Armoured Light Recce Vehicle for PRes Armd? (Merged splits from LAV III MGS and from TAPV)

[SeaKingTacco]

So, if I understand you correctly, you want to buy at least 119 vehicles (17 reserve armoured regiments x 7 cars).  But you don't want the Regular Force to touch them.  Which means they will never be used on operations, correct?  And the Regular Force could not really help with instructors or maintenance, right?

Let us say that we get each vehicle for 5 million dollars (a pretty cheap armoured vehicle, IMHO).  That would be $595 million.  Plus spares and tooling, ammuntion, simulators, vehicle hangars (I'm assuming each armoury does not have appropriate hangars right now)- could we agree that $1 Billion would be cheap for what you want to buy?

You want to spend around a billion dollars so that about 1700 reserve soldiers have a cool vehicle that would never be used on operations.  Am I putting words in your mouth? I'm not sure how these soldiers would then augment the regular force, if the vehicle is not the same as the Regular Force vehicle.

And you are still glossing over the maintenance issue.  It is nowhere as easy as " nearest Svc Bn, MRT".  Remember- you implied that you don't want the Regular Force to have anything to do with this vehicle, as you said:

The only problem being that once RegF pounds the piss out of theirs they make up their shortages out of vehicles ear-marked for the PRes.

.

Anyway, this has been fun, if completely unrealistic.  Have a great day!

 

[dapaterson]

Keep in mind that to support such a fleet, the Reserve Svc Bns would have to be enlarged significantly.  And, since the Army Reserve is at or about its paid strength limit, reductions would have to be found elsewhere.

So, which group should we reduce in strength to increase the number of vehicle techs and weapon techs?  plus, given the increasing use of electronics systems in modern fighting vehicles, we'll have to introduce EO techs to the Reserves, and bring back LCIS techs into the signals world.

 

[TCBF]

I will reply to a couple of posts:
1. by 'Reg Force' paying for Reservists on a PCF Crse, I did not mean (nor did I imply) that the Regt conducting the crse would be the Reg Force element paying the tab.
2. Shortages are qual instructors, not vehs.  Most of our "F" vehs spend 90% of their time parked.
3. I cannot cost a Surv Op crse as I am 10 1/2 timezones away at the moment.
4. Coyote COULD have had dismounts if a bench seat had been installed instead of the 'sex' chair.  Newer Surv Op stn could/should be smaller.
5. 2001, teaching ARTC, we put the Res Recce students in M113A1 APCs for the last "All Phase 3 and 4" exercise.  They then changed from 'vehicle movers' to 'Crew Commanders' over the next few days in the field.

 

[tango22a]

SeaKing Tacco:

What we have here is a failure to communicate. Looking back over the years I can well remember the Cougar fiasco and also the Bison fiasco where vehicles MEANT to be used by the PRes were diverted to the Regf to make up for vehicles that the RegF had trashed. The Bison was originally meant for the PRes, but we never were issued with even one (1).I even saw one ex-regiment Cougar in Ottawa in May, destined to become a gate guard. I had gunned, driven and crew-commanded that same vehicle before it was withdrawn from the Regiment to make up RegF shortages. Mind you, I realize that RegF needs take priority but you will agree that it is extremely hard to remain current in a vehicle when you don't have one.

Perhaps, for a change, sufficient vehicles COULD be purchased and sufficient spare parts to ensure that both RegF and PRes have enough for their needs with a reserve to cover vehicle casualties.

In the absence of Simulators it is necessary to have vehicles on the ground to train with.

As to service I realize we would require the support of a dedicated MRT supplied by RegF. Possibly some EME pers on their sunset postings would be interested ?

From some of the comments by others on this thread they cannot see any reason to purchase " OH MY G*D" ONE HUNDRED and NINETEEN (many exclamation points!) for the use of the PRes. This will divert support away from various projects which they feel are more important. If the vehicles are purchased in
sufficient quantities, with the emphasis on Sufficient, I feel there should be no problems.

IMHO a usable vehicle could be purchased for less than $5m per vehicle.Remember this vehicle does not have to be a LAVH or one of its clones. The vehicle I postulated in previous posts was only armed for self defence.

tango22a

OK all you SMEs feel free to roast my butt!

 

[dapaterson]

OK, so Reg F MRTs.  Let's assume a toal of 8 Reg F pers per Res unit = 17*8 = 136 new Reg F positions.  Again, where do they come from?  Do we disband one company from 3 PPCLI, convert the positions to EME and Sigs, then recruit and train them?  Where do the PYs come from to provide this ability?

Second, where do the PYs come from for more complex maintenance, beyond the abilities of the MRTs?  There's already a surplus of maintenance work out there, so when things are broken beyond the limited ability of the MRts, who fixes it?  (I have great faith in the ability of crewmen to use, abuse and break vehicles).

Third, what sort of recovery assets will be needed?  Sounds like a new ARV would be required - probably with about 20 vehicles (1 per unit = 17, 1 each for the Armd school and the EME school one log stock).  Unfortunately, development costs are fixed for such a thing, so the cost per unit goes up significantly.

Fourth, you spoke of "if there's a Svc Bn close by", then amended that to Refer to the Reg F.  Therefore, we're limited to Armd units close to Edmonton, Valcartier and Petawawa - only three Reg F Svc Bns.  That means that units like the BCD, Windsor Regt, and many others won't be covered - so what do we do with them?

 

[Kat Stevens]

Re-badge them as 19th Alberta Dragoons, of course!

 

[Franko]

Re-badge them as 19th Alberta Dragoons, of course!

:rofl:

 

[tango22a]

Gentlemen:

I really must admit that I only got involved in this as deeply as I am at the behest of SeaKing Tacco who asked what did I suggest. There seem to be a lot of non-Armour pers on this thread who really don't look at things from an Armour view point. My ideas are dated as I have been out on retirement for over twenty years, but I am not using that as a defence.

Whether you people like it or not we NEED a new Recce vehicle for both REgF and PRes!

All I can say is TANSTAAFL

You get what you're willing to pay for and for G*D's sake don't skimp on vehicle numbers, spares or equipment. We're going to have to pay now for being miserly in the past.So, unhappily will our troops if they are not provided with the best vehicle that we can procure. If the vehicle we purchase makes it difficult or impossible to do the job?....then we have nobody to blame but ourselves.

Moving fast across target range,

tango22a

Flame me all you want....us old dinosaurs are impervious!

Above all else, please don't ask me HOW to do it...SHOW me how we can do it!....and together we will succeed

 

[Eye In The Sky]

So, let me play this one out...

Bob:  We need new vehicles for both Reg and Res armd recce.

Jim:  Ok.  What do they need them for?

Bob:  Well, to do their job, of course.  We need to replace the Coyote's for the Reg folks...and the Res folks need a replacement to carry out their tasks.

Jim:  What are their tasks exactly?  Like...what part of 'fighting the good fight' do they fill in?

Bob:  Well...ummmmm. 


Define the roll, before anything else. 

When I was in D Sqn, it was easy for us to fill up the trg nights, weekends, etc.  Grab the "Recce Sqn in Battle" and "Troop Leader Manual", flip to a page and voila...pick something.  Can't find either of those?  AFV/AC rec.  Slides are missing?  OK.  Stables everyone.  Dvr's, off to the veh compound.  Obs, off you go with the Tp Gnry NCO for some wpn maint.  While we were doing "something" and at the Tp level, it was effective use of time, I can't say that our Sqn had a well-defined role to play within the Bde.  All you had to do was go to a Bde Ex and see what tasks they came up with for Recce Sqn to figure out NO ONE had a smick what to do with us, other than make us go away with a pat on the head and our FOA.

Define the role first.  Go from there.  Everything else, IMO, is another game of "pin the tail on the donkey', with the PRes Armd playing the role of the blindfolded kid who can't find the donkey's ass, with everyone else snickering and giggling.

Time to get rid of the damn blindfold isn't it? 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

So, now we're right back where I started this. We can't consider what we need in a vehicle until the Corps decides to take us serious enough to provide a 'viable' role and doctrine.

Until they wish to bring us into the fold, we're spinning our wheels and perhaps it's time to part company.

I think we've chewed the cabbage in this thread long enough. Thanks to everyone for their input.

T22A,

Time to put your spurs back in the closet, you're fighting a battle with twenty year old mentallity that no longer applies, if it ever really did. Leave it be, you're done here. You tried and that's all that can be asked. Your ideas are flawed to the max and as such, please quit speaking for us.

 

[Franko]

Above all else, please don't ask me HOW to do it...SHOW me how we can do it!....and together we will succeed

So, you identified a problem, have no viable solution to it at all to push higher, expecting everyone in the Corps to stop Ops and training to figure it out.

We're at war right now and have bigger things to take care of.

Regards

 

[Fishbone Jones]

DP,

Please don't go down that road. We've been taking the piss since well before we went into Afgahnistan. The Corps doesn't need that as the excuse.

 

[TCBF]

... All you had to do was go to a Bde Ex and see what tasks they came up with for Recce Sqn to figure out NO ONE had a smick what to do with us, other than make us go away with a pat on the head and our FOA. ...

- I have served in Reg Force Recce Sqns in Petawawa, Lahr, Edmonton not to mention Zgon and Kandahar, and even in the Regular Army, no one had a smick how to properly employ a Brigade Recce Sqn.  Lahr came the closest - no surprises there.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Ok.  So would this vehicle be the same as is used by the Regular Force units, or a unique fleet to the Reserve Force? 

If unique, who does the project management (given that there is no one left to project manage the stuff currently on the books)?  Where, doctrinally does this fleet in?  Most importantly- what is its operational role?  You have to admit, it would be a tough sell to any government to buy a fleet of (expensive) vehicles whose only purpose was to train people.

Now- How many vehicles for each Regiment?  A Troop? A Squadron? How do you propose to maintain these vehicles at each armoury?  How many maintainers and supply techs are you going to post to each Reserve Regiment to hand repairs and the Spare Parts accounts?  Which regular force units are you going to take them from?  Or are you just going to get the Minister to authorize 100s of new full-time positions?

Not to be cynical, but I think you are glossing over a lot of important details here and are given to wishful thinking.  And before you tell me to bugger off- I have more than a little experience in the Total Force world from the 1990s where a Reserve Unit was given almost a full Air Defence Battery's worth of equipment to use and maintain.  We had over 30 full time people working in the unit and it was a nightmare maintaining just trucks and Iltis, within 30 mins of Petawawa.  I cannot imagine a Reserve Armoured Regiment maintaining armoured vehicles without a significant manpower bill.  Who pays?

We kept a full Ops tasked battery in the 80's going with about 10 people fulltime, RSS and Class B with some support from the local Brigade HQ in Vancouver. It wasn't that hard, we did most of our own vehicle maintenance, including engine rebuilds of our 3 ton stack truck to keep it from being sent to Crown Assets. A couple of vehicle techs, a comms guy, QM staff and RHQ.

 

[dapaterson]

We kept a full Ops tasked battery in the 80's going with about 10 people fulltime, RSS and Class B with some support from the local Brigade HQ in Vancouver. It wasn't that hard, we did most of our own vehicle maintenance, including engine rebuilds of our 3 ton stack truck to keep it from being sent to Crown Assets. A couple of vehicle techs, a comms guy, QM staff and RHQ.

? What Ops tasks for 15Fd?  As I recall, the biggest sub-unit there is the band - I thought the guns were just part of the percussion section...

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Colin,

With respect- keeping 6 C1 Howitzers, some 5/4 tonne trucks and (then) new MLVWs serviceable with 10 guys is not even in the same league as contemplating penny-packeting armoured vehicles with complex surveillance and fire control systems around the countryside.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Never mind expensive, maintenance intensive tracks, Never mind surveillance vehicles. Give me back my Ferret, a GPMG and an AN/PPS 15. Cheap, easy and the ultimate mud recce vehicle.

Mechanically sound, cheap, no fancy electronics and perfectly suited to the 'pseudo' role the corps 'seems' to have relegated us to.

Everything you want us to do with the overpriced Mercedes SUV I can do with a Ferret in spades.

It's a armoured box with a radio and power train. For what it cost for our soccer mom vehicles, we could have probably built twice the amount of Ferrets.

Reserve crews would have no problem up keeping this virtually, maintenance free vehicle.

Our 'role' and 'task' has not changed since we used the Ferret. It was perfect then, there is no reason why it can't be now.

I don't know one person that spent more than six months properly employing that vehicle that doesn't moan the loss. A measure determined by corporate lobbying and short sighted boards who are now retired and don't have to live with the stupid decision that sent us down this path.

 

[tango22a]

SeaKing Tacco:

Pres Armour does not want or need complex surveillance suites or complex turrets. These are the purview of the RegF. NVGs and possibly a thermal viewer would be all that are needed.

Please listen to Recceguy, he's been doing this role for over 40 years, both RegF and PRes.

tango22a

Why do I feel like a voice crying in the wilderness?

 

[TCBF]

Never mind expensive, maintenance intensive tracks, Never mind surveillance vehicles. Give me back my Ferret, a GPMG and an AN/PPS 15. Cheap, easy and the ultimate mud recce vehicle.

Mechanically sound, cheap, no fancy electronics and perfectly suited to the 'pseudo' role the corps 'seems' to have relegated us to.

Everything you want us to do with the overpriced Mercedes SUV I can do with a Ferret in spades.

It's a armoured box with a radio and power train. For what it cost for our soccer mom vehicles, we could have probably built twice the amount of Ferrets.

Reserve crews would have no problem up keeping this virtually, maintenance free vehicle.

Our 'role' and 'task' has not changed since we used the Ferret. It was perfect then, there is no reason why it can't be now.

I don't know one person that spent more than six months properly employing that vehicle that doesn't moan the loss. A measure determined by corporate lobbying and short sighted boards who are now retired and don't have to live with the stupid decision that sent us down this path.

- That was A Sqn.  In B Sqn (Lynx), we loved how you guys could park five ferrets (a full Troop!) in the space that we could only fit 2 Lynx (of SEVEN in a Troop!).  Of course, the night one of your Ferrets woke up, realized that it's electrical system was English by design, set itself on fire, set the spare tire on the Ferret beside it on fire, coat the inside of the entire hangar (and my Lynx) with dead pigeons and rubber-tire soot...

Wait! Wait! Maint free? don't drop the fluid cuplink thingy...

At least when we got back from Cyprus in April 1979, the Ferrets were gone and were replaced by jeeps.  Finally, a cross-country vehicle for A Sqn!  Until they got four Cougars in January 1980...


8)

 

[Fishbone Jones]

- That was A Sqn.  In B Sqn (Lynx), we loved how you guys could park five ferrets (a full Troop!) in the space that we could only fit 2 Lynx (of SEVEN in a Troop!).  Of course, the night one of your Ferrets woke up, realized that it's electrical system was English by design, set itself on fire, set the spare tire on the Ferret beside it on fire, coat the inside of the entire hangar (and my Lynx) with dead pigeons and rubber-tire soot...

Wait! Wait! Maint free? don't drop the fluid cuplink thingy...

At least when we got back from Cyprus in April 1979, the Ferrets were gone and were replaced by jeeps.  Finally, a cross-country vehicle for A Sqn!  Until they got four Cougars in January 1980...


8)

Yeah, I think that was TJ's. It did create quite the mess. Good thing the fire piquet skipped his rounds and didn't open the doors allowing fresh air and oxygen in. I think he was from B Sqn :blotto:

It was seven ferrets per troop, parked in the same space as two lynx, not five ;D

The thingy you're trying to describe is the fluid coupling filler plug. You're right, if you dropped that down inside the housing you about had to pull the vehicle apart to get it out, but other than that, pretty much maint free

The rest of my points still stand though.