Alternate for the CIC

[Franko]

True. But what some people think isn‘t ness. the best thing for the CIC cadre.

Why couldn‘t the standards be increased for the benifit of the people of which you are in charge of? As for an impact I think it would be a good thing...if brought in slowly and gradual. Sudden change of course is not the best solution, it will cause more problems than it will solve.

Regads

 

[John Nayduk]

Here's my two cents. I came up through the cadet system in the 70s. We wore the old battle dress uniform so I guess that makes me a dinosaur. How about this, get better training for the CIC officers and allow retired NCOs to become part of the CIC as NCOs. These NCOs would handle the training as they did in the Forces. The officers would be what they should be, the administrators of the cadet corp. Since they got rid of cadet officers back in the Stone Age, the highest rank a cadet can achieve is a cadet CWO. Wouldn't it make sense to have NCOs train the up and coming NCOs of the cadet corp?

 

[Franko]

Another Recce Guy....

YOU ARE IN CLEAR VIOLATION OF THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX! GET BACK IN BEFORE OTHERS START DOING THE SAME.

Regards

 

[John Nayduk]

Oh, sorry. What was I thinking.

 

[combat_medic]

I‘m going to throw in a couple cents from someone who is neither a cadet nor a CIC officer.

I have worked extensively with the cadet movement through my own unit as well as through outside taskings at cadet camps. And, with virtually no exceptions, I have NEVER met a CIC officer whom I would salute if I were not absolutely required to do so. I have probably met close to a hundred CIC officers, and if even one of them thought they "deserved" respect, then they are kidding themselves. The vast majority were excessively overweight, they all had serious attitude problems, and were vainglorious, selfish, and egomaniacal. The cadets themselves were often more professional than these pretended officers.

For all the cadets and CIC officers who think that the CIC should be commissioned, then they should be held up to the same standards as the CF. To do a couple weekends of classroom training, and expect to get a commission out of that is downright insulting to all the people who EARNED theirs. It‘s like EARNING respect, it shouldn‘t just be handed out after spending 4 days in a classroom.

If there is a recruiting problem, then fine, lower the standards until the cows come home. But, if you can‘t compete at the basic minimum standards of the CF, then you shouldn‘t be holding its commission, and shouldn‘t be expecting the respect, or even the compliments from its members who are busting their buts for months, and even years to earn what the CIC was given.

 

[elscotto937]

Earlier on in this post Caz said that the ties to the CF are the justification for having CIC officers remain in the CF. I can buy that one...But many of you are stating that because the job is different, raising the standards would be pointless (for the Cadets at least). Maybe taking the CIC out of the CF would remove the burden of being a professional officer away from the Cadre. Does anyone beside Caz have a good justification for CIC officers being members of the CF...

 

[Franko]

Then why would the CF even bother funding the cadet movement if the CIC were removed from the CF as a whole?

Something to think about.

Regards

 

[cdhoult]

Originally posted by Another Recce Guy:
[qb] Here's my two cents. I came up through the cadet system in the 70s. We wore the old battle dress uniform so I guess that makes me a dinosaur. How about this, get better training for the CIC officers and allow retired NCOs to become part of the CIC as NCOs. These NCOs would handle the training as they did in the Forces. The officers would be what they should be, the administrators of the cadet corp. Since they got rid of cadet officers back in the Stone Age, the highest rank a cadet can achieve is a cadet CWO. Wouldn't it make sense to have NCOs train the up and coming NCOs of the cadet corp? [/qb]

This occassionally happens, actually....retired NCO‘s getting paid at their rank level, working at a Cadet Corps...usually if they are a specialist, or the corps is short on officers. It‘s usually the latter, and should an officer come along, they must leave.

But think of it this way. Would you let joe-blow CIC Officer anywhere a tank? And if you DID for some odd reason, would you let them touch it? Fire rounds, etc? (Sorry, I know NOTHING about tanks). And most of all, would you let them command your troops?

Likewise, the CIC Officers are trained to work with YOUTH. It is their area of expertise. While I can appreciate the talent and ability of many NCO‘s, many don‘t know how to work with youth, they weren‘t trained to.

Dealing with a 25 year old Sgt who is out of line is significantly different from dealing with a 12 year old who is out of line.

combat_medic:

I‘ve seen some of the officers you talk about, the ones who don‘t really get an ego boost anywhere else, and therefore use the cadet system as a gateway for it.

I‘ve also seen incredibly dedicated officers with outstanding leadership capabilities. Usually the few bad officers ruin the reputation of the entire movement. (Bad News travels around the world, before the truth even has a chance to get its pants on)

As I already stated, there are huge differences in training. It‘s like like you join the CIC, and a year late, BOOM, you have a commission. Unlike reservists, who have the benefit of being in classes, being intructed, etc, these CIC Officers often run training programs, administration systems, and sometimes, even a corps. They have to proove that they do indeed deserve their commission, and quite frankly, I think they do. A lot learn as they go, and trip on the way.

A lot of the officers are are talking about, from my experience, are the ones who joined before the standards were being strictly enforced (screening interviews, etc), and are being grandfather-claused out.

It‘s like me saying I‘ve never met a Reg Force Sgt who I respected, all the ones I‘ve seen are fat, sit in an office, and half the time, just avoid work like the plague.

Mutual Respect for others qualifications is necessary for the entire CF. And from some posts in here, it would appear that there is a severe lack of it at times...at least, that‘s my impression.

CH

 

[John Nayduk]

I see your point in regards to being trained to work with youth. Would there be anything wrong with having the NCO take the same course as the CIC officers that get them qualified to work with young people? There must be such a course or how do CIC officers get trained? It's common for NCOs and officers to take the same course (in the Armoured Corp anyway) so I don't think having both groups in the same classroom would be a problem. Due to our advanced age, many of the NCOs who would work with the cadet corps probably have had kids of their own. Many of the young second lieutenants and lieutenants coming into a cadet corp, many of whom are ex-cadets themselves who have become too old to remain a cadet, do not have that experience. And don't forget, a man with experience will never have to answer to a man with only a theory.

 

[elscotto937]

Then Mr Hoult, due to the fact that most Officers of the CIC learn thier job from OJT, would you advocate an few years as an officer cadet taking crses and learning as an apprentice TrgO or AdminO, before they qualify for thier commission. They do not need the commission to supervise cadets and act as members of the CF. That would sound reasonable to me, 9 months of evenings and some weekends does not an officer make. And it would make the commission more equal to the commissioned officers of the Reg and PRes Force.

 

[cdhoult]

Would you object to CIC Officers taking Reg/PRes Courses? Most CIC Officers, dependinf on their experience/qualifications, have to start from the bottom if they transfer (My old XO was a Lt(N), he‘s now an OS)

And Scott937, I‘d advocate it, but I‘m not entirely sure of the rules surrounding it. In Central Region, a NCdt isn‘t allowed to be the only one anywhere...we must have a commissioned officer, especially with on water activities. The way it was explained to me is that NCdt‘s aren‘t liable, at least for cadets (I don‘t know, I don‘t have a reference, this is what I was told).

I‘d say a year as an OCdt is fine though...I could join the NavRes, and get a commission is just over a year.

CH

 

[John Nayduk]

I'll assume that the question about CIC officers taking regular/reserve force courses is directed at me, the answer is NOT AT ALL! That might do a couple of things. The first would be to give the CIC officers a little more credibility and some knowledge of the workings of the Canadian Forces. The second benefit would be that they would have solid leadership training that was up to the standard of the Forces. The sponsoring units might be more likely to invite some of these officers to work more closely with those units. I see it as a win/win situation for everyone.
I had a friend several years ago who was a CIC lieutenant who was considering joining my reserve regiment. The Commanding Officer at the time told him that his CIC rank really meant very little in the reserve. He was offered corporal. When the difference in qualifications between, in this case, an Armoured officer and a CIC officer of the same rank, it became clear to my friend why the offer of corporal was made. I remember this friend of mine telling me that his Basic Officer course lasted two weeks and his Army Officer course took another two weeks. Boom, he's a lieutenant. Compare that to an officer who does the RESO course in Gagetown. That's two back-to-back summers of (I believe) 12 or 16 weeks each to get qualified as a lieutenant. Big difference. Of course the CIC officer will never be asked to do what the regular/reserve officer will do. It's all a matter of what the person needs to know to do the job that they have.

 

[cdhoult]

Then I guess we agree

I wouldn‘t open ALL courses to them, but Leadership Courses, etc, I would fully support...I‘m not very well versed on courses offered to officers in the reg force.

 

[John Nayduk]

Agreed, there would be no reason they would have to take, say, a troopers course because they would never use that training.

You had mentioned that you could get a commission in the navy reserve. If you have a degree, I believe, you become a second lieutenant as soon as you join. It doesn't matter which arm of the service you join. If you're thinking about it, try a year or two in the ranks first. I'll give you valuable experience and might make you a better leader.

 

[elscotto937]

Honestly, I don‘t know the rules surrounding the supervision, but if the system would allow a delayed development period for CIC then the could base the supervision of Cadets on qualification crses rather than the rank. This would allow OCdts on Corps level OJT develop and learn, possibly through PRes or even Reg force crses. In the air element, the Flight Safety Officers attend the regular force FSO crse, so in some cases it happens already.

 

[cdhoult]

The occassional case where the training will be applied in their CIC life.

So if I can get a commission instantly with a degree, what‘s the harm in some people waiting a year for theirs (most have valuable life and/or cadet experience).

 

[elscotto937]

Colin, that is a completely different argument, I definately don‘t agree with people walking in off the street getting commissions, just because they attended university. Then again, they may wear these ranks but they are still under training where as the CIC officers are expected to do an officers job. Personnally, I think the best way to handle it would be:
3 yrs as and OCdt and in those 3 years attend the crses to be an LT (LTQ, BOQ, MOC, and I think there is another one) at then end of that time be commissioned as a 2Lt, then follow the normal path. This would provide civilians a chance to develop some military bearing, and former cadets to grow-up (I don‘t mean this in a derogatory manner) and realize the difference between the miltary and cadets, before they become an officer Mainly, it‘s a "do your time" measure, to ensure pers are trained wear the rank. As everyone I think can agree the BOQ alone is not enough.

 

[Franko]

To add to that Scott937...

The wannabies will fall off the vine and wither, and that‘s a good thing.

Too often I‘ve seen young CIC officers think they really are in the army and are trained to fight the fight instead of concentrating on their job...which is to train and supervise the cadet corps.

Regards

 

[cdhoult]

3 years? I don‘t think so...maybe doing smore more training in that year.

But as I already pointed out, if other Reservists can get commissioned in 2 summers, than I think the same rule should apply to CIC Officers.

 

[elscotto937]

If it is 2 Summers of training, then I would have no problem with a 1 year period, and during the year in the middle, they apprentice a CIC commissioned officer.