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Saving NATO II

Fair enough, D&B, but NATO is there, the Europeans and we North Americans signed up for it and, now, it has a role again. Europe has been slacking off ... as have the North Americans, to be fair. But we, the North Americans, need a peaceful, prosperous Europe ~ we have 'skin' in this game, too. We are most likely to force a Russian climb down if we all act, firmly and in concert.
 
2 for 2 ERC.

On both the role of NATO and the need/opportunity to boost Canada's military budget.

3 for 3 if I include the AIP subs.

One of the more interesting aspects of these discussions is that at the same time I hear members arguing for more money to support increased numbers, better training, heavier equipment I also hear many of the same voices arguing against taking any actions that might actually justify those expenditures.

The AIPs and the AOPSs, together with the entire RCAF inventory, satellites and UAVs at least have the merit of being employable in the only place we are even remotely likely to be at risk: the Arctic.

LAVs, Leopards and SPHs are unlikely to be employed in Canada in their primary role.  The only place a Mech Brigade is likely to find employment is in places like Eastern Europe or Iran or Korea.

If we are going to stay home then buy more Hercs, more Chinooks and Bvs.  The RCN can also take a greater share of the defence budget and, along with the RCAF, take the lead in foreign diplomacy and crisis response.
 
Kirkhill said:
2 for 2 ERC.

On both the role of NATO and the need/opportunity to boost Canada's military budget.

3 for 3 if I include the AIP subs.

One of the more interesting aspects of these discussions is that at the same time I hear members arguing for more money to support increased numbers, better training, heavier equipment I also hear many of the same voices arguing against taking any actions that might actually justify those expenditures.

The AIPs and the AOPSs, together with the entire RCAF inventory, satellites and UAVs at least have the merit of being employable in the only place we are even remotely likely to be at risk: the Arctic.

LAVs, Leopards and SPHs are unlikely to be employed in Canada in their primary role.  The only place a Mech Brigade is likely to find employment is in places like Eastern Europe or Iran or Korea.

If we are going to stay home then buy more Hercs, more Chinooks and Bvs.  The RCN can also take a greater share of the defence budget and, along with the RCAF, take the lead in foreign diplomacy and crisis response.

Goodness me... would we even dare to suggest the reforming of an Airborne Brigade?  :eek:
 
daftandbarmy said:
Goodness me... would we even dare to suggest the reforming of an Airborne Brigade?  :eek:

Well, possibly.  And maybe even some Marines .... just to maintain order on board of course. ;D
 
I spotted this opinion piece from Strategy Page dated 31 Aug 2014 on Facebook re the state of the European NATO nations' preparedness. It is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provision of the Copyright Act. I am not sure how much credence to give it, but one suspects there are a few grains of truth hidden inside the chaff of accusations.

Murphy's Law: NATO Sort Of Willing But Not Really Ready

August 31, 2014: The recent ISIL (al Qaeda in Iraq and Syria) misbehavior (mass murder and so on) in Syria and Iraq has caused a public uproar in Europe and generated demands that NATO send forces to try and stop all the killing. The German government responded on August 20th with a pledge to send weapons to the Kurds who are fighting ISIL in northern Iraq. But Germany was reluctant to send warplanes or troops. A few days later a German Defense Ministry readiness report was leaked and it made it clear why even getting weapons to the Kurds would be difficult. The report showed that only 8 percent of 109 Eurofighter (similar to the U.S. F-15), 11 percent of 67 CH-53 transport helicopters, and 10 percent of 33 NH90 helicopters were fully operational (not sidelined for upgrades, repairs or other problems.) However 38 percent of 56 C-160 twin turboprop transports were available. This made it possible to fly some weapons into northern Iraq, but not much else. Normally a combat ready military has at least half, and more normally over 70 percent of its warplanes ready to go. While this situation shocked many, those who have followed European military trends since the 1980s were not surprised.

The problem is that the European NATO members never spent as heavily on their armed forces as did the United States and Russia, especially after 1991. Britain and France are still heavy spenders, but not enough to make up for what the rest of European NATO members are not doing. European NATO members are aware of this problem, but it has never been a high enough national priority to actually fix.

There was some hope in the decade after September 11, 2001 as the need to deal with international Islamic terrorism changed the armed forces of Europe in unexpected ways. More money was spent on the military and many of the troops got some combat experience. Now the Europeans have more capable and professional forces than they have had for many decades. None of this was expected. But in the last few years these changes have begun to fade. Thus the shocking readiness numbers for German aircraft.

The current mess began in 1991 with the end of the Cold War. Europe was, for the first time in nearly a century, truly at peace. There was no military threat. There were some Islamic terrorists, but that lot didn't have an army. They were considered a public safety, not a military, threat. It was a unique situation in European history, and European generals and politicians had a hard time trying to get their heads wrapped around it.

There were potential military threats, but nothing in the immediate future that required a large force. There was peacekeeping, and that's what the Europeans were trying to organize for. That, however, was found to cost a lot of money. The post-Cold War military budgets could not support the traditional type forces and the new peacekeeper ones as well. But the idea of disposing of ancient military traditions and organizations that created combat ready troops was, well, hard to accept. But that’s what happened.

All this post-Cold War euphoria began to unravel a few years into the 1990s, when war broke out in the Balkans (as multi-Ethnic Yugoslavia came apart). Now some European nations found themselves involved with military operations for the first time since World War II. When that happened, deficiencies become very obvious. It happened again, when forces were sent to Afghanistan and Iraq. Later, the problem reappeared when European peacekeeping forces went to Darfur and Chad. European nations found their troops were not in shape, not trained and not equipped for combat. After over a decade of these hassles, the Europeans have adapted, sort of.

For example, in 2008 the German parliament was in an uproar over a report depicting German soldiers as physically unfit for military service. It was found that 40 percent of the troops were overweight, compared to 35 percent of their civilian counterparts (of the same gender and age). The investigation also found that the troops exercised less (including participation in sports), and smoked more (70 percent of them) than their civilian counterparts. The military now encourages sports and physical fitness, and discourages smoking, but those efforts did not appear to be working.

When other Europeans looked around they found that it was not just a German problem. It was worse than that. Most European military organizations were basically make-work programs. It's long been known that many European soldiers are not really fit for action. They are mainly uniformed civil servants. One reason many are not ready for combat, or even peacekeeping, operations, is that they don't have the equipment or the training. And that's because up-to-date gear, and training, are expensive. A disproportionate amount of money is spent on payroll. That keeps the unemployment rate down more effectively than buying needed equipment, or paying for the fuel and spare parts needed to support training.

Britain is the only real exception, with armed forces capable of going into action at any time. But even that capability is under attack, as British politicians try to emulate other European nations, and save money by creating hollow forces that are there, but cannot really do much. Britain is becoming more like other large European states, with a small force capable of going overseas, and little more. In this respect, Britain would become more like France, which has some special units (like the Foreign Legion and Paratrooper units) ready for overseas emergencies. Most nations have small special operations (commando) units. But most European troops were not capable of fighting back in the 1990s.

European NATO troops that went to Afghanistan (where most of them went, Iraq being politically incorrect for most Europeans) quickly adapted. Money was found to properly equip the troops. Some governments took another approach and ordered their troops to avoid combat as much as possible. In some cases, the troops rarely left their heavily defended camps. All this was to avoid too much attention being paid to how much better U.S., British, Canadian and Australian (the “fighting nations”) were prepared for combat. Despite this, everyone quickly learned that you cannot bluff your way through military preparedness. That kind of pretending always ends badly when the shooting starts.

Faking military preparedness is a hard habit for Europeans to break. That’s because, from 1945 to 1991, the United States was available whenever Europeans needed some real military muscle. So confident were the Europeans, that they often heaped abuse and scorn on the U.S. and the American military, certain that the Americans would still show up if Europe ever faced a threat. But in the last decade the Europeans found that at least in military matters the Americans had not only become the masters, but were increasingly unhappy with European doubletalk and ingratitude. It’s been suggested that Europeans ought to pay more attention to defending themselves. That change is still sinking in, and is not being received with much enthusiasm. But European nations did scrape together enough forces in 2011 to help the Libyan rebels overthrow the local dictator. Even so the U.S. was still needed for a lot of the logistical and technical support. That was a start. No to one’s surprise trying to do the same against Russian aggression revealed that there’s not enough NATO military strength to stop naked aggression right next door or in the Middle East.
 
I would much rather see them deploy forces to the Ukraine.
 
tomahawk6 said:
I would much rather see them deploy forces to the Ukraine.

So would this guy:

Vladimir Putin’s boots are on the ground – why not ours?

Publicly ruling out any military option against Russia has emboldened it to interfere in Ukraine

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir-putin/11068109/Vladimir-Putins-boots-are-on-the-ground-why-not-ours.html
 
daftandbarmy said:
So would this guy:

Vladimir Putin’s boots are on the ground – why not ours?

Publicly ruling out any military option against Russia has emboldened it to interfere in Ukraine

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir-putin/11068109/Vladimir-Putins-boots-are-on-the-ground-why-not-ours.html

While I don't think any western European, or NATO leader for that matter has the balls to back any of their words up, we are trying to talk tough while slashing defense spending, not targeting certain sectors of the russian economy because it will hurt ours. In my opinion if we show putin we are willing to hurt our selves (economically) to hurt Russia he may start to have second thoughts
 
Without US backing even NATO would be like the EU.If the US won't put boots on the ground how can we expect anyone else to.At this point in history I wish we had a Reagan in the White House.Until then Putin will take what he wants.
 
tomahawk6 said:
Without US backing even NATO would be like the EU.  If the US won't put boots on the ground how can we expect anyone else to.At this point in history I wish we had a Reagan in the White House.Until then Putin will take what he wants.

It seems that the EU members have for the last few decades, relied more on "Five Eyes" members to carry the team, with the US, and UK, always being the major contributors; and EU members filling token roles.  Not that Canada hasn't been as strong a contributor in recent history, as well, but still able to supply a little more than a token show when called upon. 

The 'Fall of the Wall' triggered drastic cuts in the militaries and their capabilities in all NATO and EU countries.
 
I am talking about the European lack of will with regard to Russia.Maybe its because Putin can turn off their electricity and or heat.
 
tomahawk6 said:
I am talking about the European lack of will with regard to Russia.Maybe its because Putin can turn off their electricity and or heat.

I would tend to think that Europe with its North Sea wells and other sources, is much like North America with all our oil reserves; importing oil from off shore sources only not to deplete their own resources, and to promote Foreign Trade. 
 
Ok so where is the collective will in the EU to protect their turf so to speak ?Putin is thinking that no one is going to stand up to him outside of the Ukraine.He did make the off the cuff comment that he could take Kiev in a few weeks.He probably isnt too far off the mark,except what would be the cost ?
 
There is no coherent collective will in Europe; a reflection of what we see in the UN.
 
George Wallace said:
There is no coherent collective will in Europe; a reflection of what we see in the UN.

Which is why the UK will never join the EU. They are all perpetually under one kind of the Damocletian sword or another with no collective will to govern wisely regardless.

Thank Gawd for the English Channel: the world's largest tank trap  :nod:

"During my lifetime most of the problems the world has faced have come, in one fashion or other, from mainland Europe, and the solutions from outside it." -- Margaret Thatcher

"If the Europeans truly wish to improve their NATO contribution they can show it simply enough. They can establish professional armed forces, like those of the UK. And they can acquire more advanced technology. Indeed, unless that happens soon the gulf between the European and US capabilities will yawn so wide that it will not be possible to share the same battlefield. Alas, I do not think that sharing battlefields with our American friends - but rather disputing global primacy with them - is what European defence plans are truly about." -- Margaret Thatcher

"(A unified) 'Europe' is the result of plans. It is, in fact, a classic utopian project, a monument to the vanity of intellectuals, a programme whose inevitable destiny is failure: only the scale of the final damage done is in doubt." -- Margaret Thatcher

http://www.margaretthatcher.tv/The_Best_Quotes.html
 
A split within NATO?

Reuters

U.S. defense chief voices fear of north-south NATO divide

By David Alexander and Adrian Croft

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - U.S. Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel expressed concern on Thursday about a possible north-south divide in NATO and urged the alliance to tackle multiple security issues at once rather than focusing on only one.

Hagel, making his final appearance at NATO as U.S. defense chief, said the alliance faced several challenges, including violent extremism on its southern rim, Russian aggression in Ukraine and training security forces in Afghanistan.

"I am very concerned by the suggestion that this alliance can choose to focus on only one of these areas as our top priority," Hagel told a news conference. "And I worry about the potential for division between our northern and southern allies."

(...SNIPPED)
 
2 notable updates: Wouldn't the 1st update rankle Serbia as well, not just Russia?

CNN

NATO formally invites Montenegro to join alliance, rankling Russia
Greg Botelho-Profile-Image

By Greg Botelho, CNN

(CNN)NATO has formally invited Montenegro to join the alliance, a move that's spurred threats from Russian officials at loggerheads with NATO over everything from Ukraine to Syria to Turkey's downing of a Russian warplane.

The official invitation, announced Wednesday by NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg, triggers the start of accession talks, according to the alliance.

While it comes at a time of heightened tensions between NATO and Russia, it didn't happen out of the blue; it's the result of a process that began nine years ago.

(...SNIPPED)

Diplomat

NATO Looking to Extend Funding for Afghan Security Forces

As the war moves into its 15th year, Afghanistan’s stability remains tenuous.

Putz_Catherine
By Catherine Putz
December 02, 2015

The plan was to be out of Afghanistan by now, but reality rarely matches timetables. Now, NATO is looking to maintain troop levels through next year and extend its funding of the Afghan security forces to 2020.

In 2011, the plan was to steadily drawdown U.S. and NATO forces in Afghanistan and hand over the mission in 2014 to the Afghans. While U.S. and NATO troops managed to shift into a supporting role and a new mission with a new name took over in 2015 the timetable continues to stretch along. In May 2014, U.S. President Barack Obama stood in the White House’s Rose Garden and announced that by the end of 2016, only a vestigial force of Americans would remain in Afghanistan. A year and a half later, the plan changed again. In October 2015, Obama announced that the U.S. would maintain the 9,800 U.S. forces currently in country through “most of 2016” and 5,500 through 2017.

According to Reuters, NATO says it will have about 12,000 troops in Afghanistan through 2016 — 7,000 U.S. forces and 5,000 from NATO and non-NATO partner nations.

(...SNIPPED)
 
Resurecting this thread because I believe this is the best place  to post this:

NATO CHIEF EXPECTS OK FOR GREATER FORWARD PRESENCE
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/N/NATO?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

This is an article from today dealing with how the defense ministers of the NATO nations plan on approving plans to increase the presence of NATO in the Eastern Europe by rotating a multinational brigade size unit that would rotate through Eastern Europe allies.

Thoughts?


 
Anti-smuggling ops: another role for today's NATO:

Defense News

NATO To Backfill AWACS, Assist Europe With Migrants
By Aaron Mehta, Defense News 8:21 a.m. EST February 11, 2016


BRUSSELS — NATO has agreed in principle to use its fleet of E-3A AWACS to backfill national requirements, in order to free up nations to use their own capacity in the fight against the Islamic State group, commonly known as ISIS or ISIL.

The alliance will also immediately task its Standing Maritime Group 2 to the Aegean sea to monitor the flow of migrants fleeing Syria, as part of a plan put forth by Greece, Turkey and Germany.

(...SNIPPED)
 
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