dress in Public

[Neill McKay]

Now, I refer you all to the below Official DND web-site:

When you open the link click on "CTS General Allocation Table" this will list off every unit that is authorized to wear CTS cadpat:

Now scroll to the bottom of the first page and read the footnote:
"Note: This allocation table applies to military personnel only serving either in or in direct support of Land Force Regular and Reserve Units"

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/Chief_Land_Staff/Clothe_the_soldier/hab/Entitled_e.asp?Ref=113

No where do I see a single cadet Unit listed as being entitled to wear CTS cadpat. And cadets certainly do not qualify as Regular or Reserve Force Units. So I would argue, that despite the belief that the CATO allows you to wear any item of "combat clothing", this National Entitlement listing, specifically excludes cadets from being allowed to wear CTS Cadpat clothing by virtue of their neither being Reg or Res Force Units.

But as you point out, the table only applies to military personnel, and only to land force ones at that.   Would you argue on the same basis that air force personnel aren't auth. to wear CadPat?   Or is their entitlement to do so perhaps governed by some other document?

Besides that, I think it's important to separate the entitlement to be issued an item from the authority to wear it.   I don't think anyone's arguing that cadets have an entitlement to be issued CadPat (or any other combat-related gear), but there is authority for them to wear it if they were somehow able to get it through legal means.   (The fact that such means may not exist doesn't really affect either issue.)

Five bucks says this will still be a topic of debate from one coast to the other until the day that the last set of OD combats in existence finally gets binned!

 

[Slim]

I believe that it says right in there that a formation, or members of, are allowed to be issued and wear operational dress if currents ops/taskings require it.

No cadet will ever be operationaly tasked to a posn where the wearing of a combat uniform is required due to enviormental conditions.

Now here's my questions. Leaving aside the issue of 'Hey its cool look at me' factor. Why do people feel that cadets should be allowed to wear CADPAT? Please be specific in your answers.

 

[Neill McKay]

Now here's my questions. Leaving aside the issue of 'Hey its cool look at me' factor. Why do people feel that cadets should be allowed to wear CADPAT? Please be specific in your answers.

Outdoor adventure training is part of all three cadet elements' training programmes, and in fact forms the core of the army cadet programme.   There is a need for a field uniform for cadets; the cadet DEUs are obviously unsuitable for the field.   Combats are perfect for it, having been designed for just that environment.

So why CadPat vice OD?   Because the latter is no longer in production.   While there might well be enough stock now to satisfy the needs of the cadet programme, that certainly won't be the case forever.   It doesn't make any sense to manufacture, store, and distribute OD combats especially for cadets when similar garments (in CadPat) exist in the supply system.

A secondary reason is that one of the three aims of the cadet programme is to stimulate an interest in the Armed Forces.  Cadets are attracted by the prospect of getting a taste of military life, and this includes wearing military-type uniforms.  I think we'd see a drop in cadet enrolment, to no gain of the Forces, if we were to dress cadets in, say, yellow sweaters and white trousers.  The LCF is a very real factor in cadet recruiting and consequent CF recruiting.

Why do so many people feel that it's a scandal for cadets to wear CadPat when cadets have been wearing the same combat uniform as the Forces for several decades without any apparent complaints?

 

[Slim]

Why do so many people feel that it's a scandal for cadets to wear CadPat when cadets have been wearing the same combat uniform as the Forces for several decades without any apparent complaints?

Ahh...But now we're dealing with a uniform that is 'controlled' by the establishment. Not released for civilian use (quite a common term in the Cf and the US army!)

IF cadets were to be issued with this uniform then the 'controls' per say would be lost and the material would very quickly find its way to the street.

Also cadets are not sworn members of the CF in any capacity so there is nothing preventing them from completely abusing the uniform in question...How many have already been picked up at painball matches with the fake stuff?!

Further...The uniform of the CF is one that members work very hard to earn the right to wear! I fell (as most of them probably do) that to issue this uniform to cadets would cheapen the value of earning the right to wear it for everyone else. Maybe that sounds pretty trivial to someone who is not 'in' but to those of us who have had to sweat in the weeds for real it means alott!

When I was in sea cadets we were issued old bush jackets and pants...They were not combat or operational dress per say but did the job just fine!

My posn has not changed on this issue and from the above reasons I see no motivation to alter it.

Slim

 

[Neill McKay]

IF cadets were to be issued with this uniform then the 'controls' per say would be lost and the material would very quickly find its way to the street.

Any civilian can buy the material from Wheelers, if not from other places as well.  The Canadian Forces-pattern garment may be controlled but the material itself can be had, in a manufactured product at least, by anyone.

My posn has not changed on this issue and from the above reasons I see no motivation to alter it.

No worries.

DCdts doesn't show any sign of altering its position either!

 

[Neill McKay]

And the DAOD's are issued on the authority of the CDS and the QR&O's under the authority of the Queen. Methinks DCadets is a little outranked here.

Sure, but that would only matter if the two were in conflict.  Do you see such a conflict, or just a loophole?

 

[armyvern]

Any civilian can buy the material from Wheelers, if not from other places as well.   The Canadian Forces-pattern garment may be controlled but the material itself can be had, in a manufactured product at least, by anyone.

No worries.

DCdts doesn't show any sign of altering its position either!

Actually, go to sites that sell cadpat material. They will point out that this material, although of a 'cadpat design' is NOT the material used to produce the CF operational dress. It does not come with the "operational capabilities" that ours does. Plain and simple. I will not get into what those specific properties are. But lets just say, a cadet will never have to worry about NOT having them integrated into his uniform.

Secondly, regarding the loophole comment. My response to the is this: A Criminal Code of Canada Offense:

It's called Impersonation:

Specifically, CCC Section 419 Impersonation:

"Everyone who, without lawful authority, the proof of which lies on him:
(a) wears a uniform of the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force or a uniform that is so similar to the uniform of any of those forces that it is likely to be mistaken therefore,"

So being as how the MND & CDS' Policy on the wearing of cadpat does not give lawful authority to cadets to wear it (it has only been lawfully authorized for CIC Officers to wear it - 2 sets), and their policy is the LAW, I would suggest the loophole is closed. Cadets are NOT lawfully authorized to wear CF cadpat. The personnel who sell CF cadpat on e-bay etc are being subjected to black marketeering (the selling or possesion of which is illegal I point out) charges as well as charges under the CTAT (Controlled Technology Access Transfer Regulations)

CTAT:
http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/3003/1_e.asp

"Under the Defence Production Act it is an offence for a person who is not registered under that Act to knowingly examine, possess or transfer a controlled good. The registration requirements do not apply to a person who occupies a position in the federal public service or a federal Crown Corporation, or is employed by Her Majesty in right of a province, who acts in good faith in the course of their duties and employment.

"Policy Statement
DND and the CF are committed to demonstrating responsiveness to, and responsibility for, all laws and regulations in respect of controlled goods.

Requirements
DND and the CF must:

ensure that all controlled goods are identified and afforded the necessary level of protection to prevent their unauthorized examination, possession or transfer;

ensure that DND employees and CF members exercise due diligence and permit access to controlled goods only by persons so authorized under the Defence Production Act and the Controlled Goods Regulations; and

provide for reporting and investigation if the security of a controlled good is compromised in any way.

Authority
Authority Table The following table identifies the authorities responsible for implementing the policy.

The Vice Chief of the Defence Staff (VCDS)
has the authority to direct that the management of controlled goods be included in business plans.

ADM(Mat)
approve and administer policy for controlled goods."
I didn't happen to notice that the DCdts had any authority to allow cadets to wear controlled goods...perhaps the CDS and the MND neglected to insert him??

 

[The_Falcon]

Outdoor adventure training is part of all three cadet elements' training programmes, and in fact forms the core of the army cadet programme.   There is a need for a field uniform for cadets; the cadet DEUs are obviously unsuitable for the field.   Combats are perfect for it, having been designed for just that environment.

So why CadPat vice OD?   Because the latter is no longer in production.   While there might well be enough stock now to satisfy the needs of the cadet programme, that certainly won't be the case forever.   It doesn't make any sense to manufacture, store, and distribute OD combats especially for cadets when similar garments (in CadPat) exist in the supply system.

A secondary reason is that one of the three aims of the cadet programme is to stimulate an interest in the Armed Forces.   Cadets are attracted by the prospect of getting a taste of military life, and this includes wearing military-type uniforms.   I think we'd see a drop in cadet enrolment, to no gain of the Forces, if we were to dress cadets in, say, yellow sweaters and white trousers.   The LCF is a very real factor in cadet recruiting and consequent CF recruiting.

Why do so many people feel that it's a scandal for cadets to wear CadPat when cadets have been wearing the same combat uniform as the Forces for several decades without any apparent complaints?

Sorry I utter fail to see how your comments support the positions that cadets are entitled to CadPat. First outdoor adventure training is a large component of the scouting and they do perfectly well wearing regular street clothes.  If you are afraid of the CF running out switch to the american style (Rothco and Propper both make OD BDUs), that way there is absolutely no confusion as neither nation wears OD anymore. Second cadets as you said "stimulates an interest", it is not an meant to be a direct recruiting base.  Also how many cadets are actually enrolling in CF on a yearly basis, do you have numbers to support your arguement.  If the LCF is a very real factor in cadet recruiting, then that speak volumes to me about how poorly cadet recruiting is conducted.  Finally what makes you so sure that people didn't have complaints about cadets wearing the old uniform?

 

[Springroll]

I personally feel that the CadPat should be left to the reg and res force. Old grimy green combats(which I prefer the look of anyways) should be issued to army cadets for use in the field only. Cadets should also be permitted to wear whatever they are able to find in an army surplus store, even if it is CadPat wannabe stuff. If a cadet gets their hands on some real CadPat, thenthere is someone else to pay for that, not the cadet since it was never issued to them in the first place.

 

[025]

Four years before I was in the reserves I joined cadets.. and back then, I had alot of respect for them, it was well structured and there was good disciplin.. people in your face, makeing u do push ups if u did somehting wrong.. and it generaly  resembled the military.. i had to quit about a year later because i moved.. when i rejoined the cadets (a year before the reserves) something called CHAP (Cadet Harassment Awareness Program) was introduced.. and everyhting went to shit.. no one knew how to properly march, orders during parade were spoken, not yelled as yelling was stressful to one of the cadets, no one was aloud to make u do push ups and it generaly resembled boy scouts.. i quit after the first weekend excercise which was an unorganised waist of time, when i tried to take a little initiavtive and tell some younger kids, who i was told to take of, what to do, they started threatining to ahve me charged for harassment..

I dont know if cadets are like this still, but as some one about to go reg force and move half way across the country away from my family and freinds i would be a little offended to know that the uniform I take real pride in wearing is being worn by these cadets.. and i take huge offense if they think they DESERVE to wear it..

Just my 2 cents   :warstory:

 

[Springroll]

Is that what the organization is like nowadays?

Back when I was in, we were treated much the same way as you were when you first joined. We were yelled at, did drill for hours(well only 2 hrs) PT nights were always VERY structured along with our regular parade nights. If you screwed up, you had many push ups in your future.

 

[Springroll]

Second cadets as you said "stimulates an interest", it is not an meant to be a direct recruiting base.   Also how many cadets are actually enrolling in CF on a yearly basis, do you have numbers to support your arguement.  

I can say that the majority of the people I was in cadets with went on to join the military, be it Reg or Res force. Now by the majority I mean approx 85%. There were a couple that joined the British Army and of course those that did not join at all.

 

[The_Falcon]

I can say that the majority of the people I was in cadets with went on to join the military, be it Reg or Res force. Now by the majority I mean approx 85%. There were a couple that joined the British Army and of course those that did not join at all.

Care to clarify?  I am suspecting that you are referring to your unit only. 

 

[Springroll]

Care to clarify?   I am suspecting that you are referring to your unit only.  

I was referring to the two units I was in, and the other cadets that I had developed friendships with that were not in my units.

 

[Neill McKay]

Sorry I utter fail to see how your comments support the positions that cadets are entitled to CadPat. First outdoor adventure training is a large component of the scouting and they do perfectly well wearing regular street clothes.

Yes, and they're responsible for providing their own uniforms and most other equipment.  In the cadet programme these are provided by the Crown.

In general, I'm afraid the argument "Scouts do it so cadets can too" won't go very far.

If you are afraid of the CF running out switch to the american style (Rothco and Propper both make OD BDUs), that way there is absolutely no confusion as neither nation wears OD anymore.

And for that matter there may well be a decision made to design and provide a unique cadet field uniform, although it hasn't been done yet.  As a practical matter, though, the more common items (between cadets and the Forces) the easier it is from a procurement and supply perspective.  Issuing CF-pattern combats (new or surplus) to cadets is simply easier all around.  I don't think hurt feelings are enough to defeat the cold, hard, cash saved from a streamlined supply system.

Second cadets as you said "stimulates an interest", it is not an meant to be a direct recruiting base.

That's correct.  But it's not especially relevant -- we stimulate an interest by, among other things, providing an environment that approximates a military environment.

Also how many cadets are actually enrolling in CF on a yearly basis, do you have numbers to support your arguement.

No, I don't know the exact numbers.  But it's clearly enough that the CF is still willing to make it all hapen.

If the LCF is a very real factor in cadet recruiting, then that speak volumes to me about how poorly cadet recruiting is conducted.

Nonsense -- LCF is used extensively even in CF recruiting.

Finally what makes you so sure that people didn't have complaints about cadets wearing the old uniform?

No doubt there were a few, as there's always someone looking to complain about something, but I've certainly never heard anything like the vehemence that's been put behind the anti CadPat arguments here.

 

[Neill McKay]

Four years before I was in the reserves I joined cadets.. and back then, I had alot of respect for them, it was well structured and there was good disciplin.. people in your face, makeing u do push ups if u did somehting wrong.. and it generaly  resembled the military.. i had to quit about a year later because i moved.. when i rejoined the cadets (a year before the reserves) something called CHAP (Cadet Harassment Awareness Program) was introduced.. and everyhting went to crap.. no one knew how to properly march, orders during parade were spoken, not yelled as yelling was stressful to one of the cadets, no one was aloud to make u do push ups and it generaly resembled boy scouts.. i quit after the first weekend excercise which was an unorganised waist of time, when i tried to take a little initiavtive and tell some younger kids, who i was told to take of, what to do, they started threatining to ahve me charged for harassment..

I dont know if cadets are like this still, but as some one about to go reg force and move half way across the country away from my family and freinds i would be a little offended to know that the uniform I take real pride in wearing is being worn by these cadets.. and i take huge offense if they think they DESERVE to wear it..

About all I can say to this is that you shouldn't judge the entire cadet programme, which is not much smaller than the regular force in the number of members, by a short time you spent in one especially numpty corps.

 

[Neill McKay]

Actually, go to sites that sell cadpat material. They will point out that this material, although of a 'cadpat design' is NOT the material used to produce the CF operational dress. It does not come with the "operational capabilities" that ours does. Plain and simple. I will not get into what those specific properties are. But lets just say, a cadet will never have to worry about NOT having them integrated into his uniform.

Secondly, regarding the loophole comment. My response to the is this: A Criminal Code of Canada Offense:

It's called Impersonation:

I'm just not interested enough in a lower-deck lawyering battle to pursue this one any further.  If you think you see the law being broken, go ahead and call the MPs and I'm sure the system will take care of it and the right thing will eventually be done.  Cheers!

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote from Springroll,
Old grimy green combats(which I prefer the look of anyways)

Well now, this is a first, I agree with Springroll on something. I first saw the Cadpat only last year at the Brockville Armouries and went what the #@&* is that?
They are as far from LCF as one could possably be.
They might be good for their purpose but as far as pleasing to anyone's eye, phhffftttt.....

 

[yoman]

My Air Cadet squadron allows all cadets to wear what they want. Including CADPAT fakes. I had a FTX last weekend in which some cadets wear wearing fake CADPAT, some of my CIC Air officers wearing CADPAT, Naval CIC and Reserve personnel wearing CADPAT. This was all done at Connaught Range, no body got in trouble for wearing fake CADPAT.

Now me personally, I don't think that cadets should wear the same combat clothing the CF does. We should wear something similar like the new CADETPAT so that you can easily tell who's a cadet or not.

 

[The_Falcon]

Yes, and they're responsible for providing their own uniforms and most other equipment.  In the cadet programme these are provided by the Crown.

In general, I'm afraid the argument "Scouts do it so cadets can too" won't go very far.

And for that matter there may well be a decision made to design and provide a unique cadet field uniform, although it hasn't been done yet.  As a practical matter, though, the more common items (between cadets and the Forces) the easier it is from a procurement and supply perspective.  Issuing CF-pattern combats (new or surplus) to cadets is simply easier all around.  I don't think hurt feelings are enough to defeat the cold, hard, cash saved from a streamlined supply system.

That's correct.  But it's not especially relevant -- we stimulate an interest by, among other things, providing an environment that approximates a military environment.

No, I don't know the exact numbers.  But it's clearly enough that the CF is still willing to make it all hapen.

Nonsense -- LCF is used extensively even in CF recruiting.

No doubt there were a few, as there's always someone looking to complain about something, but I've certainly never heard anything like the vehemence that's been put behind the anti CadPat arguments here.

Whats wrong with actually paying for uniforms and equipment, in a youth organization? Why won't the scouts can do it argumment fly  wrt to cadets (specially army cadets), because you say so?  As far as I can tell the programs themselves differ from each other very little other in most respects.  

So the army cadets may develop their own "unique"  (from the pics I saw it looks very very similar to marpat).  But you still have NOT provided a valid argument as to why cadets needs a uniform with a camoflauge pattern for the field (camping).  And seeing as how most cadets are not "uniform" in appearance in the field anyways do to the fact they have to purchase field stuff out there pocket.  In no way shape or form should DND pay for any field uniforms for cadets, as they are not required and those monies could be better spent providing uniforms for troops going on actual deployments.

As for LCF being used in CF ads, what ads have you been watching.  As has been disscussed other threads our ads are sorely lacking in things with LCF.

Maybe the reasoning behind the vehemence is due to the fact that many people involved with cadets (including cadets themselves) have it in their heads that they have some undeniable right to wear whatever the regs and pres wears.  This is WRONG.  Wearing the uniform is a PRIVELGE and an HONOUR awarded to those who have EARNED that PRIVELGE and HONOUR.  It is not about LOOKING COOL!!!  And anyone who uses that arguement no matter how small, has no idea what it means to wear that uniform (including CICs who make that arguement).  ODs are available, and that is all that should be permitted, not matter how uncool they may look, period.