• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Should Canada lead the fight in Afghanistan?

Edward Campbell

Army.ca Myth
Subscriber
Donor
Mentor
Reaction score
4,431
Points
1,160
Reproduced below, in accordance with the fair dealing provisions of the Copyright Act, is the debate, in the pages of today’s Globe and Mail, between Minister O’Connor and the defence sritics from the BQ, Liberals and NDP re: the question:

"WHEREAS the Government of Afghanistan has requested international assistance to protect its new administration and to ensure the country's peaceful transition to democracy,

BE IT RESOLVED that Canada should deploy Canadian Forces to Aghanistan in a NATO combat mission in furtherance of this objective."


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060227.wxafghandebate0227/BNStory/Afghanistan/home
Should Canada lead the fight in Afghanistan?

They are not debating that question in Parliament. So we're debating it in The Globe and on globeandmail.com

MONDAY, FEBRUARY 27, 2006 POSTED AT 11:07 AM EST
FROM MONDAY'S GLOBE AND MAIL

On Tuesday, Canada takes control of the NATO-led troops battling insurgents in the Kandahar region of southern Afghanistan. It's a war mission, not traditional peacekeeping.

But Parliament has never debated the deployment and the new Conservative government said Sunday it opposes a vote on the issue in the Commons. Jeff Sallot reports Defence Minister won't support vote on troops in Afghanistan

So The Globe invited the four federal parties to debate the following resolution and to follow it up today by having the same key figures discuss the issue on-line with readers of globeandmail.com. Mr. O'Connor declined to take your questions. You can follow the discussion with the other three here.

The resolution:
WHEREAS the government of Afghanistan has requested international assistance to protect its new administration and to ensure the country's peaceful transition to democracy,
BE IT RESOLVED that Canada should deploy Canadian Forces to Afghanistan in a NATO combat mission in furtherance of this objective

We will stay the course in Afghanistan, says Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor

Since its original participation in Operation Enduring Freedom in 2001, Canada's overarching goal in Afghanistan has been to prevent the country from lapsing into the failed state that gave terrorists and terrorist organizations a safe haven for so many years. This mission is ongoing, and is evolving to meet the current security threats of southern Afghanistan.

In August of 2003, under Operation Athena in Kabul, Canadian Forces personnel began helping Afghanistan down the long road to peace, stability and democracy. This was followed, in August of last year, by a Provincial Reconstruction Team (PRT), which was sent to Kandahar in southern Afghanistan. The PRT has helped lay the groundwork for the follow-on Canadian missions in the south with the goal of creating a stable society under Afghan governance.

As part of this PRT, members of the Canadian Forces are helping to reinforce the authority of the Afghan government in and around Kandahar. They are also conducting security patrols, supporting local governance institutions and facilitating reforms to the security sector.

Together with troops from other countries, the Canadian Forces are making a real impact in Afghanistan. All over the country, buildings are being rebuilt. Refugees are returning home. Marketplaces are bustling. And little girls once again attend schools.

There has also been substantial progress in governance. Afghans were able to choose their own leaders in free and fair presidential and parliamentary elections. And institutions such as the Afghan National Army and the Afghan National Police are assuming ever-increasing responsibilities. But challenges remain. Extremism remains a force and the drug trade remains a currency for many.

This means that our work is not done. We will continue to support Afghanistan by increasing our commitment to the UN-mandated operations in that country and by deploying in a leadership role to the southern region of Kandahar.

The Canadian Forces are currently in the midst of increasing their force level in Afghanistan to 2,300 troops. These additional troops will build on the work that the Canadian Provincial Reconstruction Team has been doing there.

Long-term success in Afghanistan requires a long-term commitment from Canada, NATO and the United Nations. We will stay the course in Afghanistan. It's important for the future of Afghanistan. It's important for the stability of the region. And it's important for international security.

Gordon O'Connor is Canada's Defence Minister.

The Liberals recognize that securing Kandahar comes first, says Ujjal Dosanjh

The Liberal Opposition fully supports the deployment of the Canadian Forces to southern Afghanistan. The previous Liberal government launched this multifaceted mission in direct response to the expressed needs of the democratically elected government of Afghanistan, as well as the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, in recognition of the global commitment to establish peace and security in the country. NATO will soon be responsible for all of the international military forces in Afghanistan.

Providing a stable future for Afghanistan is a critical mission: Continuing instability can be a breeding ground for international crime and terrorism. Our mission in Afghanistan also allows our Canadian Forces to act against the suffering and denial of human rights that exist under regimes such as the Taliban that represent an affront to universal Canadian values.

The Liberal Opposition supports a multifaceted mission in Afghanistan with a strong humanitarian component, an emphasis on building civil society and democratic institutions, and a commitment to reconstruction. That is why the Liberal government sent a Provincial Reconstruction Team (PRT), comprised of military and civilian government officials, to Kandahar last summer. We believe that incorporating these components into the mission is vital to a successful future for Afghanistan. The reconstruction efforts of the Canadian Forces in Afghanistan are a reflection of Canadian values and are one of the great strengths of the Canadian Forces (as compared to many other military forces). The Liberal Opposition accepts that security in this region is a precondition for reconstruction to take place. That is why our government decided to send a combat-capable task force to Kandahar. We continue to view this as an essential part of the reconstruction effort.

The Canadian Forces have been operating in Afghanistan for more than four years. Their achievements, and their sacrifices, have been significant. Canadians are proud of the work of our military in Afghanistan, and do support this critical and often dangerous mission. We can be secure in the knowledge that contributing to the security and the rebuilding of this troubled country is in our national interest, in the interest of international peace and progress, and reflective of our values as a people.

Ujjal Dosanjh is Liberal defence critic.

The Bloc demands absolute respect for humanitarian law, says Claude Bachand

In October of 2001, when then-prime minister Jean Chrétien told Bloc Québécois Leader Gilles Duceppe that he was preparing to offer Canadian military assistance in toppling the Taliban, Mr. Duceppe assured him that the government had the support of the Bloc Québécois. The operation was legal because it had been approved by the United Nations, legitimate because the Taliban constituted a threat to peace, and humanly justifiable because the regime was terrorizing the Afghan people.
During the conflict, the Bloc Québécois was insistent on strict respect for international
humanitarian law. It condemned the use of fragmentation bombs, which do not distinguish between civilians and combatants, and sharply criticized the government when Canada handed prisoners over to the American military without making sure that their rights would be respected. In the end, the Bloc Québécois obtained a commitment from the government that it would respect international law.

The Canadian Forces did very good work. In Kabul, they were able to restore and maintain the semblance of order that the Afghan government needed to begin functioning. With the flight of the Taliban from Kabul, international intervention has become necessary in southern Afghanistan. The Afghan government needs help to control its territory, pacify the country and make possible a return to normal life. As in Kabul, the upcoming mission will be under the aegis of the UN and conducted jointly with NATO.

Certainly this is more hostile territory — the fiefdom of the Taliban and the warlords. But the 3-D approach, integrating defence, diplomacy and development assistance, seems well-suited to this kind of mission. A comprehensive and integrated approach will make it possible to achieve the mission's goals, including renewed security, delivery of humanitarian aid, the strengthening of institutions, and economic development.

For these reasons, we are supporting the extension of the Canadian Forces' mission. However, we hope that Parliament will be given an opportunity to vote on it. Given the size of the contingent being deployed, and the uncertainty surrounding how long the mission will last, this is a very important issue.

Lastly, the Bloc Québécois demands absolute respect for international humanitarian law: Civilians and prisoners must be protected. The fiasco in Somalia, where the situation was similar to the one facing the Canadian soldiers in southern Afghanistan, must not be allowed to happen again.

Claude Bachand is Bloc Québécois defence critic.

The NDP insists that Parliament debate this mission, says Dawn Black

This would be an excellent motion for the House of Commons to debate and vote on, were it not for the fact that the government has already agreed to the request, and our troops are already in Afghanistan.

In fact, Canada has been playing a role in this region for years without any motions being debated in the House of Commons. In February of 2002, the Liberal government launched Operation Apollo in Kandahar. It was on this mission that four Canadian soldiers were killed by friendly fire from a U.S. warplane. This mission ended in the summer of 2003.

Through last summer and fall, the Liberals quietly made commitments to the U.S. and Afghan governments for Canada to join a robust mission in Kandahar that included direct combat with the Taliban.

On Aug. 16 of last year, the Liberals announced that a Canadian officer was taking command of the multinational-force team in Kandahar. It wasn't until Oct. 4 that the Commons defence committee received its closed-door briefing from bureaucrats and military commanders about the new mission.

The call for a debate in the House of Commons is no empty gesture. It is required to answer a number of questions and to ensure that Canadian values are upheld abroad. Here are two examples.

First, Canada has developed a proud reputation opposing the use of anti-personnel land mines. But as UBC professor Michael Byers has pointed out, when Canadian soldiers have refused to plant land mines in Afghanistan on multinational-force ventures, the Americans have simply performed the task anyway. Is Canada complicit in undermining the global land-mine treaty to which it contributed so much energy less than a decade ago?

Second, although the Liberals claimed to be seeking assurances that prisoners captured by Canadian forces and handed over to the Americans or Afghans would not be tortured, no agreements have been forthcoming.

Canadians need assurances that we are following the rule of law and promoting Canadian values abroad. That we even need these assurances speaks volumes about how far Canada has strayed from its role of peacekeeping. This fundamental shift, above all, requires better and timely communication, public engagement, and a full debate in the public forum designed for just that purpose: the House of Commons.

In their platform, the Conservatives promised to "make Parliament responsible for exercising oversight over the conduct of Canadian foreign policy and the commitment of Canadian Forces to foreign operations." Now is the time to see that in action.

Dawn Black is NDP defence critic.


 
I think its about time we started discussing Canada's involvement in Afghanistan, but it is a day late and a dollar short. Like it or not we are there, we are committed.  A believe the MND has it correct, time for an open debate in parliament is long past; this should have been carried out long ago. Discussing the issue in the press is simply freedom of the press and democracy in action.

I hope and believe that the Government will continue to clarify its intent and continue to support the military carrying on with the assigned mission. To back pedal and waffle at this point in time will be a complete morale killer for those in the military undertaking difficult missions and their families back home.
 
I think it's funny how the only one who thinks we should have had or should have a debate about it is the NDP Dawn Black, She mentions about the 4 that dies of friendly fire but says nothing about how good we are doing now, or about the guys over now
 
Should Canada lead the fight in Afghanistan? How do you mean ? Take command of all forces in theater ?
 
Maybe have all NATO forces except US under Canadian control? Just an idear.
 
ArmyRick said:
Just an idear.
You from Jamaica?

Anyway, I thought that that was the plan.  Freeing up the Americans to move to other locals.  Probably like we did in Bosnia and several times since.  Set up a Multi-national Command, and then rotate through countries for Commander positions.
 
::) My god my fellow Canadian are full of themselves.

The bayonets on the ground free up maybe 1000 US CBT Arms troops.  It has NO tactical significance -- it is a strategic bonus for adding to the coalition and the fact an ally is willing to enter the fray in one of the more active areas o :eek:f Afghanistan, but people thinking that Canada is LEADING had better give their head a shake.

Mind You listening to the Brits you'd think they had taken over all Combat operations in Afghan  ::)


Back to the commentary by the Politicians -- I love that comment by the Bloc bozo about beign against Fragmentation bombs sicne they don't know friend or foe - I think it would be illuminating to explain to them about weapons and warfare -- and none of my weapons descriminate friend or foe -- that is why the Queen owns the bullet until you pull the tirgger then you do (or in my case the US Gov't owns the bullet until I accept responsibility for it by sending it downrange)

I get a kick of Canada's tea party politicing in this respect.


 
Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act:

PUBLICATION:  National Post
DATE:  2006.03.01
EDITION:  National
SECTION:  Letters
PAGE:  A15
BYLINE:  Michael Shannon
SOURCE:  National Post
WORD COUNT:  219

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wrong way to win the Afghan peace

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Waging Peace In Afghanistan, Chris Wattie, Feb. 25.

Why are Afghan soldiers not capable of patrolling Kandahar? For the cost of the Canadian contingent, we could have easily raised and equipped several Afghan brigades, if not divisions. Moreover, the delivery of humanitarian aid by combat troops is the least cost-effective method.

I have spent time in Afghanistan training the Afghan National Army, and I worry that Canada has not thought out the nuts and bolts of how to get the anti-government Afghans on side. The high cost of the Canadian mission, short tour length, non-existent language skills and focus on force protection make waging a successful counter-insurgency campaign in the Pashtun tribal areas very unlikely. It's not that the Canadian Forces may not be able to kill a few guerrillas. It's that killing them is pointless (as the Soviets found out) and in fact simply stirs the hornet's nest.

So why are we in Afghanistan? One: so our politicians and diplomats can get the photos ops and invitations to conferences they crave. Two: the military badly needs justification for its massive budget and reassurance that it's taken seriously. Don't look for justifications for our acts in tactics or strategy; look for careerism in the federal government.

Michael Shannon, Baghdad, Iraq.
 
Why does it seem like the author of that article does not know too much...
I may be off base with this one, but, Is it just me, or is situation with the Afghan soldiers similar to that of the new Iraqi soldiers; They're incompetent.  Being trained by a pro does not mean you are going to become a pro.  I would not want to put the future of a nation in the hands of a military force that was not very effective before the War started, much less now.
The war we are fighting is far different from that of the Soviet invasion.  Guerrilla warfare is extremely effective when you are at a technological and numerical disadvantage.  The Soviets were not killing as many Mujahideen as they thought.  On top of that, the Stingers the fighters had were causing a lot of grief for the Soviet helicopters, troops, and transport.  The combination of dropping Morale, with worse than expected results will make it seem like one is doing far worse than one really is doing.  The Mujahideen were also excellent at ambushing pretty much any Soviet force after much trial and error.
The forces the coalition is facing now, for what the news, and government wishes to tell the public, are not out in as great of numbers at any one place or time as they were in the Soviet war.  Nor are they as skilled with ambushing and staying around to elimninate as much of the force as they cane before they WANT to pull out of the fight (just like the Viet Cong in the Vietnam War(the staying around part is key, as they can ambush still)).  Like I said before, from what the news, and government wishes to tell the public, they just use bombs, RPGs and their firearms in hit and run tactics.  I am not saying this is how it really happens all the time, But it seems like the "terrorists" know that they won't win in a full on confrontation with Coalition forces, so they are pushing to kill morale, and use media and politics to push the troops out (like Vietnam).  It is authors like the one of the ariticle just posted that are helping - without knowing it - the Taliban, or terrorists, or what ever one would like to call them acheive their aim.

The Soviet war was and Invasion, for maintaining Soviet interests in the area.  The war we are fighting now is supposed to be in the interest of the Afghan people, while ridding the world of a threat one person at a time.  There is a BIG difference there.
What other ways of  winning "the Afghan peace" does  Shannon propose?

Keep in mind I am a civilian going off my research and studies, I have not been there, service men and women will a much better knowledge of what is going on now than I would.
 
http://forums.army.ca/forums/members/10586;sa=summary
 
Don't make the mistake of assigning credibility to anything written by our very own "Michael Shannon".  First off, the name is simply a pseudonym for a mediocre ex-regular force infantry officer who then drifted to the RCMP (and left under a cloud), then drifted to the Reserve Infantry (and left under a cloud), and is now working as a contractor in Iraq.  Not much in the way of "critical analysis" credentials.  The fact of the matter is that he is an ex-serving malcontent with a huge chip on his shoulder.  Do a search for his posts on this site and form your own judgements.  His perceptions WRT what is right and wrong with the current CF are indelibly coloured by his own rather narrow and outdated experiences.

Better yet, "Mr Shannon" purports to condemn the current Canadian efforts in Afghanistan all the while working as a US-sanctioned security contractor in support of "G.W. Bush's illegal war" in Iraq.  I would hope that the manifest irony and self-defeating contradictions of "Mr Shannon's" current employment are not entirely lost on the CGN constituency..... 

All of the above to say, "disregard".  He is a half-baked and ill-informed malcontent who managed to get himself published at the National Post's misguided expense in seeking "contrary views". 

Not to mention the fact that he won't even post here (or elsewhere) under his real name.  OPSEC?  I don't think so.  Unless you subscribe to his rather peculiar and totally unwarranted sense of "James Bondishness".

Trust me - it is time to move along.  There is nothing to see here..... 
 
Holy crappola, that was well put.  Quite funny when you brought the irony and hypocracy into it.  Maybe YOU should write for the newspaper, and not just a letter, but a column.
I was not totally sure what that profile link was for, so I searched around and I did indeed notice that he was not exactly the most well informed, or prolific writer on this website.
Thanks for clearing that up, and not shooting me down in any area where I could have been wrong.
I will heed your order, or suggestion and "Move along".
 
I only put the link up because, unlike Mark C, I only had second-hand knowledge of "Michael Shannon".
[ strangly enough it wasn't as nice as Mark's]
;)

 
Back
Top