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The "Occupy" Movement

ballz said:
That's a pretty depressing viewpoint. I am glad you're fairly alone in your disenchantment. Canada and the US are still two democratic society's after all.
Reality, as one see's it is not always rose coloured glasses.  For example, Nova Scotia Power.  These greedy bastards are always sitting with their hands in our pockets for a bigger and bigger chuck of money on a yearly basis.  Until I am able to be self sufficient and harvest my own power from the elements I am at the mercy of these fuckers.

The growing disparity of wealth has not always been the trend. If you look at the difference at the start of the industrial revolution, basically the birth of capitalism, the disparity was much worse. It improved drastically through the power of the people (formation of unions and collective bargaining, etc). More importantly (for the US), the mobility of wealth was always there when they became a country. Anybody could go from broke to riches in America (unless you were black and living in the south :-\). That is quickly becoming obsolete. Until someone proves it different to me, I'll stick to my guns that the rich types that the Occupiers are so pissed at are getting richer all the time whilst the worker bees get SFA by comparison)

Fortunately, for us in Canada, it's not even near obsolete. I've seen a lot of broke Newfies, my dad being one of them, move to Alberta and become rich. Everybody in Canada has these opportunities. (If you are in the right trade, with the right experience at the right time, maybe. In the 80's it was a bastard to get a decent job once the patch picked up and moved south following the National Energy Program's implementation)I'm not so sure they do in the US, and those opportunities are certainly disappearing quickly.

When I was a young buck, I was willing to go anywhere in Canada and looked overseas to some extent as well without much success for my line of work in the 80's.  I did have to compromise, change my expectations and start on a different track after a period of several years.  When I started college there were 6 jobs/Grad.  By the time I finished it was the reverse.  C'est la vie. 
AR, I hear what you say re: if I was to lose my job tomorrow.  Yes, I would be in a world of hurt and could easily find myself amongst your relations.  But as I've said, they are not the folks who are getting face time with these Occupiers media wise.  It's the usual suspects whom are career demonstrators so it would seem and they are the one's I diss.
 
Not "the right trade, with the right experience, at the right time" at all. I was 19 with no training, a high school diploma, on pace to make 100k a year working "on probation" as a sheet metal apprentice (but I hated sheet metal so much I joined the Army ;D). I am not the exception to the rule in this case. I have friends that I graduated with, with only a high school diploma and whatever random safety courses the company's paid for that are on contracts making 120k a year. Skilled work is in such high demand that companies will take anybody and pay them *well* while they obtain their trade / training (which is always paid for).

But suppose it *was* the "right trade" that mattered. Perhaps people getting the "wrong" trade or the "wrong" degree should consider that.



You suggested that growing disparity was always the trend. I did prove otherwise to you by using the IR example but let me expand on it further. The IR: when 6 yr olds had to go to work at factory's to help pay the bills, when families used to live in one room, and sewage used to run down the street and into the rivers which were used for drinking water, causing cholera and the like. This is how unions and collective bargaining and the like came around. Factory workers were oppressed by factory owners. People came together and fought for things like a "minimum" wage, and for standards on working conditions, etc, they did not always exist. You're right, growing disparity is the trend now, but it hasn't always been.

And if you think Nova Scotia Power is raping your bank account now, just imagine what they would be doing if the government (in our democratic society, an extension of the people) didn't pass legislation so that they can monitor, control, and regulate "natural" monopolies. You wouldn't be typing on your computer right now, you'd be lighting a fire in your wood stove, and probably lighting candles since I'm guessing it's starting to get dark in Nova Scotia right now.



People in this country are not oppressed by the wealthy or by the government or by both. People in this country have opportunities galore, and they have influence on their democratically elected government, as opposed to it being "ruled" by corporations. If that weren't the case, I wouldn't have signed up for the CF, I'd be out with the hippies protesting.
 
ballz said:
Not "the right trade, with the right experience, at the right time" at all. I was 19 with no training, a high school diploma, on pace to make 100k a year working "on probation" as a sheet metal apprentice (but I hated sheet metal so much I joined the Army ;D). I am not the exception to the rule in this case. I have friends that I graduated with, with only a high school diploma and whatever random safety courses the company's paid for that are on contracts making 120k a year. Skilled work is in such high demand that companies will take anybody and pay them *well* while they obtain their trade / training (which is always paid for).  I was bloody lucky to finally land a job which was in the patch for the grand sum of $1200/month.  That's right, $1200.  There were no grand paying jobs at that time in my working life.

But suppose it *was* the "right trade" that mattered. Perhaps people getting the "wrong" trade or the "wrong" degree should consider that.



You suggested that growing disparity was always the trend. I did prove otherwise to you by using the IR example but let me expand on it further. The IR: when 6 yr olds had to go to work at factory's to help pay the bills, when families used to live in one room, and sewage used to run down the street and into the rivers which were used for drinking water, causing cholera and the like. This is how unions and collective bargaining and the like came around. Factory workers were oppressed by factory owners. People came together and fought for things like a "minimum" wage, and for standards on working conditions, etc, they did not always exist. You're right, growing disparity is the trend now, but it hasn't always been.

And if you think Nova Scotia Power is raping your bank account now, just imagine what they would be doing if the government (in our democratic society, an extension of the people) didn't pass legislation so that they can monitor, control, and regulate "natural" monopolies. You wouldn't be typing on your computer right now, you'd be lighting a fire in your wood stove, and probably lighting candles since I'm guessing it's starting to get dark in Nova Scotia right now.  That's a good laugh.  The NS Utility and Review Board, a Gov't entity is a lap dog for NSP.  They routinely review NSP's application for price increases, go through the motions of listening to customers, then rubber stamp an increase.  NSP usually play the game of for example of asking for 13+% and getting say 8%.  They have to return to their share holders a guaranteed rate of 13% each year. 



People in this country are not oppressed by the wealthy or by the government or by both. People in this country have opportunities galore, and they have influence on their democratically elected government, as opposed to it being "ruled" by corporations. If that weren't the case, I wouldn't have signed up for the CF, I'd be out with the hippies protesting.  If everything was so rosy, then why oh why is there an occupation movement?  Someone, somewhere is confused.  The companies might not be oppressing people, BTW I never said they were (I said the rich were getting richer and the poor poorer), but some feel they are taking advantage of the consumer.  Or were those fat bonus payouts to the officers of some of these companies fair to the people below them?
 
Lots of 'what if's' coming out.

What if, we stay in the here and now and talk about actual things?

Going off on fantasy tangents will only water down the discussion and make it, eventually, unrecognizable.

:2c:
 
Privateer said:
Retired Philadelphia police captain joins Occupy Wall Street in uniform, and is arrested.  Not just for "hippies", apparently...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw5l0F-pe78&feature=share

I don't know what Philadelphia's departmental policy is regarding police pensioners wearing uniforms to out of town protests. But, in my opinion, he disgraced the uniform by getting himself arrested in it. They said he retired in 2004. He no longer represents Philly P.D.. He should have worn civvies.
It's a priviledge that he was allowed to keep his uniform when he retired. He took advantage of that, in my opnion.
My  :2c:
 
STRAIGHT TALK: Ezra debunks Occupy Toronto

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/opinions/archives/2011/11/20111118-174059.html

Kinda funny video when Ezra Levant goes to visit the Occupy Toronto camp... Close to 90% of the tents are unoccupied.
 
I think their may simply not be enough jobs anymore. Without manufacturing what is the working class suppsed to do?  Retail and food service? Try raising a family on 30k a year. I can barely do it on many times that. We need to screw over China and make them pay their emplyees more than 90 cents an hour for making iPhones. People need jobs real jobs, not slogans.
 
Nemo888 said:
Try raising a family on 30k a year.

Quite a few people do. I did it myself as a Private with a wife and kid and a second kid on the way. That was on much less that 30k.

I can barely do it on many times that

Then you are doing something seriously wrong. "may times" 30k is far from abject poverty and far from "barely do it".


not slogans.

So you throw one around yourself. Nice.

People need jobs real jobs,
 
Nemo888 said:
I think their may simply not be enough jobs anymore. Without manufacturing what is the working class suppsed to do?  Retail and food service? Try raising a family on 30k a year. I can barely do it on many times that. We need to screw over China and make them pay their emplyees more than 90 cents an hour for making iPhones. People need jobs real jobs, not slogans.


How many iPhones will be sold when the price, with a three year contract, is about $1,200.00 (rather than < $300.00)?
 
Nemo888 said:
I think their may simply not be enough jobs anymore. Without manufacturing what is the working class suppsed to do?  Retail and food service? Try raising a family on 30k a year. I can barely do it on many times that. We need to screw over China and make them pay their emplyees more than 90 cents an hour for making iPhones. People need jobs real jobs, not slogans.

My brother and his family is quite comfortable on $64k/annum as a junior Constable in the RCMP, so by saying it was even difficult on "many times that" seems hardly believable. Maybe it's time to stop buying the iPhones and Louis Vuitton and Prada...? I think that you will find "many times that" is not just doable but also quite comfortable.
 
Nemo888 said:
I think their may simply not be enough jobs anymore. Without manufacturing what is the working class suppsed to do?  Retail and food service? Try raising a family on 30k a year. I can barely do it on many times that. We need to screw over China and make them pay their emplyees more than 90 cents an hour for making iPhones. People need jobs real jobs, not slogans.

So what is your solution? Just want to phone up China and let them know they can't abuse their own people? That's the problem with this whole movement... a whole lot of whining, not showering, and doing drugs, and not a whole lot of real intellectual discussion or solutions, aside from taking all the money from the rich.  Social mobility is still possible, and perhaps even more so... with technology driving things, the youth have more an advantage than the older generation... look at a guy like Mark Zuckerberg (or whatever his face is)... he created facebook and is a mega-millionaire.  The people in the parks are just jealous that they lack the creativity, drive, or intellectual stimulus to be really successful.
 
In our society too many people dont want to have to work to get ahead. If you want to be a 1%er then you need to hustle and make things happen.The college kids today dont have that drive.They blame their lack of success on the system,rather than looking into the mirror.I saw yesterday that there are mining jobs that lack bodies to do the work at $100-200,000 a year.Sure its dirty and dangerous,thats why they are paying big bucks.
 
Nemo888 said:
I think their may simply not be enough jobs anymore. Without manufacturing what is the working class suppsed to do?  Retail and food service? Try raising a family on 30k a year. I can barely do it on many times that. We need to screw over China and make them pay their emplyees more than 90 cents an hour for making iPhones. People need jobs real jobs, not slogans.
Interesting.  The "Occupy" Movement has made "the 99%" its poster child.  We've now recently gone through a conversation that suggests the lack of North American (US & Canadian) jobs is a point of legitimacy for the movement.  Now we are a point of suggesting we need to "screw-over" the "95%" in order to bring back jobs for 96th to 98th percentile.

It has been suggested in other parts of the thread already.  There are plenty of off-shore workers coming to do jobs that Canadians won't do.  Maybe picking up a whole family and moving is not financially viable, but most of the off-shore workers that I am aware of live in employer provided accomodations for several months of seasonal work.  It may not be the most desirable option - but it beats living in the Indian slum that some are now suggesting we need to steal jobs away from.

 
MCG said:
Interesting.  The "Occupy" Movement has made "the 99%" its poster child.  We've now recently gone through a conversation that suggests the lack of North American (US & Canadian) jobs is a point of legitimacy for the movement.  Now we are a point of suggesting we need to "screw-over" the "95%" in order to bring back jobs for 96th to 98th percentile.

It has been suggested in other parts of the thread already.  There are plenty of off-shore workings coming to do jobs that Canadians won't do.  Maybe picking up a whole family and moving is not financially viable, but most of the off-shore workers that I am aware of live in employer provided accomodations for several months of seasonal work. It may not be the most desirable option - but it beats living in the Indian slum that some are now suggesting we need to steal jobs away from.

Take a look at http://www.riotinto.com/

They're a HUGE internationally operating corporation that focuses on Mining and Processing... but with that comes Security workers, miners, drivers (although they boast the worlds largest fleet of driverless trucks), researchers, lift operators, labourers, engineers of all kinds, marketers, and much much more... and they're offering BIG DOLLARS. I imagine that like many other international mining and oil companies, they fly you out and house you on company dime WHILE paying you to work for months at a time. All you have to do is be determined, and work hard. A friend of mine (no pun intended) works as a Drilling Tech (Technical Diploma required) and he makes way more money than most of us thought was possible as a manual labourer, he goes on 2 week vacations to the south riviera in France twice a year lol.
 
Sythen said:
STRAIGHT TALK: Ezra debunks Occupy Toronto

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/opinions/archives/2011/11/20111118-174059.html

Kinda funny video when Ezra Levant goes to visit the Occupy Toronto camp... Close to 90% of the tents are unoccupied.

Maybe the owners are out looking for jobs ;)
 
Sythen said:
STRAIGHT TALK: Ezra debunks Occupy Toronto

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/opinions/archives/2011/11/20111118-174059.html

Kinda funny video when Ezra Levant goes to visit the Occupy Toronto camp... Close to 90% of the tents are unoccupied.
Makes you think huh?  It was hilarious listening to those "occupiers" try and convince Ezra that he and his film crew were in the wrong. 

And Ezra is right in that the greater majority of them are hypocrites in that they use Blackberries, iPhones, call on cops even though they supposedly hate them, cry about assault all the while snatching glasses off of Ezra's face.  Move in, remove all the tents save the occupied ones (at 4 am) and let the city see just what is up.
 
Love the video.  Nice to see Ezra owning the crockcupiers like that.  And that is why that kind of protester is not going to get my attention.  Losers and squatters.
 
Now the Law Union of Ontario has filed a complaint with the High Commissioner of Human Rights at the UN!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2011/11/18/occupy-canada-un-complaint.html

Hawk
 
Hawk said:
Now the Law Union of Ontario has filed a complaint with the High Commissioner of Human Rights at the UN!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2011/11/18/occupy-canada-un-complaint.html

Hawk

:rofl:    :blah:  :nevermind:  :ignore:
 
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