Alternate for the CIC

[combat_medic]

Let‘s address a few points here;

I can personally name for you at least 6 CIC officers off the top of my head, who rank Lt or below, under the age of 30, who are at least DOUBLE their recommended body weight. There is absolutely NO medical/physical requirement for getting into the CIC. Trust me, I am a medic after all. I‘ve encountered CICs with congenital heart problems, chronic arthritis, diabetes, and other MAJOR conditions that bar them from the CF (which is often the reason they join the CIC).

As for the interview and background check, yes they are done, but are not held to the same standards as the remainder of the CF. In fact, one CIC officer told me that the reason he was in the CIC is because he failed the background check. He could be lying, but who would knowingly make themselves out to be such a complete tool?

As for the basic CIC course, they ran one at the same time as my QL3 Med As, and I saw first hand about 25 Cadet OCdts (who were also mostly fat, btw)in 3 weekends of classroom training. I observed their training quite closely, and not a single one could do drill, salute correctly, or even wear the uniform properly by the end of 6 days. All of my coursemates and I remarked on how much shame they brought to the uniform as they swaggered up to the dias after 6 days and pulled their commission out of a cracker jack box. I wouldn‘t trust one of them to polish a boot (which they also failed miserably at), let alone lead a cadet or a real soldier.

You seem to be mistaking my disdain for ignorance, which is hardly the case. I have dealt with the cadet movement extensively, often for months on end, and have not yet encountered one who "deserved" respect. The only exception to this being the 60 year old, ex-Airborne, retired Reg Force Major I met. I respected him for his military service as an NCO, and not for his commission in the CIC.

Granted, I‘ve only met about 100 or so CIC officers. Perhaps every single one of them is a bad example and an embarassment to their uniform and the cadet movement. Maybe everyone else out there is some super officer and I‘ve only met the absolute worst ones, but somehow, I doubt it.

If you want me to start telling all my myriad of horror stories, I will, but you can take my word for it that every CIC officer I‘ve encountered has earned every single ounce of my disrespect.

 

[combat_medic]

Again, allow me to reinforce the fact that all of these opinions are drawn from my own experience. I would very much like to find some CICs out there who will change my mind, and make some sort of attempt to earn the respect that everyone here seems to think they deserve.

 

[elscotto937]

[No message]

 

[elscotto937]

Colin, I understand you comments, probably many of your friends are in the CIC and you knew them to be good cadets. And don‘t get me wrong there are plenty of good people out there who are in the CIC who are interested in being a good CF officer and supervising cadets. However, these good people are far out weighed by the problems of the masses. I have quite a few horror stories, of which I will spare you, needless to say they range from the extreme to the mildly annoying.
What most of the guys (reg force and PRes) have problems with are during the cross over, when they are interacting with military pers. Imagine a soldier who has trained for months for the privilege of wearing his countries uniform, he expects that officers (by definition) his superiors at least have some military training, and are wearing the uniform through some right of passage (real training). That is probably what make the Regs and Pres angry. I have worked with cadets for a couple of years and from my experience when the cadet corps act independently from the CF under strong CIC leadership there are no problems (this is not the rule)

 

[Franko]

Just thought I‘d chime in here.

I have instructed on BOQ courses. 3005 MWO I‘d hate to tell you this....

Combat Medic is correct in HER statement"and I saw first hand about 25 Cadet OCdts (who were also mostly fat, btw)in 3 weekends of classroom training. I observed their training quite closely, and not a single one could do drill, salute correctly, or even wear the uniform properly by the end of 6 days. All of my coursemates and I remarked on how much shame they brought to the uniform as they swaggered up to the dias after 6 days and pulled their commission out of a cracker jack box. I wouldn‘t trust one of them to polish a boot (which they also failed miserably at), let alone lead a cadet or a real soldier."

I had to literally be told to shut up by the ACO(who was Reg force BTW) when I protested 24 candidates passing this "course". They were well below standard...even for cadets. Dress and deportment deplorable. Drill...well below standard. As for attendance...the 24 were consistantly late..to the point I locked the drill hall doors and told them to wait until the class was completed(they got extras BTW).

Pretty bad for a group of 73 we pushed through that year. We had a OCdt who had 32 years service in the PPCLI go through...he wanted to kill the lot of them after one drill lecture.

Mind you he pulled me aside to tell me I was doing a great job of controling such a large drill class...a HUGE compliment(the man was a CSM..big time old school). He took the breaks in stride by telling the idiots in the group that they were"slack and idle" and should be "taken out back to get what SHOULD be comin‘ to them".

Anyways....seeing how you aren‘t even in the CIC, how do you know how the students are during courses?

But I digress...we are WAY off topic.

Regards

edited for quoting wrong gender

 

[combat_medic]

Franko: psssst, I‘m not a guy. Shhh, don‘t tell anyone.

 

[Franko]

Combat Medic...check other means...OUT!

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Nice recovery, Franko!!! CHEERS

 

[Franko]

Thank you Bruce. Anything to add to the topic...or just acolades?

Regards

 

[Franko]

Just kidding Bruce

Now I‘m getting the silent treatment?

Oh well.....

Regards

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Good morning Franko, No silent treatment for you, I just took a couple of days off work. Got free tickets for Boston vs. Ottawa thursday, and then friday to recover.[and then overtime today, I love Govt. jobs] CHEERS

 

[Franko]

Must be nice to have a few days off...kinda forget what that‘s like.

Oh well, I‘ll have a few in Vienna Austria in a few days on R&R for ya, and I‘ll be lifting a few for Murph and Doug as well...

Cheers(literally)

Franko

 

[Ltmel]

Again, allow me to reinforce the fact that all of these opinions are drawn from my own experience. I would very much like to find some CICs out there who will change my mind, and make some sort of attempt to earn the respect that everyone here seems to think they deserve.

   


Well, nice to see that people are convening in a forum set aside for us to disagree heatedly.   Will this continue or should I pull out now?  

Edited for personal attack.
1.   Too bad you've managed to find yourself in such a situation, have you considered that the reason you have only seen officer cadets graduating from a 12 day BOQ course is because that is the extent of the training that most will ever participate in or that your services were never required for anything more?
   How do you think i feel when I see these useless candidates wearing the same accoutrement's as me?   Rest assured you were looking at the future Supply and Admin officers of units all over the country.   Those of us that do more than that would love to participate in anything more advanced.   Is that where you'd like to see the military's funding going to?   The only reason our training system has suffered is that the funding is required elsewhere.

2.   I suggest that you attempt to get a summer posting to a cadet camp.   Steer clear of HQ, and get into the field with some CIC officers, then talk.

3.   you want complaining?   I train cadets all year, put in 20-30 hrs a week, attend one exercise a month and get paid less than $250 dollars a month.   Everything usefull piece of info I've learned, I have sought out from sn members whom I have worked with.   This means countless hours In an old retired majors office asking questions about ops orders and dress and tradition and discipline .....   Also paying close attention in the field and seeking advice from NCO's who unlike you, make an attempt to understand the system and assist in anyway they can.   The first time I was a platoon commander I was fortunate enough to have a Patricia Sgt as a training adviser who taught me more in a week than I would ever hope to learn in a classroom.   In my opinion, our training system would work better with more OJT, forget the rest.
  As for drill, have you ever tried to teach a 30-40 yr old civie everything there is to know about drill in 9 periods?   I bet you looked fantastic on the parade square your second day in uniform.(PS they do not receive a commission for at least a year after their basic, so settle down)
ahh yes, complaining.... I spend 5 of my six weeks on contract during the summer in the field.   Guess what I don't get.   Thats right, everything, I'd settle for not having to borrow a wash basin from a cadet.

But.. I love my job, who else will pay for a teenager from a   remote community that has a soaring suicide rate and drunken abusive parents or drug dealers for friends or is just a big loner .... to go somewhere to learn PRIDE and LOYALTY and PURPOSE?   Throw in a little leadership and now this kid has a chance in hell to develop a future.    This program is supported by our government and our military and trust me it is GOOD.   Stop complaining about the kid in the armouries whose beret looks like a pizza and go yell at the hellions on the street who are selling drugs.   Or stop complaining about the 45 year old mother who   has taken an intrest in their kids life and decided to join the organization who provides their children with something to do once a week.   Go have at the mother who is sitting in the bar while her kids are the ones selling drugs on the street.

4.   Medic:   do you honestly think you would ever see anyone who is fit?   Should I come down to MIR just to let you know that we are not all fat? "Hi I"m healthily!   And I pass the express test on a regular basis. ummm, see ya?"

thanks

This post edited in several areas for foul language (I don't care about asteriks, we all know what words are there and this is a thread for youth) and personal attacks.

 

[Scott]

Ltmel, with all of your hours for the youth from far away places you may indeed be a saintly, physically fit CIC. However, your comments earlier only showed you to be a bullying sort and a loudmouth. Wise up.

 

[winchable]

Please read the forum guidelines regarding personal attacks and circumventing the censor.

Now listen here you ignorant POS.

combat_medic's post was quite innocent and very polite, and quite frankly it is responses like yours which can give the CIC a bad reputation.

You've been warned.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

It's a shame that people with good things to say, like ltmel, feel the need to completely subvert their message by acting like a spoiled 10 year old.  Had his post been done in a more civil manner, there could have been room for a real discussion.  As it stands, all the good points he made are overshadowed by the fact that he made himself look like a tool.  **shrugs**

 

[Ltmel]

Ltmel, with all of your hours for the youth from far away places you may indeed be a saintly, physically fit CIC. However, your comments earlier only showed you to be a bullying sort and a loudmouth. Wise up.

It's a shame that people with good things to say, like ltmel, feel the need to completely subvert their message by acting like a spoiled 10 year old. Had his post been done in a more civil manner, there could have been room for a real discussion. As it stands, all the good points he made are overshadowed by the fact that he made himself look like a tool. **shrugs**

Granted, my negative comments made earlier were uncalled for.  I will not defend my personal attacks towards the people in this forum, nor will I react to the above comments towards me.  However, I will say that this puts us all on the same level.  I should have known that the only pieces of info that would be discussed would be irrelevant to what I was actually trying to say.  I hope we can overlook the offensive parts of my post and I would like to hear some reactions to the other points I had brought up.  This will not happen again.

 

[TCBF]

Very interesting.   I have had occasion to briefly help out a few Cadet Corps, and I was impressed by the dedication of most of their staff.   Over their heads?   Sometimes, but they knew where to get help, and they kept showing up.   As for PT, I would be willing to support a slightly out of shape CIC who heart and soul believes that Marksmanship Training was essential to the cadet movement, rather than an Olympic athlete who thinks all guns are evil.   Give me the brain, I can work with the body.

Tom

 

[combat_medic]

Ltmel: To address your actual points, you may care to re-read what I already wrote about my experiences. I worked an entire summer at a cadet camp, and wasn't simply relegated to the MIR. I didn't write based on opinion, I wrote based on experience. I had commissioned CIC officers who were teenagers try to stop me from performing first aid on a cadet; others who refused to help me lift a kid onto a stretcher. Beyond the physically/medically unfit CICs out there, there are a great many I have dealt with who are the least professional people I have ever encountered. You know, there may be some who ARE the super youth-leaders; those who are trying hard to make a difference in kids' lives. All I've said is I've never come across them. Many people show up with a CIC commission and virtually no TI and immediately expect to be respected and obeyed. Respect must be earned, and no CICs that I have met have earned it. I'm still waiting for one to prove me wrong, and I sincerely hope they do.

 

[sgt_mandal]

I have had the unpleasant opportunity to have to work with some very immature CIC officers, but the majority I have known have been very good. Maybe it's just my good luck, but I have had some very competent CIC officers.

combat_medic, I may be wrong, but it sounds like you are saying most CIC officers are "immature teenagers". If I am miss-reading your posts, I apologize in advance, if not, then I must say, the CIC has it's share of immature teenaged officers, but they also have a huge cache of very mature members who I feel are worthy officers and who I would respect. I hope that one day you have the opportunity to meet CIC officers worthy of your respect.