The Decline of the Liberal Party- Swerved Into a Confederation Topic

[lenaitch]

Moving isn’t as simple as “just move”.
The costs associated with moving are not cheap at all, and from what I hear from people in the CAF, it’s takes a toll having to move every 3-4 years especially if you have a spouse and kids.

True, but not moving and not earning a decent income, or at least setting yourself on the road to a decent income or career, comes with a cost. Typically, the younger you are, the less stuff you have so less the cost. If the distance isn't nuts, the younger you are, you can often pick on friends, beer and pizza to git 'er done. We in our current house now 12 years - longest I've been in one place since I left home at 22, and I'm kinda-sorta normal.

The military is a bit of an outlier in today's world, but it earlier times probably wasn't typically unique. Bank managers and those on the manager track used to be moved, a lot, and many small branches had a house or apartment you just took over. A buddy was a career IBMer and the inside joke was IBM stood for 'I've Been Moved'.

As well, a lot of the trades involved in commercial, public infrastructure, mining or an area that is particularly specialized, are constantly chasing work. Often, not pulling up stakes and moving, but being away from home, a lot.

 

[Kat Stevens]

True, but not moving and not earning a decent income, or at least setting yourself on the road to a decent income or career, comes with a cost. Typically, the younger you are, the less stuff you have so less the cost. If the distance isn't nuts, the younger you are, you can often pick on friends, beer and pizza to git 'er done. We in our current house now 12 years - longest I've been in one place since I left home at 22, and I'm kinda-sorta normal.

The military is a bit of an outlier in today's world, but it earlier times probably wasn't typically unique. Bank managers and those on the manager track used to be moved, a lot, and many small branches had a house or apartment you just took over. A buddy was a career IBMer and the inside joke was IBM stood for 'I've Been Moved'.

As well, a lot of the trades involved in commercial, public infrastructure, mining or an area that is particularly specialized, are constantly chasing work. Often, not pulling up stakes and moving, but being away from home, a lot.

UXO tech enters the chat

 

[IKnowNothing]

Except that the land on the outskirts of town is now 45 km. or further out. One thing though is I don't see anyone building 1100 sq. ft. basic homes anymore. They are all opting for 2000 plus on 30 to 50 ft. lots and all advertised by the preface "luxury". Building costs for a basic home are still around 350000 plus land value from what my local hardware tells me so 5000000 total except that no one is building them

Fair numbers, maybe a little low. Sticking points-
->acquiring said lot for said number- good luck. If it exists (and is buildable) developers and custom home builders are going to be all over it
->financing. Vacant land transactions skew towards 50% down, construction mortgages another 20%. 135k down (plus ~10k in permitting and development), full mortgage payments on the vacant land, interest only on the construction as progress draws are being released, while still paying for somewhere else to live

Harder to swing than just buying the overpriced 500k house. And that 1st sticking point is the big one. Freehold residential building lots are unicorns in populated areas.

 

[Brad Sallows]

As we speak, there is land being redeveloped from "acreages" into condos and townhouse complexes (and a few detached homes) near where I live, much less than 45 km outside of "town" (Vancouver).

 

[YZT580]

Fair numbers, maybe a little low. Sticking points-
->acquiring said lot for said number- good luck. If it exists (and is buildable) developers and custom home builders are going to be all over it
->financing. Vacant land transactions skew towards 50% down, construction mortgages another 20%. 135k down (plus ~10k in permitting and development), full mortgage payments on the vacant land, interest only on the construction as progress draws are being released, while still paying for somewhere else to live

Harder to swing than just buying the overpriced 500k house. And that 1st sticking point is the big one. Freehold residential building lots are unicorns in populated areas.

The notion was to buy a lot and build your own home not development land. Just did a quick search centred on Milton, Ontario. No single lots showed up within any town limits. Found only one less than two acre lot under a million. Acreage for development can be had for 2 million plus per acre. I don't know what it costs to fully service a lot but I think they can put about 6 singles on a one acre lot so that would be a base price of 333000. Construction costs for a modular home are approximately 160 a square foot so 500000 or close to it should be doable which brings me back to my point. No builder seems to be constructing small, basic homes. To make things worse, the trend here is to buy an older home in need of repair, so-called handyman's special, rip it down and build either build two semis or more if you can sweet talk the town into approving it, or option B, construct a 3000 square ft. plus for the high end market. This has driven the price of older homes through the roof. Towns love it 'cause the tax base goes up but the poor clerk in the local variety store can't afford to live in his own town anymore.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Why does it have to be Milton? There's lots of small towns with lots and homes available. Or like I said, build a tiny house and start out living some what within thier means. He'll, you can turn a $3000 sea container into some pretty nice digs. They are building 3 level homes with those now. Nobody needs a fancy house to start. You want heat and shelter. Niceties can be added as you go. We've also printed some 3D homes down here recently.

 

[YZT580]

Why does it have to be Milton? There's lots of small towns with lots and homes available. Or like I said, build a tiny house and start out living some what within thier means. He'll, you can turn a $3000 sea container into some pretty nice digs. They are building 3 level homes with those now. Nobody needs a fancy house to start. You want heat and shelter. Niceties can be added as you go. We've also printed some 3D homes down here recently.

If you can get the land. And Milton was just a for-instance to avoid talking about Toronto or some other major city. Town zoning can also require minimum square footage or dictate the materials used.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Builders will want to max out the resale value of whatever they put on a piece of land, but subject to what people will buy. People who buy are essentially saying they want large homes with fancy (but costly) architectural quiffs - gables, bay windows, pot lamps in every overhanging surface...

Of course, when you build on your own land (or hire a contractor), you build what you want.

Very little of what goes on in local zoning and provincial building codes can be laid at the feet of federal political parties, though.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

As we speak, there is land being redeveloped from "acreages" into condos and townhouse complexes (and a few detached homes) near where I live, much less than 45 km outside of "town" (Vancouver).

The ALR is no match for a developers and their pet politicians.

 

[IKnowNothing]

The notion was to buy a lot and build your own home not development land. Just did a quick search centred on Milton, Ontario.

Yup, that was the premise I was working on. Still dinged with development charges in many jurisdictions. Truth be told I didn't even consider looking at Barrie over to Tri-City down into the greater Golden Horseshoe. The chance of any private individual getting a single building lot free and clear of a developer or community development plan is slim to none.

500k is likely fair, the mix might just change. Scanning midwestern Ontario (Grey/Bruce/Perth/Wellington) single building lots seem to float in the 150-300k range (generally skewing higher), people in the area tend to use 200/ft for single level (unless you're your own general and getting some work done cash). If you're out of town looking at a 5-15k well, 10-20k septic.

Overall point is that there's not a glaring market innefficiency just waiting to be exploited by anyone with the gumption to do it instead of complaino g about the cost of a home

 

[Fishbone Jones]

You all sound like defeatists

Everyone is complaining, but nobody is offering solutions. I hear Boomers offering comment on what to do, but it is immediately pooh poohed with no counter other than, "It cost too much."

Again, why Barrie. Why not Barrys Bay? Or North Bay? Or Kapuskasing? Lots of land in those places.

I had two young Corporals, at separate times, that went north to Red Deer. To start their careers. One became a Mining Engineer and the other started as security at the mine and ended up as OPP there. Neither had anything when they went there. Both are still there with families and homes now. They love it there. And this was in the near , not to distance past. Why did they go? Because they heard there was work to be had, and they had the guts to take a chance.

If it's too expensive where you are, to live and make a living, move to where it's not.

Starting , oh let's say around Sudbury and north of that. There's tons of unincorporated township areas. When you are in one of those, you need no permits, inspections or anything else, except time and fortitude, to build. Buy a partial lot and get at it. Go for a job, that you can do from there, by computer. Or better yet, start your own cottage industry.

Forget instant gratification and do it the old fashioned way. It is already a proven way, by millions that went before.

Pioneers got their land, started by living in a lean to, or similar, and constantly improved and added on over time to where they had something the family could call home.

 

[daftandbarmy]

You all sound like defeatists

Everyone is complaining, but nobody is offering solutions. I hear Boomers offering comment on what to do, but it is immediately pooh poohed with no counter other than, "It cost too much."

Again, why Barrie. Why not Barrys Bay? Or North Bay? Or Kapuskasing? Lots of land in those places.

I had two young Corporals, at separate times, that went north to Red Deer. To start their careers. One became a Mining Engineer and the other started as security at the mine and ended up as OPP there. Neither had anything when they went there. Both are still there with families and homes now. They love it there. And this was in the near , not to distance past. Why did they go? Because they heard there was work to be had.

If it's too expensive where you are, to live and make a living, move to where it's not.

Starting , oh let's say around Sudbury and north of that. There's tons of unincorporated township areas. When you are in one of those, you need no permits, inspections or anything else, except time and fortitude, to build. Buy a partial lot and get at it. Go for a job, that you can do from there, by computer. Or better yet, start your own cottage industry.

Forget instant gratification and do it the old fashioned way. It is already a proven way, by millions that went before.

Pioneers got their land, started by living in a lean to, or similar, and constantly improved and added on over time to where they had something the family could call home.

Our average age is the highest it's ever been and we're getting older.

'Little House on the Prairie' isn't much of a thing anymore....

Canada's population estimates: Age and sex, July 1, 2021​

While the pandemic affected population growth in 2020/2021, its impact on the age structure of the Canadian population was not as pronounced.

Canada's population continues to age, with the average age increasing from 41.4 years on July 1, 2020, to 41.7 years on July 1, 2021. Almost one in five (18.5%) Canadians are now aged 65 and older, and the number of centenarians rose 1,100 year over year to 12,822 as of July 1, 2021.

The Daily — Canada's population estimates: Age and sex, July 1, 2021

Canada's population growth has slowed following border restrictions to curb the spread of COVID-19. Although the population continued to grow during the 12-month period ending on June 30, 2021 (year 2020/2021), the pace of growth (estimated at +0.5%) was less than half the growth measured a year...

www150.statcan.gc.ca

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Our average age is the highest it's ever been and we're getting older.

'Little House on the Prairie' isn't much of a thing anymore....

Canada's population estimates: Age and sex, July 1, 2021​

While the pandemic affected population growth in 2020/2021, its impact on the age structure of the Canadian population was not as pronounced.

Canada's population continues to age, with the average age increasing from 41.4 years on July 1, 2020, to 41.7 years on July 1, 2021. Almost one in five (18.5%) Canadians are now aged 65 and older, and the number of centenarians rose 1,100 year over year to 12,822 as of July 1, 2021.

The Daily — Canada's population estimates: Age and sex, July 1, 2021

Canada's population growth has slowed following border restrictions to curb the spread of COVID-19. Although the population continued to grow during the 12-month period ending on June 30, 2021 (year 2020/2021), the pace of growth (estimated at +0.5%) was less than half the growth measured a year...

www150.statcan.gc.ca

I'm pretty sure we were talking Millennials and beyond. You don't have to be Laura Ingals. That was an example of the pioneer spirit only. Unless you're infantry, nobody is expected to live in a hole in the ground.

People can and are, doing exactly as I said.

You can build a Tiny House instead of a sod shack. There's not much, if any, in the south. But there's lots of Crown Land up north. A 99 year lease is cheap.

Food? It's there. You just have to catch it, grow it or find it. None of the supermarket animals that come in styrofoam and plastic.

Here's a great traininig aid. And it's on film. So no effort expended watching it.

 

[IKnowNothing]

The housing issue in Canada is classic "law of diminishing returns" in that as more and more money is spent, the less benefit is incurred.

The old strategies employed by our Parents and their generation are no longer working, they've essentially run their course.

I'm not sure if the bill is well thought out in it's entirety, but removing the restrictions on adding a 2nd/3rd unit to the same property could have an absolutely huge impact for those that have the space and make use of it.

 

[Furniture]

You all sound like defeatists

Everyone is complaining, but nobody is offering solutions. I hear Boomers offering comment on what to do, but it is immediately pooh poohed with no counter other than, "It cost too much."

Again, why Barrie. Why not Barrys Bay? Or North Bay? Or Kapuskasing? Lots of land in those places.

I had two young Corporals, at separate times, that went north to Red Deer. To start their careers. One became a Mining Engineer and the other started as security at the mine and ended up as OPP there. Neither had anything when they went there. Both are still there with families and homes now. They love it there. And this was in the near , not to distance past. Why did they go? Because they heard there was work to be had, and they had the guts to take a chance.

If it's too expensive where you are, to live and make a living, move to where it's not.

Starting , oh let's say around Sudbury and north of that. There's tons of unincorporated township areas. When you are in one of those, you need no permits, inspections or anything else, except time and fortitude, to build. Buy a partial lot and get at it. Go for a job, that you can do from there, by computer. Or better yet, start your own cottage industry.

Forget instant gratification and do it the old fashioned way. It is already a proven way, by millions that went before.

Pioneers got their land, started by living in a lean to, or similar, and constantly improved and added on over time to where they had something the family could call home.

What do you propose people do for employment in those places? Most of the mining, forestry, milling, etc., that brought those towns to life has gone away. People aren't moving to the cities because they necessarily want to live in cities, they are moving there because the industries that kept people more rural have dried up, in many cases due to cheap foreign labour, automation, and regulation.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

What do you propose people do for employment in those places? Most of the mining, forestry, milling, etc., that brought those towns to life has gone away. People aren't moving to the cities because they necessarily want to live in cities, they are moving there because the industries that kept people more rural have dried up in many cases due to cheap foreign labour, automation, and regulation.

Maybe that's the problem. No imagination. There's lots people can do to make money.

Nobody is guaranteed their dream job. Sometimes, you just gotta finally stop demanding and asking questions. Sometimes, you have to do research and use your imagination. Sometimes, you need to buckle down, create some finances so you can gain a foothold. You do that by doing what is hard and not being afraid to do something you may not want to. Tough. If you need to start somewhere, start by believing, you can do whatever you need to, and get moving. Or you can beat the pavement in Toronto. I'm sure, eventually after doing that for a decade or so, you will land your middle management, $90,000 job with benefits. Or not. That's a recipe for ending up with a career packing boxes at an Amazon hub.

Private entrepreneurs have been around forever, offering things others don't and providing services. Individual opportunity and drive to do the hard, unpopular thing, built this country. Maybe they can take a marketing class to get started.

Life is hard. Everyone knows the rest. I won't finish the phrase as it doesn't apply. I won't hang a 'stupid' moniker on people stuck in a bad situation. Sometimes you have to make hard choices. If you can't, you'll never be successful in life as someone able to make their own direction in the world. You will just be another worker bee and have other people tell you what to do after all. Accepting whatever wage they decide to give you and being unsatisfied your whole life.

I am not offering any more opinion or solutions. Or answering questions that start with yabut. If you want discussion you'll have to start the conversation. It's easy. Give me one good solid idea how Millennials, et al, can make their way in the world and how they can do it individually, without leaning on or blaming someone else. How they can stand on their own two feet and become a hard charger with guts and gumption to take the bull by the horns. We can discuss your solution. We've offered enough suggestions and the reasons for our points. The other side just keeps blowing them off, because they didn't like the option offered.

Let us Boomers here know, what you are planning to do, individually. What can the individual do, to make it in life instead of asking us what we can give/owe you or offering excuses. The only thing anyone in this country, is entitled to is whatever is in the Constitution and Charter. Although that has been questionable lately.

So, no more questions or blame. You tell us, how you are going to solve the problem. You have to end your solution with the person making a living wage themselves. No social financing.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

What do you propose people do for employment in those places? Most of the mining, forestry, milling, etc., that brought those towns to life has gone away. People aren't moving to the cities because they necessarily want to live in cities, they are moving there because the industries that kept people more rural have dried up, in many cases due to cheap foreign labour, automation, and regulation.

In BC right now, three projects employ between 10-15,000 skilled workers. When those projects are done. There is nothing on the books for them. Thanks to a large part on the Liberal policies.

 

[daftandbarmy]

In BC right now, three projects employ between 10-15,000 skilled workers. When those projects are done. There is nothing on the books for them. Thanks to a large part on the Liberal policies.

Interestingly enough, having speaking to some of the folks running very big projects like those, they say that they would like to hire more BC residents but, sadly, they can't find enough who are properly qualified.

One guy said 'my office looks like the United Nations' because he had to hire people from South America, the USA, Africa, Europe and Asia when he couldn't find enough suitable candidates here.

 

[Furniture]

Maybe that's the problem. No imagination. There's lots people can do to make money.

Nobody is guaranteed their dream job. Sometimes, you just gotta finally stop demanding and asking questions. Sometimes, you have to do research and use your imagination. Sometimes, you need to buckle down, create some finances so you can gain a foothold. You do that by doing what is hard and not being afraid to do something you may not want to. Tough. If you need to start somewhere, start by believing, you can do whatever you need to, and get moving. Or you can beat the pavement in Toronto. I'm sure, eventually after doing that for a decade or so, you will land your middle management, $90,000 job with benefits. Or not. That's a recipe for ending up with a career packing boxes at an Amazon hub.

Private entrepreneurs have been around forever, offering things others don't and providing services. Individual opportunity and drive to do the hard, unpopular thing, built this country. Maybe they can take a marketing class to get started.

Life is hard. Everyone knows the rest. I won't finish the phrase as it doesn't apply. I won't hang a 'stupid' moniker on people stuck in a bad situation. Sometimes you have to make hard choices. If you can't, you'll never be successful in life as someone able to make their own direction in the world. You will just be another worker bee and have other people tell you what to do after all. Accepting whatever wage they decide to give you and being unsatisfied your whole life.

I am not offering any more opinion or solutions. Or answering questions that start with yabut. If you want discussion you'll have to start the conversation. It's easy. Give me one good solid idea how Millennials, et al, can make their way in the world and how they can do it individually, without leaning on or blaming someone else. How they can stand on their own two feet and become a hard charger with guts and gumption to take the bull by the horns. We can discuss your solution. We've offered enough suggestions and the reasons for our points. The other side just keeps blowing them off, because they didn't like the option offered.

Let us Boomers here know, what you are planning to do, individually. What can the individual do, to make it in life instead of asking us what we can give/owe you or offering excuses. The only thing anyone in this country, is entitled to is whatever is in the Constitution and Charter. Although that has been questionable lately.

So, no more questions or blame. You tell us, how you are going to solve the problem. You have to end your solution with the person making a living wage themselves. No social financing.

That's a lot of words to say, "young people are dumb and lazy".

What built Canada was a need for a large labour force to harvest raw materials, and to then process those raw materials into things. That large labour force needed support services, and entrepreneurs could find ways to provide services to those labourers.

I'm not blaming anyone for anything, I'm simply pointing out that what you suggested is not a realistic solution. Perhaps argue my point, rather than lumping me into some broader generational bunfight.

 

[IKnowNothing]

That's a lot of words to say, "young people are dumb and lazy".

What built Canada was a need for a large labour force to harvest raw materials, and to then process those raw materials into things. That large labour force needed support services, and entrepreneurs could find ways to provide services to those labourers.

I'm not blaming anyone for anything, I'm simply pointing out that what you suggested is not a realistic solution. Perhaps argue my point, rather than lumping me into some broader generational bunfight.

Yeah, when the issue is this, "stop pointing out objective reality, fuck off to the bush if you don't like it" isn't really a solution.