Youth violence, and solving the problem

[pbi]

On a related note, I remain very skeptical about the true value of the "boot camp" programs in actually bringing about the long-term, long-lasting behavioural changes that are required to change most offenders into halfway productive and law abiding people. Beyond making us feel good (Yaah! Kicked their teenage *sses didn't it!, etc) I wonder just exactly what the statistical track record is?

IMHO people make a false connection between the success of "boot camp" in the military and its usefulness in correcting criminals.

-To begin with, if Canadian statistics are anything at all like US figures, then IIRC about half of these people are mentally disordered to some degree. At the low end it may be anti-social personality disorder, while further along the disorder spectrum it might even be psycopathy. In other words, they have difficulty functioning properly at all. This was certainly reinforced to me by comments I noted from prison staff in various Federal institutions in Western Canada a few years ago;

-next, these people are in prison/detention because they have to be, not because they desire to be;

-third, IMHO the "boot camp" system appears to work in the military for a much wider range of factors, not the least of which is that after boot camp, the soldier goes on to experience other aspects of military life in an environment that reinforces good, group-oriented behaviour and sanctions (be it ever so weakly....) bad behavoiur. Even with all of that, the effects of boot camp can wear off: if it were not so, we would not require an ongoing system of military discipline that includes CFSDB. Further, in the last decade or so the CF has produced a number of unpleasant criminals of various types, all of   whom presumably went through recruit training: evidently it is not a guarantee. The widely varying levels of personal discipline and behaviour in various units under various types of leaders further supports my contention IMHO. Now,lets take the offender who goes through "boot camp" and is then released back to civilian life. What happens? I will wager that the great majority of these will not return to function in an environment where whatever useful traits they learned in "boot camp" will be reinforced: quite the contrary. I bet you they wil go   back to their old life in fairly short order. In fact, IMHO this return to their former sh*tbird haunts is often a factor in recidivism.

I'd really like to see some proof that "boot camp" actually works out in making good ciitizens out of offenders. Cheers.

 

[Slim]

Hey PBI

I have enjoyed reading your above post and I feel you make some excellent points.

Having had a limited exposure to the criminal justice system and corrections Canada (I worked in a half way house for a time as security) I have often thought about the type of person who is incarserated for serious criminal acts.

There are many methods constantly being suggested to "re-habilitate" people who are convicted of serious crimes (murder, rape, ect) ranging from programs to time spent with the victems and their families in order to realize just how badly the victim was hurt.

Does it have an effect...well in some cases maybe it does. However in most cases it does not becuase the person committing the crime must have the desire to change.

I believe that the same factor applies to youth violence. Bruce M and other forum members here connected with the Canadian Corrections system would probably agree that the average youth who committs a crime would not be changed by these "bootcamp" programs because they really don't have a desire to alter the way they live their lives...Or perhaps can't alter their circumstances of their lives outside of the corrections system. Any system can be survived if the individual is tough enough and the will to do so is present.

Or even if the desire to change is there, what hapens when the formerly incarserated individual is released straight back into the very same circumstsnces that prompted him/her to commit the crime in the first place.

What I'm getting at is that I think that in SOME cases the system has to realize that "re-habilitation" is not possible and the welfare of society has to be placed above the welfare of the person committing the crime.

My thoughts

Slim

 

[Torlyn]

Does it have an effect...well in some cases maybe it does. However in most cases it does not becuase the person committing the crime must have the desire to change.

Might want to re-check your facts...  Given that the recidivism rate is around 17% (juristat reader) it's apparent that MOST people to not re-offend, thus are rehabilitated back in to society.  Most people who go to jail only do so once.

T

 

[48Highlander]

    I don't know where you got that 17% figure from but it's nowhere close to the truth.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Ottawa/Michael_Harris/2004/11/12/pf-710601.html

http://www.psepc-sppcc.gc.ca/publications/corrections/200302_e.asp

    Thge first article claims a rate of 37%, the second, a study by the government of Canada, claims a rate of 40% or slightly more.  In fact, the reconviction rate for VIOLENT crimes is 13%, so maybe that's where you got your much lower figure from?

    Also, recidivism rates for boot camps have always been lower than for regular youth prisons, but I don't have the stats at the moment to back it up.

 

[Torlyn]

    I don't know where you got that 17% figure from but it's nowhere close to the truth.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Ottawa/Michael_Harris/2004/11/12/pf-710601.html

http://www.psepc-sppcc.gc.ca/publications/corrections/200302_e.asp

    Thge first article claims a rate of 37%, the second, a study by the government of Canada, claims a rate of 40% or slightly more.  In fact, the reconviction rate for VIOLENT crimes is 13%, so maybe that's where you got your much lower figure from?

THe 17% I got from the juristat doesn't include re-reconviction, which the second link you posted does, ergo the lower number from the juristat.  I probably should have said that statistically, 83% of offenders only "offend" (get convicted, what have you) once.  Of those 17% that re-offend, they do so more than once, which is where the higher 40% comes from...  (My brain hurts now...)  Anywho, there you go.  If nothing else, it's a wonderful example of how statistically speaking, statistics aren't fact. 

T

 

[48Highlander]

    Uhm, I was about to agree with your post untill I saw the line about 83% only getting convicted once.  If roughly 40% of offenders will re-offend one or more times, that means that only 60% will only be convincted once.  The 17% figure is a statistic of those who only re-offend once, but that falls within the 40% who re-offend one or more times.  In other words, 60% of those going to jail will learn their lesson the first time.  17% will return for a second visit before getting the message.  That leaves 27% who will continue to commit crimes and be convicted for them.

    Keep in mind also that all these statistics only track offenders for a 2 year period.  That means that if I get released from jail today, and then go back to jail in 2 and a half years, I won't be counted as a repeat offender.  This despite the fact that I may be commiting all sorts of crimes in between and simply not be caught and convicted for 2 and a half years.

    Also keep in mind that these statistics do NOT count criminals who serve time at a federal penetentiary and are then convicted and sentenced to a provincial jail.  In other words, I could be released from a federal pen today, knock over a convinience store toorrow, and end up in a provincial jail next month, and not be counted as a repeat offender.

    And also, none of these stats are relevant when dealing with young offenders:  they're not included in the numbers.

    So overall, I'd say these statistics are next to useless, which explains why the government was able to use them to try and show that we only have a 10% federal re-offender rate.  You can use them to show almost anything, but any in depth analysis of the argument will make it clear that a lot more study needs to be done before any conclusions are drawn.  What is clear though is that the re-offender rate is at least 40% even with all the failiures in how these statistics were gathered.

 

[pbi]

I am also extremely skeptical of this figure of 17%. I recall that during the prison recce I referred to above (admittedly about ten years ago...) IIRC the figure of 80% was mentioned on several occasions. This seems a bit high, and I did not ask for statistical proof at the time. However, if we factor in all of the other ways that miscreants can re-offend but yet apparently slip under Corrections Canada's   recidivism radar , IMHO a figure of considerably more than 17% becomes likely.

In any case, I remain very strongly convinced that the likelihood of re-offending (or, conversely, the likelihood of becoming a law-abiding, job-holding citizen...) has a whole lot more to do with what kind of company you keep, and what kind of environment you live in, after you have done your time, be that boot camp, cells, or some minimum security country club.

As I have commented elsewhere before, I really wonder how much actual "rehabilitation" occurs as opposed to just warehousing. (and this is not a jab at the uniformed officers in CSC or elsewhere, who have a very difficult job dealing with some of the most hideous people in Canada). Further, I wonder that we may not actually be producing a class of criminals who are no longer deterred by prison because it is merely an inconvenience. I use Stony Mountain north of Winnipeg as an example: I have heard from several sources that it is badly infiltrated with aboriginal gangs, and inmates are generally only temporarily inconvenienced in conducting their criminal affairs outside the wire, not prevented from them, since there are ways in which they can keep business going. Even when I did the prison recce years ago, comments were made then by uniforms (not by "suits") that it was a good question as to exactly who was really running things in the worst prisons, and that for a number of guards their job was really just a question of surviving in a "live and let live" arrangement.

How well does this system really serve us, I wonder? This is an honest question not a rhetorical one. Cheers.

 

[Slim]

Might want to re-check your facts...  Given that the recidivism rate is around 17% (juristat reader) it's apparent that MOST people to not re-offend, thus are rehabilitated back in to society.  Most people who go to jail only do so once.

hey Torlyn

Ask Bruce M or some of the others what, exactly, constatutes a "repeat Offender" in Canada. The answer will make you shake your head!

The system is made to sound much better than it is!

Slim

 

[pbi]

The system is made to sound much better than it is!

I don't have much current first-hand knowledge, but I fear that Slim is right. I think that CSC, like any large bureaucracy that frequently attracts negative public attention, has a built-in defense reaction to make itself appear successful. The problem may be even bigger than CSC: maybe nobody really knows what can be done with these people short of life imprisonment or banishment to the Arctic or something. Cheers.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote from PBI,
Further, I wonder that we may not actually be producing a class of criminals who are no longer deterred by prison because it is merely an inconvenience.

We are not producing them, we've already produced them. Going to prison is just part of the way the "business" is run nowadays.
A prison sentence is no difference to most than you going on your next tour, except that you won't get 3 visits a week and one weekend in the trailer every 8 weeks or so......and the people running CCS have even less credibility than some old Nortel execs. :-[

 

[pbi]

We are not producing them, we've already produced them. Going to prison is just part of the way the "business" is run nowadays.

Yes, this is exactly what I think. In our Bde we have a CWO who is also a corrections officer. Stories he has told me suggest that little has improved since I visited places like Mountain,Agassiz and Drumheller. There seems to be as much danger to the officers (and their families...) as there is to the inmates.

In particular (at the risk of being accused of various things...) it seems to me (living in Winnipeg) that the very dysfunctional state of urban aboriginal society has produced some extremely hard-core and nasty gangs made up of people who are afraid of very little, certainly not of going to jail. How does one go about the rehabilitation of someone who has little or no functioning idea of right or wrong, and who has been raised in the environment represented by the worst parts of the North End? Perhaps this does not worry people east of the Lakehead, but IIRC out West the majority of inmates in both systems are aboriginals. Cheers.

[Moderator edit:  Fixed "quote" codes for clarity - no content altered]

 

[Torlyn]

hey Torlyn

Ask Bruce M or some of the others what, exactly, constatutes a "repeat Offender" in Canada. The answer will make you shake your head!

The system is made to sound much better than it is!

No questions there...  I've done work in forensic psych (ah, what a checker'd past I have) so I know what the worst of the worst do.  Certain pedophiles that we had to treat as human beings come to mind...  (God, I wouldn't wish that job on ANYONE)  I also know that for many repeat offenders, they've refused to pay fines, served time, and done the same thing again.  It all counts to the stats, you know.    But I think that 48highlander said it best, "So overall, I'd say these statistics are next to useless, which explains why the government was able to use them to try and show that we only have a 10% federal re-offender rate".  It sucks, we've shown how useless stats are, and yet i STILL had to take a bunch of stats courses to get my degree...  How's that for redundant? 

T

 

[The_Falcon]

This story first appeared Sat, but now there is more info on what happen including the age of the suspect

Slain robber part of gang: Source

17-YEAR-OLD LEVELLED SHOTGUN BEFORE COP KILLED HIM

By JONATHAN JENKINS AND ROB LAMBERTI, TORONTO SUN


A SHOTGUN-TOTING teen shot dead by a Toronto cop as he fled an east-end robbery may be part of a gang involved in an Ajax gas station heist where a clerk was stabbed, a source says. The 17-year-old, who sources say has a long criminal record and is well-known to Durham police, was one of four robbers armed with at least three shotguns who struck Windjammers Sports store on Danforth Ave. New Year's Eve.

He was shot at least twice as he emerged from the heist by 55 Division Sgt. Mark Randle, a 24-year veteran who was 15 minutes away from ending his shift.

The teen, whose name was not released last night, apparently levelled a sawed-off shotgun at Randle, who opened fire before the teen was able to shoot. That shotgun was dumped at the scene and the wounded teen, bleeding from the chest and abdomen, ran to a waiting getaway car.

'DID A GOOD JOB'

"He took decisive action when he got there," an officer said of Randle. "He did a good job."

Police said the teen was with three accomplices who escaped in several stolen vehicles, three of which have been recovered.

Three shotguns were recovered from one of those vehicles, a police source said. At least three suspects remain at large and are still considered armed and dangerous by detectives.

The gang went into the clothing store just before 6 p.m. armed with two sawed-off shotguns and a full-barrelled shotgun.

While the three armed suspects kept the two employees at bay, a fourth gathered up the loot, police said. Two others were apparently keeping watch by a store across the street.

The bandits hit one of the staffers in the head before fleeing with a large amount of clothing, police said.

The teen was found about 10 minutes later lying between two houses in the Main St.-Danforth Ave. area. He died in hospital.

A VW Golf, which crashed in the intersection, had a window shot out, most likely from a police bullet. Two vans were also recovered, including one filled with stolen clothing found on Dawes Rd. south of Danforth Ave.

Police are still looking for a white four-door Honda, which had been stolen from a Denny's Restaurant on Hwy. 2 in Pickering hours before the robbery.

The name of the dead teen, whose identity was confirmed by fingerprints, was not released by the the province's Special Investigations Unit. "There was a confrontation between the officer and a 17-year-old young man, resulting in shots being fired," the SIU said in a release.

OFFICER HAD NO CHOICE

Randle has been designated as a subject of the investigation. The SIU asked anyone who witnessed the shooting to call them at 416-622-1925.

Police Chief Julian Fantino said the officer had no choice.

"He was confronted by a suspect who was armed with a shotgun, which he pointed at the officer," Fantino said in a statement. "Fearing for his life, the officer discharged his service firearm."

Investigators suspect the dead teen was part of a crime gang which may be responsible for the Dec. 29 heist of a Shell station in Ajax. The clerk was stabbed even though he complied with the lone bandit's demands by handing over money.

The three suspects wanted in the New Year's Eve robbery are all described as black, aged 18 to early 20s and wore dark clothing.

The first is 5-foot-9, 180 pounds with a dark complexion.

The second is 5-foot-6, 115 to 120 pounds with a dark complexion.

The third is 5-foot-7 to 5-foot-8 with a medium build.

Now we sit and wait for the vilification of the officer who shot this degenerate thug, instead of refering him to the nearest communty drop in centre. I particularly like the parts that mention he had a "lenghty criminal history" (at only 17!!) and was well known to Durham regional police.  What gets me is they can't publish his name or face, yet that would most definately assist in figuring out his partners.

In other news Toronto Police also arrested a suspect in connection with the murder of the young teen that started this whole thread.  Again HIS identity can't be published to protect HIM. http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1454&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

 

[FastEddy]

This story first appeared Sat, but now there is more info on what happen including the age of the suspect

Now we sit and wait for the vilification of the officer who shot this degenerate thug, instead of refering him to the nearest communty drop in centre. I particularly like the parts that mention he had a "lenghty criminal history" (at only 17!!) and was well known to Durham regional police.   What gets me is they can't publish his name or face, yet that would most definately assist in figuring out his partners.

In other news Toronto Police also arrested a suspect in connection with the murder of the young teen that started this whole thread.   Again HIS identity can't be published to protect HIM. http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1454&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

You got that right 'Hatchet Man'.


Youth Protection Act, NO! , we need a Act to protect us from Youth !

Jan 3rd/05, Montreal North, A 64 year old disabled women using a Walker in her parking lot was attacked from behind, punched and stabbed repeatedly, knocked to the ground and kicked in the face (breaking her nose) by four youths. Who then stole her   purse and car.

They have one 17 year old in custody and expect to arrest the other three.

For all those Bleeding Hearts out there, that think Rehabilitation would be the answer in this case.
Good Luck. These guys have graduated into a league beyond rehabilitation. Punishment and Punishment
befitting the crime.

Once again our so perfect PC, butter would'nt melt in our mouth society will rush to the aid of these poor
young offenders.

To all you Correction Officers out there, we take our Hats off to you, at least on the streets we are
armed and can shoot the basta5ds if they come at us.