The "Occupy" Movement

[ArmyRick]

I was in a seminar (not for profit organization) and I have been learning about the current economic trends of today and the past, including the difference in generations and what drove the economies. Its really good to learn this stuff, especially for myself as a fairly new class A reservist who has just joined a PRes unit a few months ago.

One of my opinions I have formed based on all of this is that the economy must always be fluent as technology and demands change. Basically what worked in 1970, doesn't work in 2011. Anyways I am rather new at this game so I will not venture too far outside my lanes (narrow at this point).

One goal I wanted to make was for people (especially those in uniform who have a steady and decent pay cheque) to look at the other side of the story. One sided stories don't work out too well. Again, I do not excuse civil disobedience.

For people who simply say "That's the way it is..." or something similar, I again, ask you. What would you do today if the CF released you completely and you had no means to support yourself?

 

[ballz]

Good post Rick. I definitely think you're right when you say people with full-time employment for 3-25 years don't understand. I could be guilty of that having lived in Fort McMurray, but I've also lived in Newfoundland during it's shittiest years.

No, I cannot fault you with your points, however, it's mostly optics.  What most of us may see ( and I am guilty of it ) is the dirty smelly hippies, the it's Woodstock still hippies or the young trouble makers.  Maybe they are the most vocal and attention grabbing of the lot.  But when I see them, I tune out.  Period.  They are always bitching about every friggin thing and I am sick to death of hearing/seeing their yelps as they love to demonstrate at the drop of the hat ala "The boy who cried Wolf".

I agree the world is not fair.  The rich keep getting richer and the poor poorer.  This has I suspect always been the trend overall (with maybe the exception for the Black Plague years when things were evened out mostly for the survivors) and I don't see this changing frankly.  I don't like the corporate greed out there either, but they hold the cards and have the standing as the house or city hall.  The house usually wins, and you rarely successfully fight city hall.

Until the "occupy" folks get their collective crap together, have some coherent points to make to the rest of us by respectable looking folks I fear most of us will continue to tune out.

That's a pretty depressing viewpoint. I am glad you're fairly alone in your disenchantment. Canada and the US are still two democratic society's after all.

The growing disparity of wealth has not always been the trend. If you look at the difference at the start of the industrial revolution, basically the birth of capitalism, the disparity was much worse. It improved drastically through the power of the people (formation of unions and collective bargaining, etc). More importantly (for the US), the mobility of wealth was always there when they became a country. Anybody could go from broke to riches in America (unless you were black and living in the south :-\). That is quickly becoming obsolete.

Fortunately, for us in Canada, it's not even near obsolete. I've seen a lot of broke Newfies, my dad being one of them, move to Alberta and become rich. Everybody in Canada has these opportunities. I'm not so sure they do in the US, and those opportunities are certainly disappearing quickly.

Having actually gone to the Occupy Vancouver site a few times, I can say that a number of the people there are intelligent, with coherent concerns about wealth disparity, corporate influence on government, affordability of life essentials, etc.

If they're so intelligent, why are they having these problems in Canada and occupying Vancouver? We don't have any of those problems. Quite frankly, I just don't buy the Occupy movement in Canada at all. I really do think it is a bunch of people jumping on a bandwagon.



I heard an interesting point raised on Bill Maher last Friday between Bill and this conservative dude. Bill was commenting on the crazy proportion of people doing arts programs in the US, and the conservative dude said (and I assume he's not pulling it out of his rear) "There is a growing number of job vacancies in certain parts of the US, but no one with the right skills or education to fill them, so they're not considered jobs being 'created' since no one is being hired."

 

[Fishbone Jones]

For people who simply say "That's the way it is..." or something similar, I again, ask you. What would you do today if the CF released you completely and you had no means to support yourself?

The same thing I did years ago when I foolishly released. I scrabbled at low paying jobs and scraped my way into a higher education. I then spent lots of time going from one job to another slightly better job, til 20 years later I'm doing something that can now, finally, afford me some disposable income.

Disposable income that 'I' worked for. For use by 'ME'. For what 'I' want.

Not for something some self entitled little puke, too lazy to do menial labour, wants me to give him, at 'MY' expense.

There's lots of work out there. I see it daily in my rounds. But it's being done by Mexicans, Taiwanese and Jamaican workers because little Johnny thinks it's demeaning to do it and he'd rather sit back while we all kvetch and stare at our navels feeling sorry for him.

Not me. Not one red cent.

Go to your local 'Occupy' camp and give them your money if you want.

The needy people I know, that get a hand from me, are home in bed because they have to get up and walk to work before the sun is up tomorrow.

 

[Journeyman]

Anybody could go from broke to riches in America...

:nod:  Michael Jackson was born a poor black boy, and died a rich white woman.

 

[ArmyRick]

No, there is NOT lots of jobs out there. Leave any large Ontario City belt and look for a job. Even a part time job. In my town Collingwood, for every menial job that becomes available on average about 200 people apply (my sources are from employment Ontario, can't find the exact reference) and the ages between 25-40. For unionized, decent paying jobs in this end of Simcoe county, about 5,000 people apply.

I would not be so quick to paint everybody that's not employed as just a lazy welfare collecting bum. Thats a pretty quick assessment your making there, recceguy.

We are just finally hitting a point now (according to services Canada) where employment available is slightly higher than people seeking jobs. However that does not include seasonal jobs, temporary jobs, contract work, etc.

My main point is don't be so damn quick to label everybody at these protest as grass smoking lazy bums. 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Six of one, half dozen of the other. Your stats and opinions are no better than mine.

Ergo, don't be so quick to label all those out of work as someone that really wants a job but can't find it. Pretty broad brush yourself.

Your opinion has no more lock on the conversation than mine.

There may not be lots of overpaid, union jobs out there for uneducated assembly workers, but there is lots of work out there none the less. I don't use statistics and numbers on paper. I don't go on what some journalist says or what some gov't stats say. Remember 'Lies, damn lies and statistics'

I visit employers every day. I know their concerns, I know their problems getting help. I see their new offshore workers every day because they can't get Canadians to do the work.

I have personal experience with the problem. I can afford to give an informed opinion on the subject.

But your mind is made up. We'll just agree to disagree.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

In my town Collingwood 

But doesn't that go back to what Edward said a while ago,...people used to move for jobs, now they want the Govt. to bring the jobs to them.

 

[Nemo888]

I t would have been nice not to have been screwed by the New Veterans Charter in 2005. Many soldiers got swept under the rug by an uncaring and penny pinching bureaucracy. They were not "lazy hippies".  Many Canadians have similar stories in this new millenia. That is why the occupy movement resonates. People feel that the work hard and get ahead myth is a lie corporations tell people to keep them in line. Canada is not the land of opportunity it was 40 years ago. Most of my good fortune is just that, luck.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I t would have been nice not to have been screwed by the New Veterans Charter in 2005. Many soldiers got swept under the rug by an uncaring and penny pinching bureaucracy. They were not "lazy hippies".  Many Canadians have similar stories in this new millenia. That is why the occupy movement resonates. People feel that the work hard and get ahead myth is a lie corporations tell people to keep them in line. Canada is not the land of opportunity it was 40 years ago. Most of my good fortune is just that, luck.

Thanks for towing your party line.

Not everyone is saying all involved out there are just lazy hippies. Unlike your side, most of us are just more grounded in fact than that.

It doesn't resonate with a majority, no matter what the Occupiers state about their 99%. If it did, we'd have thousands out there, everywhere. Including people that would give up their jobs to participate. Your blanket statements are neither true or effective when looked at.

Working hard, saving and LIVING WITHIN YOUR MEANS is what gets you ahead.

I prefer to make my own luck, and have, thank you very much. And my luck is to costly too give it away to someone who refuses to even try make some of his own.

Basing anything of signifigance on luck is ludicrous anyway as it doesn't exist in a real world. Circumstances are what you make them.

But again, given your track record, we won't change each others minds, so I'll leave you to fight the revolution within yours.

 

[ArmyRick]

recceguy,

You didn't really read my post, end story. I did not say I was was pro or anti occupy movement. I made up my mind did I? What exactly was my mind? I ASKED people to weigh both sides of the story. Both sides. I am glad your not a judge!!!

Some points to consider. There is a huge concern for Canada's economy. Industry will probably continue to shrink and service jobs will likely grow. Yes there are lazy people out there but there are also people very much willing to work hard.

Just pick and move, huh? Its that easy? Take a 30 something Canadian with wife and kids and tell him to find the money to pack up and move. That is expensive and with so many jobs not being that stable, a risky move. In case your wondering, the unemployed range from 20s to 60s in age.

Here is what I am guessing (rubbing my crystal ball), these protest (today occupy) will probably not go away anytime soon. What extremes will it go to in the future?

I applaud Nemo888 for saying it right, Canada is not the land it was 40 years ago.

Again, I ask people to weigh in both sides of the story.

What would happen if next year the Federal Government said in three years the Armed Forces must be reduced to 30,000 Reg from what is today? About 68,000? Put the shoe on your foot and imagine the scenario that way. It would be frightening to many, most certainly upsetting to most or all in the CF and it would compound into other problems. However imagine if this did happen and then some politician standing there beaming about how he saved XX Billions of tax payer money in defence spending. I guarantee you some of those unemployed former CF members would protest some how, some where.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

AR,

I have looked at both sides. I've just given my perspective. That's all it is. I can't help if it doesn't fit into your nice little box of what you want to hear.

Thousands and thousands of people and families have pulled up stakes from everywhere in Canada, in the last ten years and moved west to, successfully, I might add, gain good paying employment. My daughter went from $9.00\ hr, in Ontario, as a machinist to $33\ hr doing the same in Edmonton. She's been there 3 years. And people are still going there and being employed today. The work is there, they need to get out of their comfort zone and go get it.

Unless you can base your CF scenario on some sort of past decision or fact, it's nothing more than sensationalistic hyperbole and the dictionary version of a straw man. It only serves to pull the conversation off on a meaningless tangent. Perhaps you can find a true, real and meaningful example. Besides, I guess you didn't really read my post either, as I explained your scenario, from my real and personal experience. Only difference is I released on my own as opposed to getting terminated from the military.

Anyway, I don't think I have much more to say than I have and find no need to further defend what I've put in black and white. I won't lose sleep if people disagree with me.

 

[Brad Sallows]

It is difficult to judge unemployment unless you have experienced it or been imminently threatened by it.

For my part, I think entirely too much of the economy is soaked up to provide good middle class incomes to bureaucrats.  Not enough of the money in circulation is being freely used by people to buy exactly what they want, with the result that the "velocity" of money is reduced.

 

[Hammer Sandwich]

...snip...Just pick and move, huh? Its that easy? Take a 30 something Canadian with wife and kids and tell him to find the money to pack up and move. That is expensive and with so many jobs not being that stable, a risky move...snip...

This I agree with, and understand.
I'm a "30 something Canadian with wife and kids ".

I have a job thay pays alright...(somewhere around Cpl II pay, for reference), but it's a nowhere job.

I have the smarts to go into University, and get a degree....enabling me to progress even further.
I know it's one of the only investments that will ever pay, but there ain't no cash to get there.

I have a mortgage.....one car to pay for, (the other one's paid) private school for the kid, (because the wife works there, and tuition's cheaper than before and after school care).....and a wife that nets a $700 paycheque.....

I could get a massive student loan to go to school, sure.....but what about providing for my family for that four years?

WHERE THE FUCK IS THE MONEY SUPPOSED TO COME FROM?!?!?!?


This is why I think the "just go to school" argument is such a ridiculous, bullshit line.

 

[ballz]

Unless you can base your CF scenario on some sort of past decision or fact, it's nothing more than sensationalistic hyperbole and the dictionary version of a straw man.

I was going to comment earlier on what you were staying about statistics, because it bothers me quite a bit that you would state that AR's stats aren't worth more than yours, yet in the same post mention you refuse to provide any. I find that extremely rich that you ask that (historical evidence or facts) of someone, yet refuse to provide any statistics or even consider the ones put in front you.

 

[Hammer Sandwich]

But doesn't that go back to what Edward said a while ago,...people used to move for jobs, now they want the Govt. to bring the jobs to them.

Or, maybe, people are wondering why their respective Provincial Governments have told them to "hold on....we'll get some jobs for ya.....Don't go to Alberta just yet".

Just sayin'

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

ballz,........I know what RG does for a living and just let me say that he visits worksites, sometimes more than a couple, every single day.

I've even called him to visit mine when there was a problem but alas, he works in a different region. If he says he knows what employers are saying than I, for one, put stock in what he is saying.

My 2 cents.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

This I agree with, and understand.
I'm a "30 something Canadian with wife and kids ".

I have a job that pays alright...(somewhere around Cpl II pay, for reference), but it's a nowhere job.

I have the smarts to go into University, and get a degree....enabling me to progress even further.
I know it's one of the only investments that will ever pay, but there ain't no cash to get there.

I have a mortgage.....one car to pay for, (the other one's paid) private school for the kid, (because the wife works there, and tuition's cheaper than before and after school care).....and a wife that nets a $700 paycheque.....

I could get a massive student loan to go to school, sure.....but what about providing for my family for that four years?

WHERE THE FUCK IS THE MONEY SUPPOSED TO COME FROM?!?!?!?


This is why I think the "just go to school" argument is such a ridiculous, bullshit line.

I'm not going to fault your judgments. Those are yours.

You set your priorities and how you would handle them. You placed family and other possessions ahead of your education.

That was your conscious decision(s).

You now have to decide how you are going to hit the reset button, how important that new education fits into your future and what you need to sacrifice to get there.

Sitting there, yelling 'Show me the money' ain't going to do it for you. No one is beholden to give you a penny. You have to sit down with your wife and decide where you want to be in ten years, what you are willing to sacrifice and how you're going to get there.

Everything is finite. Very few people on the face of the earth can have everything they want. The rest of us just decide what will make us sleep comfortably having what we can get within our means.

 

[ballz]

ballz,........I know what RG does for a living and just let me say that he visits worksites, sometimes more than a couple, every single day.

I've even called him to visit mine when there was a problem but alas, he works in a different region. If he says he knows what employers are saying than I, for one, put stock in what he is saying.

My 2 cents.

On this particular issue, I am not disagreeing with him. But I am disagreeing with the way he's debating, and this is not an isolated event. I don't think it's in good faith to just brush off other people's evidence/statistics as "lies" and consider your own perspective to trump facts.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I was going to comment earlier on what you were staying about statistics, because it bothers me quite a bit that you would state that AR's stats aren't worth more than yours, yet in the same post mention you refuse to provide any. I find that extremely rich that you ask that (historical evidence or facts) of someone, yet refuse to provide any statistics or even consider the ones put in front you.

My facts come from an intimate daily interaction with Canadian employers. From mom and pop gas stations that employ a couple of people to multi national conglomerates that employ many thousands in one complex. I'm in them every day and I deal with the people both at the very top in the corner offices to the new hire on the floor.

I know of what I speak. I really don't care if you believe what I say or not, but my info isn't put together by some disconnected statistician thousands of miles away, that makes a report garnered from selective questions based on the answer they want to give. My information is topical, timely and right from the horse's mouth(s).

 

[Hammer Sandwich]

I'm not going to fault your judgments. Those are yours.

You set your priorities and how you would handle them. You placed family and other possessions ahead of your education.

Not really.....I was uneducated before I decided to start a family....As far as posessions...we have few.  I'm writing this post on a laptop my parents decided to give to us, instead of recycling, or giving away.  Our house is a 1500 square foot mansion, (that's upstairs, and downstairs), that we chose based on what we could afford, and possible resale in the future. The car we still make payments on is a 2008 cobalt, that we snagged for almost half-price, because we watched for when the car market took a big shit, and capitaiized on it. Our other, "paid for" car is a 2005 Corolla, sold to us by my co-worker for a song.....I perform all routine maintenance.

That was your conscious decision(s).

Not really.....I was born stupid (see above), and have ended up in a position where I did not have the luxury of "setting my priorities".

You now have to decide how you are going to hit the reset button, how important that new education fits into your future and what you need to sacrifice to get there.

Sitting there, yelling 'Show me the money' ain't going to do it for you. No one is beholden to give you a penny. You have to sit down with your wife and decide where you want to be in ten years, what you are willing to sacrifice and how you're going to get there.

-And we don't see it that way...at all. My wife and I work really hard just to maintain shittiness.
We don't want, (or feel we deserve) handouts....that's why the "occupy" system is so friggin' stupid.

Everything is finite. Very few people on the face of the earth can have everything they want. The rest of us just decide what will make us sleep comfortably having what we can get within our means.

We're in our means....well within our means.
I'm a friggin' master of EXCEL...and we have a budget so tight....it would embarras a nun's asshole.
(If required, I'll post a screencap)
We know how, where, and when to spend money, and we follow through.

We went out for a family dinner at Swiss Chalet the other month.....that was in "the sheet"....we planned ahead....executed, and remained in our target spending allowance.