Youth violence, and solving the problem

[bossi]

The problem of increasing youth violence is a hot topic in the media these days.
When I wrote my letter to the editor (published in today's Toronto Sun) I certainly wasn't advocating compulsory military service - it's been discussed before, and the consensus continues to be "our Army doesn't need to be further burdened with the dregs of our society".  However, due to the editorial comment/reply, it's worth mentioning here (in order to ensure we've got our act together, and all singing the same song ...)

Having said all of the above, I continue to be frustrated by inappropriate role models for today's youth, when there are so many better choices they could be making ... and better examples they could be following ...

Sun, December 19, 2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's painful to learn about another senseless murder -- another child stolen from family and friends ("'A good kid' killed," Dec. 5). This cycle of violence is not going to stop unless some brave steps are taken.

Why do so many cowards try to prove their manhood with violence? Do they need a knife or a gun in order to compensate for their lack of backbone? Is it because they're so weak, physically and intellectually, that they need to be a bully in order to feel big? Why are they just "hanging out" instead of learning the right lessons about teamwork and fair play?

What role models are they following? Instead of idolizing thugs, gang-bangers, pimps and other spineless scum, there needs to be a concerted campaign to teach what is true courage, and real heroes. The Sun is doing the right thing by telling the story of Canada's Victoria Cross winners. They went overseas to defend Canada, but now there is a menace right here, right now.

This is only the beginning of a battle that must continue to be fought not only in the newspapers, but on television, in movies, in school, on the streets, and at home. It's not "somebody else's job" to teach our children what's right and wrong, it's the duty of every citizen, parent and leader. If we fail, we lose everything.

I didn't go to Afghanistan to see my own country go down the toilet. Let's roll.

Mark Bossi
Scarborough

Editor's response:  "(Hmm, you think maybe military service for some of these kids could be the answer?)"

 

[Steel Badger]

You should see how convicted YO's are treated by the system.


"Its Ok johnny, take your shank out of the nice officer's back, and tell him that you're sorry......."

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

My problem with the YO system is it isn't the real world. My ex-partner[I think you might remember him, Steel ;D] was moonlighting on the side in a YO setting. To make a long story short, scumbag throws good guys spaghetti in his lap so good guy gives backhand......good guy in poop, scumbag back to Nintendo.
Now I'm sorry, I know violence is not always the answer but, sometimes it is...you are sitting in restarant and a stranger drops your meal in your lap,well I believe the real world [and proper] response is a shot to the head.
There must be consequences for actions!

 

[48Highlander]

yeah but in the real world you'd be in "poop" for it too.  it's assault wether you do it in a restaurant or in a jail.  the guards should have the authority to punish the inmates, but there's no reason to be beating them.

 

[Canadian.Trucker]

I'm a young guy only 20, but I've been raised that talking is not always the solution.  There has to be a realization that talking does not solve everything.  Did everyone continue to talk to Hitler even after he invaded France?  Did people think talking was the only way when Iraq invaded Kuwait?  Sometimes people need a good slap upside the head to be shown "you're being a dumbass".  Beatings - no.  Physical repremand - yes.

As well put these kids in an environment where they are actually contributing something.  Such as a work farm or make them serve at a soup kitchen.  The army isn't the place to go, yeah, teach them how to do unarmed combat or field strip a C7 assault rifle.  Sure it could teach them lessons and reform some, but for others it would just teach them better ways to fight.  The military does not need to be tarnished in such a way.

DUCIMUS

 

[48Highlander]

There's alternatives to a slap on the head.  Hitting people generaly teaches them that it's alright to beat others when you know you can get away with it.  Instead of beating them, throm in solitary for a week.  Give 'em physical labour.  Take away privilidges.  Talking and hitting aren't the only way to deal with people.

 

[Slim]

I believe that there comes a point where trying to "talk" your way out of a situation will only lead the "bad guy" to conclude that you are weak and incapable of defending yourself...At about which time he really goes for you!

A big problem with Canada is that the ability to "defend yourself" for the most part, no longer exists.

Take the case of the martial arts guy who turned his attacker aside when he was assaulted. The "bad Guy" happened to get hurt while falling down...and sued his victim successfully. I believe that the police also charged the martial arts guy in that case(I'll try to find the link for all to see...it happened outside the Brunswick House here in Toronto)

Where's the justice in that?

In my opinion if you go after someone with the intent to harm him or her then, as far as I'm concerned, you deserve whatever's coming to you!

Slim :rage:

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
  the guards should have the authority to punish the inmates, but there's no reason to be beating them.

Somebody has watched too many movies.

...48th, don't mean to be talking down to you but untill you have worked in one of our fine establishments, you can never know how totally out to lunch your statements  really are and it can not be explained, you must walk it to know.
Again this is not a slap-down [an apt term here ;D]  just the old " lane" thing
Bruce

 

[48Highlander]

Quote,
  the guards should have the authority to punish the inmates, but there's no reason to be beating them.

Somebody has watched too many movies.

...48th, don't mean to be talking down to you but untill you have worked in one of our fine establishments, you can never know how totally out to lunch your statements  really are and it can not be explained, you must walk it to know.
Again this is not a slap-down [an apt term here ;D]  just the old " lane" thing
Bruce

    Oh I understand what you mean and I'm not offended.  Don't get me wrong, there are similar situations where I'd react the same way, but I'd expect to get in shit for it and I'd take my punishment.  I'd just make sure I beat him a little more severely if I knew I'd get in shit   There's been times where I've come close to beating the shit out of snotty recruits too, but generaly there are better ways of dealing with it.

    Now I know that in juvi there probably is no such thing as solitary, and they can't be forced to do physical labour.  What I mean is that those restrictions need to be removed.  Give the gaurd more power to dish out punishment.  Personaly I think that if he'd had the right to throw that punk in a cold dark room for the next week and feed him nothing but bread and water, the kid wouldn't be trying anything like that any time soon.  If he did, make it a month next time.  He'll get the message sooner or later.  Even the gaurds in club ed aren't allowed to beat prisoners, but that jail has the lowest re-offender rate in all of Canada.

 

[Da_man]

How about boot camps?   All the stuff the military does without C7s or unarmed combat.   Only discipline and PT.




or you can beat them

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

That comes up all the time but the problem is you must have the "fear factor" to work..IE not letting your peers/ parents/ etc. down.  If they don't and won't co-operate, what then?

 

[Canadian.Trucker]

How about boot camps?   All the stuff the military does without C7s or unarmed combat.   Only discipline and PT.

Yeah, and whenever the kids screwed up or were acting up their punishment would be to eat cold IMP's for the rest of the day.  Now that's punishment. :'(

 

[Slim]

I think the problem starts much earlier than we think...And is caused by parents, rather that society at large. Maybe if they were dealt with more harshly when they first stepped out of line it might help. (of course I'm not a parent while many of you are and I welcome everyones thoughts on this statement)

Robert Heinlein's book Starship Troopers delves into this subject and he has some interesting thing to say...Worth a read.

Slim

 

[48Highlander]

I think the problem starts much earlier than we think...And is caused by parents, rather that society at large. Maybe if they were dealt with more harshly when they first stepped out of line it might help. (of course I'm not a parent while many of you are and I welcome everyones thoughts on this statement)

Robert Heinlein's book Starship Troopers delves into this subject and he has some interesting thing to say...Worth a read.

Slim

I think there's a lot of different factors, but parents are the most important influence.  I helped raise my youngest sister and she's the best behaved 11 year old I know.  It's the same thing as training recruits, you have to be firm, fair, and consistent.  She still questions my parents from time to time but when I tell her to do something, it gets done.

 

[Steel Badger]

There's alternatives to a slap on the head.   Hitting people generaly teaches them that it's alright to beat others when you know you can get away with it.   Instead of beating them, throm in solitary for a week.   Give 'em physical labour.   Take away privilidges.   Talking and hitting aren't the only way to deal with people.

48th....
I have to back Bruce on this one......

When you talk of physical labour I have to ask what prison system you are familiar with. Certainly not the Ontario Provincial system.
Very gently i would suggest you experience the reality of institutional life. You assume that line officers (not "guards" by the by, most of us find that to be a condenscending and insulting term) have the authority to institue physical labour etc.....


When you deal with an inmate population for whom violence is the most popular method of communication; sometimes the other methods do NOT work......I found that out myself.......
Also: although i used to say that working in a prison is like teaching on a violent GMT...it isnt...
Its like dealing with a pack of violent overgrown three year olds (why me, wasnt me etc)
In short...Candidates on a GMT WANT to join the Army and understand (however inperfectly) that there is an obligation to follow rules.
There is NO such understanding among inmates...They see their job as to get what they can and thwart the staff....They just don't care about the Ministry of Correctional Services act or regulations. (The MCSA acts like the NDA w/ regards to inmate conduct)
(Note: I am not arguing that all inmates are dirtbags....but the culture inside the joint forces even the most placid of incarcerates to act in a certain way or face the consequences....)

If you want to find out what its like, drop me a line....
I get you a tour of a high Security Detention centre

Cheers

 

[48Highlander]

48th....
I have to back Bruce on this one......
When you talk of physical labour I have to ask what prison system you are familiar with. Certainly not the Ontario Provincial system.
Very gently i would suggest you experience the reality of institutional life. You assume that line officers (not "guards" by the by, most of us find that to be a condenscending and insulting term) have the authority to institue physical labour etc.....

    I apologize, I've only ever known one line officer, and he never corrected me.  However, if I may be allowed to quote myself for a minute:

Now I know that in juvi there probably is no such thing as solitary, and they can't be forced to do physical labour. What I mean is that those restrictions need to be removed. Give the gaurd more power to dish out punishment.

    As you can see, I know that our decade of liberal governments has pretty much tied the hands of those in the penal system to the point where they can't do much more than say "please".  I think that needs to be changed.  Give the line oficers and the wardens (I hope I got that term right) the authority to use physical labour as punishment.  Let them take away privilidges and use solitary confinement as punishment.  Hell, let them use group punishment and let the inmates sort out the "problems" in their midst.  Maybe the government could look at the military penal system and take a few lessons from there.  I don't know exactly what would work because I've never worked in a prison.  It's people like you who should be consulted on those matters.  However, I don't think telling the government "just let us beat some sense into them" is going to go over well, and I don't think it's a viable solution.  Sure if an inmate attacks you, have at 'im, but it's got to be reasonable force used in self defence.  Beating someone for throwing food, while probably pretty satisfying for the line officer in question, is a little excessive.  I mean, if I beat a friggin POW in a warzone I'm supposed to get charged for it, so why should we allow beating in our correctional system at home?

Its like dealing with a pack of violent overgrown three year olds (why me, wasnt me etc)
In short...Candidates on a GMT WANT to join the Army and understand (however inperfectly) that there is an obligation to follow rules.
There is NO such understanding among inmates...They see their job as to get what they can and thwart the staff....They just don't care about the Ministry of Correctional Services act or regulations. (The MCSA acts like the NDA w/ regards to inmate conduct)

    I fully understand that.  That's why in the past I've argued against making military service an alternative to a prison sentence.

If you want to find out what its like, drop me a line....
I get you a tour of a high Security Detention centre

    Thanks!  I've actually considered going into that line of work, but I really don't know the first thing about it.  If my application to the Toronto police force is unsuccessful, I'll deffinitely be asking you for some more info


  p.s.  Is it "penal system" or "correctional system"?  I'm guessing the PR-friendly polliticaly correct "correctional", right?

 

[Steel Badger]

48th


Talk to Monkey as well....He is older and wiser in Guard-Fu than I....


Seriously, wasn't trying to slag you....

But if you DO want a tour, just for interest sake, and dont mind the drive to Hamilton , I can hook you up........


As for beating people.........I have never been forced or ordered to beat anyone....I have, on many many occassions been force to restrain someone to prevent them from harming A) other inmates, B) Staff, C) themselves.....
Since we do not carry weapons inside the insitution (Other than our minds); use of force means physically restraining someone....

And since many our clientel only respect str and violence, talking etc does no good. And if you do select an alternative, well.....

Correctional Officer: Jones......goin your cell....

Inmate: *&*^%-You Copper, Hoop your forehead. Make me.....

It really is that simple.......

 

[PARAMEDIC]

This is what happens when you SPARE the rod and SPOIL the child.

I believe in the old  philosophy as I was brought up on that philosophy and it WORKS.

Dont wanna open a can-o-worms but yes....stuffing your kid in the corner of the room to stare at the wall doesnt really do jack, and any variation to that method. IMHO

The people who were brought up the old school way can attest to the smack upside the head when you screw up works, when explanations as to why you screwed up was not gettting through...

Case and point when I joined school here, I was shocked at the lack of respect for Teachers or the extensive slack given by teachers to students who basically told them to F'off in front of the whole class...you wouldnt dare or entertain the Idea, not because of the consequences ( which was he11 ) but because out of respect for the teacher.

Same thing I noticed at the mall, when a kid told off his mom coz she didn't want to buy him something....I was shocked (mom was laughing as if the kid made a hilarious joke and she actually thought it was cute)

there are tons of examples I can fall back and if I need new ones all I have to do is take a trip down to the mall.

Its a lack of respect because IMHO parents now a days are trying to be a best friend to their kids than being a parent.

Kids need parents not best friends.

 

[winchable]

I don't think we can compare inmates to children, ones a tree ones a seed if that makes sense.

We're talking about smacking a kid upside the head teaches them it's alright to smack someone upside the head if they feel themselves to be in a position of power over them.
In fact I would argue that smacking your kids in anywhere other than their haagen das is just desensitizing them to that kind of thing the same way video games supposedly do.

To name a few methods:
Involving oneself in their kids lives
Talking to their kids (though there is a stage where this will fall flat on it's face)
Being accessable all the time (Who knew eh?)
Being honest
Garnering respect not fear

Discipline can be achieved in children without resorting to hitting them. I'm an example of such, I know many examples.
By that same token I know people who are complete jam rolls whos parents definetly did not spare the rod.
Being a good parent involves discipline but doesn't neccessarily have to involve corporal punishment.

 

[Bograt]

My Grandfather shot and hung a crow upside down from the clothes line that stretched across his garden. He did not have any more problems with crows that year.

There is a fundamental debate that must occur in this country. What is the purpose of Youth Corrections? Is it to punish or to rehabilitate? If it is the latter, then there must be some kind of recourse for victims of YO crime (ie holding them financial responsible for their actions). I watched the news tonight and saw that a YO (SOB) received 82 days for killing a mother and wife while he was in a stolen car joyriding in Halifax. If that was my family, I would be counting the days till his release.

Last week, a young SOB threw a snowball at my car. The snowball hit the window where my daughter would have been sitting. I immediately stopped the car and pursued the little SOB. I humiliated him in front of his 20+ friends. Within a span of 2 minutes he went from being cool for throwing snowballs at traffic, to a snotting and bawling kid. I held him accountable, and made him a symbol to 20 of his friends. He will think twice before doing it again- and so will his friends.