Robocall et al issue - Fed 2011 election

[a_majoor]

There do seem to be lots of unknowns with this story, a full investigation is needed (and not the sort the Media likes to do):

http://diogenesborealis.blogspot.com/2012/02/something-doesnt-make-sense-in-robocall.html

Something doesn't make sense in the robocall "scandal"

There's something fishy about the voter fraud "scandal" that bothers me. The Toronto Star reported today that former employees of a Thunder Bay call centre have come forward claiming that they were hired to call voters in several ridings and deliberately misdirect them to non-existent polling stations. Here's part of the Star's story:

    One former RMG employee, a woman aged 24, said she thought at the time that the incorrect polling station addresses coming up on her screen were simply a “computer glitch,” so she started advising people they should check with Elections Canada to be sure.

    “We’re not going to give them the wrong information on purpose,” she said.

    She remembered the polling station script specifically instructed the callers to identify themselves as calling “on behalf of” the Conservative Party, “but not every call centre agent said it.”

    Calls were auto-dialled by computer. Once an individual got on the line, the live agents started to read from prepared scripts. Depending on the answers, they moved on to another part of the script.

    As each call ended, the computer auto-dialled the next number. The calls went to ridings across Canada; two employees said most calls went to Ontario ridings.

This is the part that doesn't make any sense: "She remembered the polling station script specifically instructed the callers to identify themselves as calling “on behalf of” the Conservative Party". If the Conservative Party of Canada was involved in a complicated scheme to fraudulently suppress the vote in an attempt to influence the outcome of the election, knowing full well that such a move was illegal and likely to blow up into a full blown scandal if discovered, why would Conservative agents instruct the callers to "identify themselves as calling on behalf of the Conservative Party?" If Harper is the evil genius that everyone says he is, why would he deliberately leave a trail leading directly back to the party?

Doesn't it make more sense that someone hostile to the CPC and intent on causing mischief in the election which could be later linked to the Conservatives would instruct the call centre to identify themselves as acting on behalf of the CPC?

Something smells about this whole story.

 

[Kalatzi]

with that I'm truly sorry.

Let me be clear:

This is the first modern election that this SEEMS to have hapened in.

I Suggest that it is an all our best intesrests that due process be seen to be done.

I challenge you to tell me that voter supprssion tactics are not used in the states.

I say again that I do not fell that this is busineess as usual.

I agree that other parties may be involved.

Dirty tricks are not ethical

Purporting to represnt oneself as iElections Canada is Illegal

The majoirty of cooment on this thread has been let's see.

Likely free agents caring this out

I say again - I agree.

Business as usual - NO - let's get this sorted out, for everyone's sake

As many have noted, and I sincerly wish, this is a tempest in tepaot.

Hopefully a useful one.

 

[armyvern]

with that I'm truly sorry.

Let me be clear:

This is the first modern election that this SEEMS to have hapened in.

I Suggest that it is an all our best intesrests that due process be seen to be done.

I challenge you to tell me that voter supprssion tactics are not used in the states.

I say again that I do not fell that this is busineess as usual.

I agree that other parties may be involved.

Dirty tricks are not ethical

Purporting to represnt oneself as iElections Canada is Illegal

The majoirty of cooment on this thread has been let's see.

Likely free agents caring this out

I say again - I agree.

Business as usual - NO - let's get this sorted out, for everyone's sake

As many have noted, and I sincerly wish, this is a tempest in tepaot.

Hopefully a useful one.

I see now where you were coming from. I believe that Recceguy, myself, and the others are referring to "business as usual in Parliament" needs to go on without the wishwash of tossing accusations such as is occuring there right now due to this.

By all means, investigate and get to the bottom of it, through the law and those proper forums for conducting investigations.

If and when those findings show that any party or elected individual had a hand in or knowledge of said activity, then let the hammer fall where it may. Until that investigation is done though, our elected officials should get to damn work doing real work. That's all we're saying.

 

[Kalatzi]

Thank you

Its easy to let feelings run high.  On so many things.

This one is one of the most important


Best wishes to all

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Thank you

Its easy to let feelings run high.  On so many things.

This one is one of the most important


Best wishes to all

It's only one of the most important to some, like yourself.

Especially those that still can't come to grips with a Tory majority and will leave no rock unturned in their quest for PM Harper's, supposed, hidden agenda.

More important than Airbus? More important than Adscam?

No. These sort of scandals plague every government, especially when you have a bloodthirsty, minority Opposition.

This latest has no where in government now that the accusations have been made.

It's time for everyone to shut up and let the outside investigators do their job.

There is more important House business, other that listening to a bunch of MP's whinge and whine about what the Government "MIGHT" have done. All the time without proof of any sort whatsoever.

Anything said by these MP's now is doing nothing but detracting from other agenda items that deserve the House's full attention.

Shut up and let the investigation be properly conducted by the investigators.

The story only has legs because of the press and people like yourself.

If you want an avian analogy, instead of canaries in the mine, I suggest you go read the story of Chicken Little.

Feel free to continue your handwringing.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Here's a motion that everyone agreed to yesterday in the House of Commons (also in Journal, attached):

By unanimous consent, it was resolved, — That this House call on all Members to provide Elections Canada and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) with any and all information they have on voter suppression and illegal phoning during the last election; offer its full support to both the Commissioner of Canada Elections and the RCMP in their investigations into these despicable practices; and, call on all parties to immediately hand over any and all documents requested or required by the authorities to assist in their investigation.

Agree with those worrying this could be big, but also agree with those saying "let's get on with governing the country while the investigators investigate" - there ARE other fish to fry here.

 

[Edward Campbell]

And this, the project discussed in this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail, is the "business" with which parliament ought to be dealing:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/voters-primed-and-ready-for-deep-tory-spending-cuts-poll-finds/article2352039/

Voters ‘primed and ready’ for deep Tory spending cuts, poll finds

BILL CURRY

OTTAWA— Globe and Mail Update
Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2012

Canadians appear to be in a bloodthirsty mood as the Conservative government prepares its cost-cutting 2012 budget.

Fully 74 per cent of those surveyed in a new poll by Nanos Research want to see cuts that are deeper than the 5-per-cent reduction Ottawa has set as its minimum target for federal departments.

The 2012 budget will reveal the overall results of a government-wide exercise focused on the roughly $80-billion Ottawa spends each year on direct program spending.

Yet recent signals from the Conservative government suggest deep cuts aren't coming. Rather the budget is expected to outline broad savings in line with previous pledges while providing limited details as to what will actually be cut.

The random online survey of 1,001 Canadians – weighted to match the latest census results – found broad support for spending reductions.

The survey asked whether respondents agreed with the federal government’s plans to generate at least $4-billion in ongoing annual savings by 2014. Roughly six in 10 of the respondents either agreed or somewhat agreed with the plan.

When asked for their preferred percentage for targeted cuts, the survey found just over 30 per cent called for cuts that are deeper than 20 per cent.

“I think what this shows is Canadians are primed and ready for government restraint,” said pollster Nik Nanos. However, he cautioned that “the devil is in the details” and support for cuts will likely wane when Canadians are confronted with what they will mean in practice.

The $80-billion envelope of spending that is targeted for cuts includes areas where restraint could be controversial. Wages and benefits for public servants fall into this category, as does agricultural support, capital expenses, international aid, peacekeeping, border infrastructure and public safety. The category also includes social spending on aboriginal education and health research, immigrant support and official languages programs.

The responses to the Nanos Research survey describe a far more aggressive mood than the government’s own polling has uncovered. The Privy Council Office recently released a December, 2011 report by Walker Consulting Group that found support for 5-per-cent cuts, but some concern about deeper measures.

“Some felt the deficit was manageable at this time, and that reducing the deficit too aggressively in the face of global economic hardship might have a dampening effect on the economy, and may yield widespread cuts to programs and services like health care (for which there was no appetite),” states the report , which was based on a mix of phone surveys and focus groups across the country.

As February comes to an end this week, Finance Minister Jim Flaherty has yet to announce the date when he will release the 2012 budget. The budget covers the fiscal year that starts April 1.

There is no shortage of conflicting advice for the minister when it comes to how aggressively he should cut. Some Conservative MPs are pushing privately and publicly for deep cuts – including ending funding for the CBC.

Meanwhile, numerous economists have made public comments recently urging the minister not to cut more aggressively than planned, warning that deep cuts at the federal level piled on top of provincial spending restraint could harm Canada’s economic recovery.

Meanwhile, the Good Grey Globe also reports that the Conservatives bank on robo-call storm blowing itself out ~ which, absent a real smoking gun, is the most likely outcome.

The real problems facing Canada, right now, are economic not political. Yes, we do have problems with the partisan political processes; we also have problems with elementary democracy: issues like equality of representation (why does a vote in PEI carry almost four times as much electoral weight as one in Calgary or Toronto?) and an appointed legislative chambre. Robocalling, the electoral equivalent of spoofing, is small change.

I understand why Nycole Tremel and Bob Rae want to talk about robocalling, they are, or ought to be, embarrassed by their views on the economy which are sophomoric and populist and dangerous for Canada; being part of the problem, they don't want to discuss the solution.

 

[Kalatzi]

"More important than Airbus? More important than Adscam?"

Potentially - Yes.  Fair elections are the basis of democracy.

It trumps the other business of government.

Again, I wonder what would be happening if the situation were reversed?

John Baird et al  would have something they  could really yell about.  >

OTOH This could be small change - Ibbotsen in the Globe makes the point that many of the alleged ridings were either
A: won by the opposition anyway OR
B:  won by the Conservatives in a landslide

in either case that tactic didn't work.

PM Harper's supposed hidden agenda? He is allegedly quoted as making a statement to the effect of by time he is finsished with Canada, one won't be able to recognize it.

The people behind this, whomever they may be, are counting on time, general apathy, and patrisan politics to make this go away.

I for one do not intend to give them that opportunity.

Recceguy. Neither of us are going to change the others opinions, I think.

Perhaps we should call a truce on this.

 

[RangerRay]

If this was a concerted effort on the part of the Tories, it appears that it was not well thought out.  According to Chantal Hebert, it appears that most of the calls were either in Tory strong holds, or in ridings where the Tories had little hope of winning.  It doesn't make sense to employ such a tactic in these ridings.  It also sounds like the NDP used robocalls to spam the office of Lise St. Denis, who left the NDP for the Liberals.

We'll have to wait and see what the investigation turns up.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1137648--hebert-robo-call-accusations-raise-uncomfortable-questions

Hébert: Robo-call accusations raise uncomfortable questions

By Chantal Hébert National Columnist


MONTREAL—If there is a tactical scheme behind the so-called voter suppression scandal, it is not readily apparent in the list of allegedly abused ridings put forward by the opposition parties.

Only a small fraction of the 50 federal seats where the margin of victory was less than 5 per cent last May — and where presumably every vote counted — are alleged to have been targeted by fraudulent calls.

Liberal ridings such as Brampton-Springdale and Ajax-Pickering that were known to be high on the Conservatives’ to-win list (and that they did win) were apparently not plagued by such calls.

On the other hand, a substantial number of the three dozen ridings on the opposition list were safe Conservative seats.

Take the Ontario riding of Wellington-Halton Hills. On May 2, former Conservative minister Michael Chong kept the seat with a majority of 26,000 and 63 per cent of the vote. He clearly needed no help to get re-elected.

Chong has emerged as one of the least partisan voices in Parliament. He resigned from Stephen Harper’s first cabinet over a matter of principle. It is hard to imagine that he would have countenanced party-sanctioned dirty tricks in his riding.

In Simcoe-Grey, the Conservatives won by more than 20,000 votes and the aggrieved Liberals ran fourth, behind the NDP and former Conservative incumbent Helena Guergis.

In the Toronto riding of Parkdale-High Park, both opposition parties have complained that their supporters were victims of early morning or late night calls from people misrepresenting themselves as volunteers for their campaigns. In Davenport, the NDP reported the same complaint.

The Conservatives did not really have a dog in either fight. They ran a distant third in both ridings.

And then did Justice Minister Rob Nicholson (majority 16,000 +) or Conservative incumbent Rick Dykstra (majority 13,000 +) seriously need a dose of dark arts to hang on their Niagara Falls and St. Catharines ridings?

A Machiavellian mastermind could always have orchestrated fraudulent calls to a host of ridings where such tricks were unlikely to affect the outcome for or against the Conservatives just to throw anyone off the scent of an orchestrated pattern.

But that sounds like a high-risk investment for a relatively low yield. The Conservative vote is not noticeably more vigorous in the ridings where the opposition is alleging that fraudulent calls took place than in comparable ones.

That is not to say that something is not rotten about the state of Canada’s electoral democracy or that the ruling Conservatives have no responsibility in that deteriorated state. But they are not alone.

Under Stephen Harper, the Conservatives have pushed the line of what is considered fair game in partisan politics.

It now basically sits on the divide between what is legal and what is not. The evidence suggests that the closer parties play to that line, the greater the chances that some of their partisans will cross it.

The Liberals just learned that the hard way when it was found that one of their staffers was responsible for leaking details of Public Safety Minister Vic Toews’ private life on Twitter.

Too often, the opposition has been prompt to follow the Conservatives down the same slippery slope.

On that score, the addiction of all federal parties to robo-calling is a telling development.

A technique originally used to dispense useful information to prospective supporters is being turned into an instrument of harassment.

When MP Lise St-Denis left the NDP to sit as a Liberal in January, the New Democrats hired a firm to robo-call her constituents of Saint-Maurice-Champlain.

The NDP was not identified as the sponsor of the calls and recipients were not told that if they pressed 1 to signal their displeasure with St-Denis, they would be re-directed to her riding office — where they swamped the phone lines for a number of days.

There is nothing illegal about the ploy and NDP strategists profess to be totally comfortable with it.

But should it have its place an ethically moral political environment?

Throwing rocks at the Conservatives with one hand will achieve little for the common good if the opposition parties are busy expanding their own glass houses with the other.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

"More important than Airbus? More important than Adscam?"

Potentially - Yes.  Fair elections are the basis of democracy.

It trumps the other business of government.

Again, I wonder what would be happening if the situation were reversed?

John Baird et al  would have something they  could really yell about.  >

OTOH This could be small change - Ibbotsen in the Globe makes the point that many of the alleged ridings were either
A: won by the opposition anyway OR
B:  won by the Conservatives in a landslide

in either case that tactic didn't work.

PM Harper's supposed hidden agenda? He is allegedly quoted as making a statement to the effect of by time he is finsished with Canada, one won't be able to recognize it.

The people behind this, whomever they may be, are counting on time, general apathy, and patrisan politics to make this go away.

I for one do not intend to give them that opportunity.

Recceguy. Neither of us are going to change the others opinions, I think.

Perhaps we should call a truce on this.

No need. I have no axe to grind, especially with the workings of our majority government.

Unlike other people that can't, or won't, see past the nose on their face about what is really important and topical.

I also have an aversion to misguided people that make mountains out of mole hills, especially when the point they're trying to make has no proven point in fact.

I, typically, ignore them anyway.

 

[Scott]

How many of these allegations have been proven?

Just more fighting over the steering of the bandwagon thus far, methinks.

kalatzi, give it a rest

 

[FSTO]

The man who ran the conservative war room responds in Maclean's

http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/02/28/whos-calling-the-conservatives/#more-242631

Of course if you are predisposed to think the Conservatives are spawn of satan then you will discount his explanation. If you are bit more sane then his points have merit.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The man who ran the conservative war room responds in Maclean's

http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/02/28/whos-calling-the-conservatives/#more-242631

Of course if you are predisposed to think the Conservatives are spawn of satan then you will discount his explanation. If you are bit more sane then his points have merit.

DO NOT read the comments if you value your sanity. You will have your common sense sucked through your ears and you will only be stupider for having read them.

They prove the adage that some people are only alive because it's illegal to kill them.

 

[Scott]

Just more fodder for the people pissed off that the vote compass and polls didn't work. That is all this is.

I'll keep waiting for that smoking gun. Sadly, conjecture is enough for most.

 

[Kalatzi]

A bit more background. I still can't understand why this has taken so long to get to the forefront.

Here is a link http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/second-reading/bruce-anderson/do-conservatives-now-think-they-have-carte-blanche-on-dirty-tricks/article2274378/

Please note the article is dated Dec 16, 2011

Here are some quoutes reproduced under the fair use provision of the copyright act:
"There’s disappointment, and understandably so, that House of Commons Speaker Andrew Scheer didn’t find that Liberal MP Irwin Cotler’s privilege as an MP was abused by the Conservative phone skullduggery carried out in his riding.

No doubt there are legitimate precedents Mr. Scheer was able to draw on to come to the conclusion he did. But it is also fair to wonder, since he called the behaviour in question “reprehensible,” if another finding wasn’t also within his reach. ...

People of whatever political stripe who care about reasonable conduct in Canada’s political life might want to press on with a couple of outstanding questions.

1. Does the leadership of the Conservative Party interpret the ruling as carte blanche to do more of this kind of “wet-work”? If this tactic were carried out on a broader scale, would anyone really think it is nothing more than sporting politics  ...

2. Do other leading Conservatives share the views of Government House Leader Peter Van Loan, who said that the calls made into Mr. Cotler’s riding were vital free speech and a sign of good health in our democracy? If Mr. Van Loan truly is speaking for cabinet… well, that would be kind of frightening. If not, he should seek an opportunity to step back from that argument and acknowledge that a line was crossed ...

This tactic and the risible defence offered by Mr. Van Loan shames them. Over more than two decades, I’ve listened to thousands of people in focus groups. I doubt if I’ve run into more than a handful who think this kind of “kill or be killed” ethos is what they are looking for from their representatives in Ottawa. I know plenty of Conservatives, including many who enjoy bare-knuckle politics; I've yet to hear one of them echo Mr. Van Loan's defence in this matter. ...

Shining a light on, and calling out this behaviour is important, and it's great that a significant number of news organizations and journalists have devoted more time and ink to it. Despite the frenetic pace of the modern news cycle, this kind of politics deserves more than the equivalent of a two-minute minor, or else the clutching, grabbing and slashing will grow worse – and the interest of voters shrink even more."

Please note - The above refers to one incident

I still have an open mind.

I also feel that the article provides some useful background information.

I share the concerns of the Author, for the effects of this KIND of behaviour by ANYONE on our democratic process.

 

[ModlrMike]

I think you're building a foundation for your beliefs that has the consistency of meringue, and is just about as half baked.

 

[Scott]

A bit more background. I still can't understand why this has taken so long to get to the forefront.

Convenience? Spin? Um...political gain?

I still have an open mind.

Yeah. Talk is cheap.

I share the concerns of the Author, for the effects of this KIND of behaviour by ANYONE on our democratic process.

WE GET IT. Kalatzi MAAAAD. You need not rev the outrage bus, we know it's been started.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Kalatzi:  You're not the only one concerned - others, though, are willing to wait to see what the investigations root out.

 

[Kalatzi]

Here is what I think is an interesting follow on piece to my last post

Here is the link http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/dirty-tricks-poison-the-electoral-well-all-parties-need-detox/article2279354/

Please note that it was published on Dec 21 - another busy news cycle. Was Norad Tracking Santa yet?

Here are some more horribly biased quotesd - please feel free to shield your eyes lest your head explode 

Reproduced under the fair use provision of the copyriight act

:The key question that looms over contemporary Canadian politics is this: Do you need to behave horribly in order to get elected? The answer is: No, but it sure seems to help. ...

It is important to note there is no inherent partisan claim to this recipe. Certainly, any party is capable of employing these tactics ... "

Note this is a reply to the previos finding of the speaker in my previos post

"In responding to the matter, the Speaker of the House of Commons termed the practice “reprehensible” – a charge that Nick Kouvalis, principal of Campaign Research, the polling firm involved, rebuffed energetically when he appeared on CTV's National Affairs. The strategist also offered a spirited justification of his company’s political work, invoking a brand of “you-tooism” to suggest that all parties are equally complicit, albeit perhaps not equally skilled in these modern black arts. He also boasted openly and accurately that he gets winning results for his clients.  ...

Still, when Mr. Kouvalis ended the interview by insisting that even I would use his company in the face of an election, I was forced to reply with an immediate and definite no.

Here’s why: We are fouling our own nests. Political professionals are pursuing a course of conduct that is causing tangible trauma to the body politic. Voter apathy is at an all-time high. Turnout at the ballot box is at an all-time low. And people regard their political leaders unjustly in terms usually reserved for those facing prison time.

Still, when Mr. Kouvalis ended the interview by insisting that even I would use his company in the face of an election, I was forced to reply with an immediate and definite no.

Here’s why: We are fouling our own nests. Political professionals are pursuing a course of conduct that is causing tangible trauma to the body politic. Voter apathy is at an all-time high. Turnout at the ballot box is at an all-time low. And people regard their political leaders unjustly in terms usually reserved for those facing prison time.

Blame Nick Kouvalis and his ilk if you like. But that would be unfair. They merely respond to what we, as a political culture, tolerate. The real sin lies in permitting a system that incentivizes misbehavior and disrespect.

There is a remedy: Political parties must constrain their own impulse toward excess. If campaign strategists favour military analogies, then let us consider the possibility it is time for an armistice.

...

Prior to the next election, a public compact should be joined by all major political parties – a voluntary but mutually binding agreement. It need not overreach or be so ambitious that it defies reasonable concurrence. It should be kept short and simple to encourage implementation.

That’s not naïve. Or unrealistic. Or too much to expect. And if you think it is then, frankly, you just might be part of the problem."

BTW Who is Nick Kouvalis - he is the  strategist that ran "Ford Village" saddling Toronto with our world famous two-headed hoser mayor.

I apologize in digressing in that last remark.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Kalatzi - We get it.  You're outraged.  Many worry about potential acts that affect people's voting.  You're not alone.  Thank you.  Maybe we should trust the investigative process now that Elections Canada and the Mounties are getting involved?

A friendly warning:  you don't need to share any more historic articles with us to show how important you think this issue is.  We understand.

Milnet.ca Staff