Would Mandatory National Service make the CF stronger?

[FastEddy]

You know why? We also learned discipline from this bunch of men. That was their jobs; and they did a great one.

Let's not turn this into another thread about "the good old days" and women vs men. That was not what my thread was about. It was about discipline. Full stop. We need it back. Desperately.

God Post Armyvern, I suspect that many of the protesters against National Service and Discipline still harbor opinions about Female roles in the CF's. As for DISCIPLINE of course they don't want it back, I imagine maybe some couldn't take it.

I guess the old Maxim doesn't apply in todays modern Cdn. Military "Break them Down, Build them Up".

Its been mentioned here, why or what do we need this vast increase in Service Personnel ?. Well if people and the World expect us to be everywhere, then we need the Bodies, equipment is secondary, its People who get the job done.

Given Canada's population, our Volunteer's will probably never provide the numbers we would like to see, except in a National Mobilization for a World Conflict.

 

[TCBF]

"I guess the old Maxim doesn't apply in todays modern Cdn. Military "Break them Down, Build them Up"."

- I got the impression that was a peacetime blip.  My relatives that went to WW2 talked a lot about discipline, but it was instilled on the PARADE SQUARE by drill commands - not verbal assault (real verbal assault, I mean).  It was also backed by a good stiff set of KR's that allowed orders parades the next day - if in fact not that afternoon.  The worst thing we did was let the lawyers frig up mil law, and without some form of IMMEDIATE low level justice, all the 'getting tough' won't do a damn thing.

But, start with the DRILL.

Tom

 

[armyvern]

- I got the impression that was a peacetime blip.  My relatives that went to WW2 talked a lot about discipline, but it was instilled on the PARADE SQUARE by drill commands - not verbal assault (real verbal assault, I mean).  It was also backed by a good stiff set of KR's that allowed orders parades the next day - if in fact not that afternoon.  The worst thing we did was let the lawyers frig up mil law, and without some form of IMMEDIATE low level justice, all the 'getting tough' won't do a damn thing.

But, start with the DRILL.

Tom

I agree that drill is an imporatant part of discipline. I have had quite a few discussions with my relatives (both male and female) who served in the Miltary during WWII and Korea. The names I was called were not new to them. They actually thought some of them were pretty timid compared to their "day."
I just think of it in the context it was given. A large part of the instructors jobs during basic (both on and off the Parade Square) were to keep us recruits under physical and mental stress, so that we learn to deal with it and react appropriately in stressful circumstances. Everyone has heard the saying "in one ear and out the other...don't let it get to you." Not to whine and cry and yell 'harrassment" or put up my yellow or red card when I thought the instructors were picking on me.
Talking about drill squares...try yelling even 6 feet away (vice the 2 inchs from our faces we used to get with the spit flying) from the face of some recruit these days "what the hell are you doing you BoS, GET OFF MY PARADE SQUARE and I'll deal with you later." These days...after you deal with the recruit, you may also be dealing with whatever write-up they decide to file on the incident regarding you belittleing them and calling them a BoS in front of their peers, thereby hurting their feelings. Poor muffins.

 

[geo]

err.... them muffins must be "stale"

 

[armyvern]

err.... them muffins must be "stale"

Quite possibly!!

And I must point out that I mean absolutely no offense or comparison to Army.ca's very own "muffin"

;D

 

[FastEddy]

"I guess the old Maxim doesn't apply in todays modern Cdn. Military "Break them Down, Build them Up"."

- I got the impression that was a peacetime blip.  My relatives that went to WW2 talked a lot about discipline, but it was instilled on the PARADE SQUARE by drill commands - not verbal assault (real verbal assault, I mean).  It was also backed by a good stiff set of KR's that allowed orders parades the next day - if in fact not that afternoon.  The worst thing we did was let the lawyers frig up mil law, and without some form of IMMEDIATE low level justice, all the 'getting tough' won't do a damn thing.

But, start with the DRILL.

Tom

Yes "Tom" I agree fully, whats the use to get tough if you can't back it up.  But instilling Discipline in a Soldier goes far beyond Parade Square Drill. (yes its a important part). The application of Discipline should apply and effect every aspect of the Soldier indoctrination.

IMO, it all started in 1968 by the Idiots at DNDHQ and the Government who thought they saw a way to save a Buck. Its been all down hill since then.

 

[blacktriangle]

Well with over 1200 ROTP applications for this year with the vast majority of those applying to RMC it must be popular somewhere.

My guidance department is pretty anti military unless you mention RMC, they figure that you're only going there to get a degree and get out...

So actually I'm glad it isn't so popular or more people would likely try to play the system.

Oh, and I'm thankful there isn't conscription, not because I don't want to serve, but because I don't want to serve with all the kids I know...

 

[exsemjingo]

Wait a minute...

Which countries in the Westen World have 2 or 3 year mandatory military service?
-Many European ones.
Now, which countires in the Western world are afraid to send troops to Iraq and Afghanistan?
That's right: many of the ones with mandatory military service!

Conscripts would displace those of us already interested in a military career in our volunteer army.  I would imagine all officers would be RMC graduates (because they are elite, not for any other reason), and very few NC Ms would be offered additional contracts.

Finally, politicians would not think of the military as soldiers, but as citizens.  There would be limited international missions, and few deployment oppertunities.

A Volunteer Army is a Professional, Effective Army.  Conscription is for total wartime only.

 

[TCBF]

"Actually I have always thought that every screened and eligible Canadian from 18-21 should serve in the military and then carry on with post-secondary education after that."

- Hey, lets apply that to all RMC Cadets!  Let's have them do a stint in the military first, then we only need to send the useful ones to RMC.  Save us millions of dollars on Phase 1, 2 and 3 Cbt A.

Tom

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Wait a minute...

Which countries in the Westen World have 2 or 3 year mandatory military service?
-Many European ones.
Now, which countires in the Western world are afraid to send troops to Iraq and Afghanistan?

Bullshit; just because a country doesn't employ troops it doesn't imply cowardice on a national scale, simply differing priorities. How does one even apply cowardice on a national scale in any event? You just invalidated your entire post with that.

 

[clasper]

Living and working in France, I've had the opportunity to discuss their national service with many of my colleagues.  Most people had to serve a year in the military, although the rich or well-educated could do a two-week basic, followed by a year working for a French national company overseas, or some other area of vital national interest (a colleague worked for a year in a government nuclear physics lab).

Most people I've talked to found that their time was completely wasted, and don't look fondly back on their time in the military.  The younger people who weren't involved (the program was phased out in the late 90's) are very grateful that they didn't have to bother.  When this topic comes up for discussion, I normally ask people how they think conscripts affect the effectiveness of the French military when deployed abroad.  One guy just looked at me like I asked him to recite Shakespeare in Swahili.  Most people say one really had very little effect on the other, since they were essentially two different armies- the professional one that the government actually did something with, and the social engineering project. 

The instructors and NCO's for the conscripts came from the professional army, but they mostly resented their time there, or treated it like a holiday (for a Canadian context some people may be more familiar with, imagine a crusty bigoted old reg force WO posted to a reserve regiment, with the additional wrinkle that all of the prejudices he has against the reserves are actually true- it wouldn't be a worthwhile experience for the WO or for the soldiers).

While the conscripts may not have adversely affected the effectiveness of the regular army, they were certainly a drain on the resources of the government.  Based on the small sample size and unscientific polls I've conducted, I'd say that the social engineering project of conscription was a failure in France.  The arguments for such a project are normally to instill our youth with discipline, citizenship, knowledge of military and world affairs, etc.  Like every other society, some people have these things (with or without prior military service), and some don't, but I don't see a higher proportion of these qualities in French men (or former conscripts of other nationalities that I've talked to).

 

[FastEddy]

I agree that drill is an imporatant part of discipline. I have had quite a few discussions with my relatives (both male and female) who served in the Miltary during WWII and Korea. The names I was called were not new to them. They actually thought some of them were pretty timid compared to their "day."
I just think of it in the context it was given. A large part of the instructors jobs during basic (both on and off the Parade Square) were to keep us recruits under physical and mental stress, so that we learn to deal with it and react appropriately in stressful circumstances. Everyone has heard the saying "in one ear and out the other...don't let it get to you." Not to whine and cry and yell 'harrassment" or put up my yellow or red card when I thought the instructors were picking on me.
Talking about drill squares...try yelling even 6 feet away (vice the 2 inchs from our faces we used to get with the spit flying) from the face of some recruit these days "what the hell are you doing you BoS, GET OFF MY PARADE SQUARE and I'll deal with you later." These days...after you deal with the recruit, you may also be dealing with whatever write-up they decide to file on the incident regarding you belittleing them and calling them a BoS in front of their peers, thereby hurting their feelings. Poor muffins.

ArmyVern, you elaborate on the in your face method which you associate with part of the application of the discipline part. But Tom disagrees with you that its not necessary. I agree that it is part of instilling discipline (in your face) along with it use on inspections, kit, deportment, dress and the classroom. I've had VFW's also tell me that they were more afraid of their RSM, than combat. From my experiences, I was hesitant even approaching him in the Mess.

Drill really only instills psychical co-ordination (on its own), how its applied is what makes the difference.

But !, unless theres some really big changes, we're not going to see those days again.

Cheers.

 

[FastEddy]

Living and working in France, I've had the opportunity to discuss their national service with many of my colleagues.  Most people had to serve a year in the military, although the rich or well-educated could do a two-week basic, followed by a year working for a French national company overseas, or some other area of vital national interest (a colleague worked for a year in a government nuclear physics lab).

Maybe France is not the best  Example you could have researched.

 

[clasper]

Just happens to be where I live...

I've also talked to some Scandinavians about their experiences (although not as many), and they don't see it as a great benefit either.

 

[FastEddy]

Just happens to be where I live...

I've also talked to some Scandinavians about their experiences (although not as many), and they don't see it as a great benefit either.

Great !, Have a nice day.

 

[geo]

any person forced to do something will tend to look back upon his "doing time" year(s) with a jaundiced eye.

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, and conscription gives you lots of those.  Esprit de corps is impossible if you have a group where the majority attitude is that of a prison chain gang.  Our armed forces needs warriors, skilled technicians, motivated, self directing overachievers, not a bunch of sad sorry MoFo's who are doing their best to do SFA.  The absolute best way for the NDP to eviscerate the CF and assure that all war fighting potential is taken away, would be to give us conscription.  Even in wartime, conscription did the CF no favours.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

any person forced to do something will tend to look back upon his "doing time" year(s) with a jaundiced eye.

I don't think this is true.  Most German soldiers in the Second World War were conscripts, but the ones I've talked to were all proud of their service - even despite the criminal acts the regime had committed and to which they were (supposedly) unwitting accomplices.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, and conscription gives you lots of those.  Esprit de corps is impossible if you have a group where the majority attitude is that of a prison chain gang.  Our armed forces needs warriors, skilled technicians, motivated, self directing overachievers, not a bunch of sad sorry MoFo's who are doing their best to do SFA.  The absolute best way for the NDP to eviscerate the CF and assure that all war fighting potential is taken away, would be to give us conscription.  Even in wartime, conscription did the CF no favours.

You presume that all draftees are unwilling; some just need to be compelled to serve and after drafted would be quite useful, perhaps even happy.  Your last sentence is inaccurate as well; the manpower crunch (partially self-imposed) in the Second World War required us to get a lot of mileage out of NRMA men - they were vital for the defence of Canada, as evidenced by their employment in the Aleutians and at home in coastal garrisons. A few thousand were also employed in Europe. Regardless of whether or not poor planning resulted in their need, needed they were, and used they were. If you have evidence that not a single one served with honour, distinction, or pride, you should present it here.

 

[Infanteer]

I think the distinction needs to between conscription during a national emergency (ie: mobilization for war) and conscription as social engineering during peacetime.

While stating that all conscripts are wasters is a sweeping generalization, I'd prefer neither for the reasons stated above.  However, in the former case, I could see the necessity.  The latter is useless and probably antithetical in our liberal democratic society.