Replacing the Subs

[JMCanada]

The Israel subs have large tubes for launching cruise missiles.

Those are in fact a sub-class of the german type 212.

At the end of the day there are 3 possible suppliers ... for each coast:

Pacific: Japan (Soryu or SS29) South Korea and Oz (Attack- variant of french barracuda).

Atlantic: Norwegian-German type 212 CD, Sweed A26, (again a conventional version of French SSN Barracuda) and Spanish S-80 plus. Actually these four are now bidding for the Dutch tender.

Most of them (if not all) are capable to deliver missiles such as TLAM, Exocet or Harpoon.

 

[Uzlu]

At the end of the day there are 3 possible suppliers ... for each coast:

Pacific: Japan (Soryu or SS29) South Korea and Oz (Attack- variant of french barracuda).

Atlantic: Norwegian-German type 212 CD, Sweed A26, (again a conventional version of French SSN Barracuda) and Spanish S-80 plus. Actually these four are now bidding for the Dutch tender.

But will the Royal Canadian Navy be interested in the S-80 Plus?  Are you perhaps suggesting that it is a good idea to operate two types of submarines?  One type for the west coast, another type for the east coast?

 

[JMCanada]

While I personally like Soryu the most, please note that delays and cost increases are not unusual in these type of projects. And those problems are solved now (by lengthening the hull). Finally the four S80 plus are to be delivered within next decade 2022-2026) at a cost of about 1.4-1.5 billion CAD each.  Then there is time to check how good (or not) they are for the RCN requirements.

And no, I am not suggesting (in the present circumstances) to have two different types of boats. There are far more CONs than PROs.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Yeah, but if they're super old and super loud, any ASW asset worth their salt will be able to detect and take them out pretty quick.  Also, who knows what their actual readiness status is.

Yet it appears they have sunk 1 SK Patrol vessel.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The Cheonan? 

Not sure I'd use that as a testament about the capability of the DPRK sub force, honestly.  An older, cold war era corvette (she's be 30 this year).  A large % of the DPRK sub fleet are old Romeo diesel boats.  I don't think they'd last too long in a shooting war, myself.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Even an older vessel may get lucky, drift with the current into a good position, use just enough propulsion for the best firing solution, let off a spread and do your best to get out of there, dying for the Great Leader is an honour.....

 

[Eye In The Sky]

It's possible...it's less likely if you have something like a modern SSN/SSK out there with computerized SONAR, fire control, etc and well-trained crews listening/watching for that one piece of info they need to classify and they don't have to 'fire a spread' when they can put one Mk48 ADCAP, Spearfish, etc in the water.  Personally, I'm pretty impressed with the Astute class. 

I think they'll get kills in a permissible environment...for a very short time.  ;D

SSKs can definitely be lethal.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I suspect our Victoria's would come back with a broom tied to the periscope if they were sent in and the NK navy/subs put to sea.

 

[JMCanada]

https://www.australiandefence.com.au/defence/sea/attack-class-plan-of-action

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/defence/submarines-project-a-220bn-disaster/news-story/ed563e92a735dfea84f8ed1adede153b
  (if it does not work, try the next one):

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/defence/submarines-project-a-220bn-disaster/news-story/ed563e92a735dfea84f8ed1adede153b&ved=2ahUKEwiSof-Nxa7mAhXkBGMBHaz2D0wQFjAAegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw3-B_dTSNpvpZer68gHp8QH

A couple of links about Aussie's submarine program. I have found them very illustrative. Wish you too.

 

[tomahawk6]

How about the UK's Astute class for Canada ?

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-astute-class-submarine-the-biggest-threat-the-russian-24837

 

[dimsum]

How about the UK's Astute class for Canada ?

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-astute-class-submarine-the-biggest-threat-the-russian-24837

It's nuclear.  That makes it a non-starter.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

How about the UK's Astute class for Canada ?

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-astute-class-submarine-the-biggest-threat-the-russian-24837

Likely it will be a Aussie or Japanese sub that would replace ours, I suspect by the time the Aussies get 3 hulls into the water, they be wondering if we want to buy in as our subs will be very long in the tooth by then. It would be nice to have a sub that is also in service with another navy, to make spares and upgrades cheaper.

 

[Underway]

Likely it will be a Aussie or Japanese sub that would replace ours, I suspect by the time the Aussies get 3 hulls into the water, they be wondering if we want to buy in as our subs will be very long in the tooth by then. It would be nice to have a sub that is also in service with another navy, to make spares and upgrades cheaper.

I honestly think that Canada would rather chew off its arm then try to do business with the French on submarine procurement.  The FREMM was self rejected because they wanted all the control and Canada doesn't do ships that way.  We have the control over the IP or its a no deal.  Similar issues with ITAR information being available to the French who would have no issues stealing that particular IP for their own devices.

Unless something changes Japanese or German submarines are probably the leader.

 

[Spencer100]

The odds are no subs.  Sorry but that is the current look of it. 

If we were serious they would be actively doing a program now.  It takes us over twenty years to buy something and get it in the water.  The sub will be self retiring with no replacement before then

 

[Uzlu]

Unless something changes Japanese or German submarines are probably the leader.

29SS and Invincible class?

 

[FSTO]

The odds are no subs.  Sorry but that is the current look of it. 

If we were serious they would be actively doing a program now.  It takes us over twenty years to buy something and get it in the water.  The sub will be self retiring with no replacement before then

If we want to know what our allies are doing in our waters we need subs to be part of the club. That is one thing the GoC is well aware of.

 

[CBH99]

I honestly think that Canada would rather chew off its arm then try to do business with the French on submarine procurement.  The FREMM was self rejected because they wanted all the control and Canada doesn't do ships that way.  We have the control over the IP or its a no deal.  Similar issues with ITAR information being available to the French who would have no issues stealing that particular IP for their own devices.

Unless something changes Japanese or German submarines are probably the leader.

In regards to the FREMM, yes.  They offered a fixed price contract for X number of ships, delivered on or before schedule.  But, as you pointed out, it came with technical conditions that weren't going to be acceptable.

That being said however, they did offer full technology and IP transfer with the Rafale offer - including 'assembled' in Canada. 


If the IP issues were sorted out, the French can offer some pretty impressive naval options at some pretty competitive timelines.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

The odds are no subs.  Sorry but that is the current look of it. 

If we were serious they would be actively doing a program now.  It takes us over twenty years to buy something and get it in the water.  The sub will be self retiring with no replacement before then

Very much doubt that.  The government will stretch the current ones out for the next 15 years and probably ramp up something very quickly.

The Government can and will act decisively when it has to. 

Btw, NORAD Agreement now extends in to Maritime Domain Awareness.  There is a 1* Canadian Submariner in NORAD right now.

I anticipate "events" will force an expansion/modernization of Canada's submarine capability.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I anticipate "events" will force an expansion/modernization of Canada's submarine capability.

Like the Arctic Ocean's 'coming out party'  :nod:

 

[YZT580]

surely someone will have some retired subs tied up in storage that we will be able to buy cheap!