The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged

[George Wallace]

Pardon me for taking the Vet's side of this, I guess i feel the lack of respect is a little bit much for people who take thier freedom and liberties without thinking why and how they got them. I guess when i created the thread i should have said "Vet Disrespected by HB Co."

Cheers

Well!  Excuse us for pointing out some of the flaws in your ideas after you made several other posts. 

 

[Strike]

Snafu, I think we will agree that vets fought to get and keep the freedoms we can enjoy day to day.  It's ones freedom to refuse to have vet soliciting on their premises.  Like it or not, this is for what they fought and we fight.  Being a vet or a service person doesn't give him/her any special right as if he/she is above others.

And I would suspect that there are many vets that would agree with this sentiment. 

 

[TCBF]

...All that said, though, I also agree that any fundraising organization probably knows better than to send people off soliciting funds in privately-owned-and-managed buildings without checking first.  How would a Legion feel about an impromptu, unannounced fundraiser dropping by to collect money in the facility without asking permission?  I've done tag sales in Cadets, and we NEVER went into a mall without either 1)  being told permission had been obtained, or 2)  speaking to management and getting an OK.

- Yet, this happens EVERY year and it is still news. One might suspect that the RCL relishes the free advertising!

 

[P2CT]

Having read the article, I feel bad that the gentelman was asked to leave the store. I agree with some, that just because one is wearing the Legion beret or some form of ex forces headgear, medals, and various pins doesn't mean anything to the average Canadian Civie. He could be a fraud artist, but at his age, common sence should mean something. Fraud is something more common to many of the young and lazy generation of today. I agree that Retired Military Members should have photo  ID Cards, but , DND did not issue Photo ID cards to retirees in the 1940's through to 1988 when I retired. Do they do so now? It used to be that one could trust the average Joe Public. You sure as heck can't trust the scam artists out there now. Incidentaly, I thought the HUDSON BAY CO. was sold to a Yank billionaire from South Carolina Mr. Jerry Zucker around 2005. One would think that a US Firm would honour vets. They were doing so when it wasn't fashionable to do so in Canada, no more than 10 years ago. You might note that the Rep for the Hudson Bay Co. has a very difficult name to pronounce. I doubt that any of his forefathers lived in Canada in the 1940's or 1950's. In fact I could wager that none of the Recent Canadian members of his family ever served in Canada's Forces. You have not seen names like that in the news covering Canadian Dead or Injured so far. NOT ONE!!!!! They only come here to reap the benefits that veterans have fought for and demand their rights.

 

[Strike]

Fraud is something more common to many of the young and lazy generation of today.

Not so.  There are more than a few seniors that have been "outed" as being frauds with their claims of being vets.  Do a google search to see.  It's more revalent than you would like to believe.

You might note that the Rep for the Hudson Bay Co. has a very difficult name to pronounce. I doubt that any of his forefathers lived in Canada in the 1940's or 1950's. In fact I could wager that none of the Recent Canadian members of his family ever served in Canada's Forces. You have not seen names like that in the news covering Canadian Dead or Injured so far. NOT ONE!!!!! They only come here to reap the benefits that veterans have fought for and demand their rights.

What does someone's familial background have to do with anything?  I find your comments rude, overly righteous, and bordering on racism.  I do not know you and therefore will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are just typing while angry.

 

[GDawg]

Having read the article, I feel bad that the gentelman was asked to leave the store. I agree with some, that just because one is wearing the Legion beret or some form of ex forces headgear, medals, and various pins doesn't mean anything to the average Canadian Civie. He could be a fraud artist, but at his age, common sence should mean something. Fraud is something more common to many of the young and lazy generation of today. I agree that Retired Military Members should have photo  ID Cards, but , DND did not issue Photo ID cards to retirees in the 1940's through to 1988 when I retired. Do they do so now? It used to be that one could trust the average Joe Public. You sure as heck can't trust the scam artists out there now. Incidentaly, I thought the HUDSON BAY CO. was sold to a Yank billionaire from South Carolina Mr. Jerry Zucker around 2005. One would think that a US Firm would honour vets. They were doing so when it wasn't fashionable to do so in Canada, no more than 10 years ago. You might note that the Rep for the Hudson Bay Co. has a very difficult name to pronounce. I doubt that any of his forefathers lived in Canada in the 1940's or 1950's. In fact I could wager that none of the Recent Canadian members of his family ever served in Canada's Forces. You have not seen names like that in the news covering Canadian Dead or Injured so far. NOT ONE!!!!! They only come here to reap the benefits that veterans have fought for and demand their rights.

This happens every year, and people respond to the "outrage" with abject idiocy as per above.

They say that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions and I know alot of civilians have their hearts in the right places but they need to stop, take a deep breath, and think about whether or not what they are doing/saying is sensible and actually helping vets/serving members.

 

[1feral1]

Holy crap!

What ever happened to something called common sense?

Shakes head


OWDU

 

[geo]

IMHO, it is just common sense and GOOD MANNERS to go see the local manager/supervisor BEFORE setting up shop.

No one should think he has a right to set up shop in a store or commercial establishment - because it's always been done that way.

I have always taken this position & have been well served by it.

Snafubar.... relax, breathe, live life a couple of years.... and we'll talk again

 

[Fishbone Jones]

This happens every year, and people respond to the "outrage" with abject idiocy as per above.

......and we go through all the arguments, discussions and points of view here, every year, when someone posts that a Vet was tossed from some facility.  : :boring:

 

[Snafu-Bar]

......and we go through all the arguments, discussions and points of view here, every year, when someone posts that a Vet was tossed from some facility.  : :boring:

It just goes to show that people haven't learned respect when it comes to these people. Vets deserve better!


Cheers.

 

[xena]

Vets deserve better!

And since I am a vet (since they changed the definition - which I don't necessarily agree with, but...) I can say "Vets should know better" too.  Someone has said that vets should have the right to go where ever they please in this country.  Really?  If a vet breaks into your home, is that okay because he or she is a vet?

Of course not!  Private property is private property.  Retail stores, malls and office buildings are private property just as much as residential homes - get it yet?  Now, they are intended for public access which residential homes are not, but that still doesn't negate the fact that property owners have the right to restrict access - meaning they can kick you off their property for no other reason than they own it and you don't.

Vets, usually through the various RCL branches, almost always ask for permission before attempting to solicit on private property.  When they haven't, it's been the fault of the Legion branch for not organising things properly.

Now, the reason that the permission needs to be done is to stop con-artists and other Walter Mitty type characters from pretending to be something they are not, and stealing those donations from the Poppy Fund.  The vets who do this fundraising generally understand why these safeguards have to be in place.

And for what it's worth, my experience with many property management companys is that they really don't like security guards who think for themselves.  They want to employ people who will blindly do what they are told, and they "remove" guards who will question their (sometimes bordeline, sometimes overtly) illegal orders.

Edited because I'm a lousy formatter.  D'Oh!

 

[Jarnhamar]

I agree with recceguy

Every year it's the same story, a Vet is outraged over this or that.

All respect to the vets-my grandfather was shot by a german plane on the beaches of Normandy.

But honestly. this guy didn't have a memo or permission, apparently, to be doing what he was doing so security removed him.  It's unfortunate yes but does being a vet mean someone can skirt propriety, tresspassing etc.. rules?

What of the person was one of those "I'm deaf and mute by donating $5 for this how to speak sigh language cards I photocopied at staples you're helping me survive the mean streets of Ottawa" people?
Should a security guard let those people ignore company rules and policies because of their situation?

Like I said, respect for vets but like recceguy said, every year it's the same thing.   Hell do a search on army.ca and you'll find stories like this every year. "Vets Outaged!"

 

[geo]

It just goes to show that people haven't learned respect
Cheers.

Snafu... that comment cuts both ways.
The vet who intends to set up shop should introduce himself to the local manager
(get permission to use the local washroom facilities, etc)

 

[rwgill]

It just goes to show that people haven't learned respect when it comes to these people. Vets deserve better!


Cheers.

I will only weigh in on this as I am a business owner.

If you want to solicit anything in my business, you had better ask first!  I throw out all sorts of people, all sorts of causes because people just set up shop, without asking.  It's a respect issue with me.

That said, I am a member of the Legion and I proudly have a poppy box on my counter and gladly throw my loose change into it.

 

[1feral1]

I will only weigh in on this as I am a business owner.

If you want to solicit anything in my business, you had better ask first!  I throw out all sorts of people, all sorts of causes because people just set up shop, without asking.  It's a respect issue with me.

So if a 85 yr old WWII Vet was selling poppies in your foyer, would you have him removed??

If I was a shop owner, and if he did not ask permission, it wouldn't matter.

To me, poppies are a Canadian icon. As far as I am concered, he's earned his permission at Dieppe or Normandy. Ortona maybe?

Now on the flip side in this PC Canada, could this have been a logistics issue, say long in advance, a letter sent out by the Legion to The Bay (and other Canadian national retailers) for example, asking permission. If this was not done, then maybe it should. Perhaps Legion Command is at fault???

Seems this entire issue has been brought up only since this new war, as in my entire life I had never heard of such nonsense. It was unheard of in the 35 yrs I spent in Canada.

There is plenty of anti-war sentiment these days, and taking it out of WWII vets, who paved the way for our future and Canada for what is is today is un-Canadian in my opinion.

OWDU


Regards,

OWDU

 

[neilinkorea]

From a business' point of view, I think it is a fairness issue.  Of course everyone thinks Vets are great and are thankful for their sacrifices.  Breast Cancer is awful too.  MS, CNIB, Make A Wish Foundation, etc are all worthy causes.  What is a company to do, set up permenant solication stations for each of these charities in their facilities?  If you say yes to one, you have to say yes to all.  So if a company decides no soliciting, that means no soliciting.  I think that in itself is a tribute to the men who served.  They fought for a way of life based on the rule of law, where the rules apply equally to all citizens and shouldn't be changed for a certain sector of society.  Our way of life may not always seem fair, but sometimes being unfair to one group ensures fairness for all others.

 

[ENGINEERS WIFE]

My 2 cents,

Permission should be asked and granted before setting up, even for selling of poppies.  Having said that, I cannot understand why any Canadian would have issue with the vets and poppies.

 

[Snafu-Bar]

From a business' point of view, I think it is a fairness issue.  Of course everyone thinks Vets are great and are thankful for their sacrifices.  Breast Cancer is awful too.  MS, CNIB, Make A Wish Foundation, etc are all worthy causes.  What is a company to do, set up permenant solication stations for each of these charities in their facilities?  If you say yes to one, you have to say yes to all.  So if a company decides no soliciting, that means no soliciting.  I think that in itself is a tribute to the men who served.  They fought for a way of life based on the rule of law, where the rules apply equally to all citizens and shouldn't be changed for a certain sector of society.  Our way of life may not always seem fair, but sometimes being unfair to one group ensures fairness for all others.

The freedoms they fought for (ww1 and ww2) have dwindled greatly over time. Just look at the human rights movement and all the mess it's leaving in it's wake. It's no where NEAR as free as it used to be, and the people who fought to win those freedoms are being Disrespected now becuase of people taking those freeedoms and twisiting them into control measures that infringe on freedom.

Freedom.... the right to do whatever you want when no one is there to catch you and say your doing something illegal!
Freedom... the right to go anywhere you please...as long as it's your own property or you have papers or permission permitting you to do so!

Cheers.

 

[rwgill]

So if a 85 yr old WWII Vet was selling poppies in your foyer, would you have him removed??

I don't care who it is, ask permission first.  Thankfully this has (a vet) has not happened.  It's a small community and all of the local vets know me, but they always ask first.  They ask all of the businesses first and get to know the owners.  It's called respect and its a two way street.

 

[neilinkorea]

The freedoms they fought for (ww1 and ww2) have dwindled greatly over time. Just look at the human rights movement and all the mess it's leaving in it's wake. It's no where NEAR as free as it used to be, and the people who fought to win those freedoms are being Disrespected now becuase of people taking those freeedoms and twisiting them into control measures that infringe on freedom.

Freedom.... the right to do whatever you want when no one is there to catch you and say your doing something illegal!
Freedom... the right to go anywhere you please...as long as it's your own property or you have papers or permission permitting you to do so!

Cheers.

I was careful to say rule of law, not freedom.  Freedom is such an abstract and relative term that it can never exist in a form that is agreeable to all.  That is why we have representative democracy and freedom becomes what the majority of the voting public wants it to be at any given time.  However, those who fight for it are no more entitled to it than the average citizen.