Our North - SSE Policy Update Megathread

[OldSolduer]

Good point...

Why would we want to invest money into making sure the people who live up there have clean water, power, and other basic infrastructure that would be standard for most of the rest of Canada.

I mean, we've got by this far without having to divert cash from more important things like this, so no need to start now

View attachment 91307

Ok what is that???

 

[daftandbarmy]

Ok what is that???

A stark reminder that the Harper Government was bat shit crazy too...

The problem with the monument to victims of communism​

Some of 'victims' were Nazis, while some of the Communists were Jews fighting for their lives​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/the-problem-with-the-monument-to-victims-of-communism-1.3048558

 

[Furniture]

Many of who? The Rangers? Or the Inuit and Dene? And are you getting them into southern recruiting centers? We can't recruit southerners. Why not try and recruit northerners where they are?

CRPG 1 - 2000 Rangers and 1400 Junior Rangers (Cadets) from a population of 133,000.
Ranger participation rate of 2/133 = 1.5%
Junior Ranger participation rate of 1400/133,000 = 1%

If grafted on to the south

1.5% of 41,000,000 = 615,000
1% of 41,000,000 = 410,000

Do we have anything like that level of interest or participation in the south?

Prove that they want to serve in that capacity rather than complain about those of us pointing out that they didn't sign up for that.

The Rangers are not a combat or sercrurity force, they are observers. Altering the co editions of their service to suit your whims is not a viable option.

Southerners will serve if the pay and benefits make the sacrifices worth while, in exactly the same way northerners will. Maybe instead of trying to create a new Ranger service, we could just make serving in general less shit.

 

[Good2Golf]

Several weeks ago Trump complained about Canada trying to hitch a ride with the U.S. plans to build the icebreakers. Don’t be surprised if he terminates any shipbuilding agreements.

Good. We can partner up with Norway, and participate more in the JEF and Arctic.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Good. We can partner up with Norway, and participate more in the JEF and Arctic.

If we really wanted to get some attention we'd host Chinese troops on arctic exercises.

Based on my viewing of the Kung Fu Panda and Mulan movies, they're already 'oriented' towards mountainous/artic conditions

 

[Kirkhill]

Prove that they want to serve in that capacity rather than complain about those of us pointing out that they didn't sign up for that.

The Rangers are not a combat or sercrurity force, they are observers. Altering the co editions of their service to suit your whims is not a viable option.

Southerners will serve if the pay and benefits make the sacrifices worth while, in exactly the same way northerners will. Maybe instead of trying to create a new Ranger service, we could just make serving in general less shit.

I am NOT compelling anyone. I certainly wouldn't compel the Rangers to do anything by altering their terms of service. Unlike members of the Army Reserve who can have their terms of service changed "on a whim".

I am suggesting that there is a need for a security force operating in the Arctic. I am suggesting that there are people living in the Arctic who have demonstrated a willingness to serve Canada loyally. I am suggesting that that pool of people be given the opportunity to apply for full time employment as security personnel in the Arctic adjacent to their homes. I am suggesting that that new body, engaged in securing Vital Points with small arms, but created as a full time division of the Canadian Rangers. That need not impact the service of the rest of the patrolling Rangers.

....

The issue of shit conditions for southerners and wanting better terms of service, better pay, pensions, accommodations, promotions, opportunities is all entirely separate from the issue of supplying security in the north.

The northerners do not consider it a hardship to live in the north. No more than people living in the vicinity of Cold Lake consider it a hardship to live there.

...

I point out that increasing personnel costs does nothing to improve the combat effectiveness of the Canadian Armed Forces. It does nothing to improve the weapons, munitions, consumables, training or skills of the members serving.

 

[Kirkhill]

Many of who? The Rangers? Or the Inuit and Dene? And are you getting them into southern recruiting centers? We can't recruit southerners. Why not try and recruit northerners where they are?

CRPG 1 - 2000 Rangers and 1400 Junior Rangers (Cadets) from a population of 133,000.
Ranger participation rate of 2/133 = 1.5%
Junior Ranger participation rate of 1400/133,000 = 1%

If grafted on to the south

1.5% of 41,000,000 = 615,000
1% of 41,000,000 = 410,000

Do we have anything like that level of interest or participation in the south?

1% participation rate for the Junior Rangers

Got me to wondering what the actual Cadet participation rate in Canada is.

• Who are we? Over 57 000 youth, aged 12-18, supervised and led by over 9000 military and civilian members; supported by their communities, sponsors, the Canadian Armed Forces, and the Navy, Army Cadet and Air Cadet Leagues of Canada.
• Where can you find us? In over 1200 Cadet Corps and Squadrons in over 800 communities from coast-to-coast-to-coast. Cadets also gain experience at 22 Cadet Training Centres, 32 sailing sites, 34 expedition sites and 59 flying sites and across the country.

What Cadets do - Canada.ca

Skills that Cadets from all 3 elements can gain during the program.

www.canada.ca

57,000/41,000,000 = 0.14%

1/7th the northern participation rate.

But perhaps they are picking up all the Scouts and Guides as well.

In 2022-23, there were 41,733 youth members and 12,960 volunteers in Scouts Canada. The association has declined significantly in size since its peak in 1965: youth membership is down 85% from 288,084, and volunteers are down 61% from 33,524

Scouts Canada - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In 2023, 59,468 girls participated in Guiding programs. 41% of these girls are part of the Ontario council which includes Guiding in Ontario and Nunavut.

Girl Guides of Canada

41,733 + 59,468 = 101,201
101,201 / 41,000,000 = 0.25%

Combined the participation rate is 0.39%.

Still not 1%. And that overlooks that the Junior Rangers is just the 12-18 crowd and the Scouts and Guides include 5-12 year olds as well as the Girl Guides number including Girl Guides living in Nunavut.

...

My opinion - there is a body of loyal Canadians available for recruitment with terms of service that better serves their needs. Kind of like southerners. But different.

 

[Cloud Cover]

If we really wanted to get some attention we'd host Chinese troops on arctic exercises.

Based on my viewing of the Kung Fu Panda and Mulan movies, they're already 'oriented' towards mountainous/artic conditions

More likely they’d be hosting us….

 

[Fabius]

I am NOT compelling anyone. I certainly wouldn't compel the Rangers to do anything by altering their terms of service. Unlike members of the Army Reserve who can have their terms of service changed "on a whim".

I am suggesting that there is a need for a security force operating in the Arctic. I am suggesting that there are people living in the Arctic who have demonstrated a willingness to serve Canada loyally. I am suggesting that that pool of people be given the opportunity to apply for full time employment as security personnel in the Arctic adjacent to their homes. I am suggesting that that new body, engaged in securing Vital Points with small arms, but created as a full time division of the Canadian Rangers. That need not impact the service of the rest of the patrolling Rangers.

....

The issue of shit conditions for southerners and wanting better terms of service, better pay, pensions, accommodations, promotions, opportunities is all entirely separate from the issue of supplying security in the north.

The northerners do not consider it a hardship to live in the north. No more than people living in the vicinity of Cold Lake consider it a hardship to live there.

...

I point out that increasing personnel costs does nothing to improve the combat effectiveness of the Canadian Armed Forces. It does nothing to improve the weapons, munitions, consumables, training or skills of the members serving.

The Canadian Rangers literally can not be employed as a security force for F35s, P8s, MQ-9B unless their terms of service are altered.

I mean I guess we could but the Pentagon would almost certainly not view that security force as sufficient due to the terms of service the Canadian Rangers serve under. The Pentagon would not authorize their technology to leave US soil if the Canadian Rangers , as they currently exist under the NDA were to be the security force.

 

[JLB50]

The Canadian Rangers literally can not be employed as a security force for F35s, P8s, MQ-9B unless their terms of service are altered.

I mean I guess we could but the Pentagon would almost certainly not view that security force as sufficient due to the terms of service the Canadian Rangers serve under. The Pentagon would not authorize their technology to leave US soil if the Canadian Rangers , as they currently exist under the NDA were to be the security force.

Just wait till India gets F-35s. Putin is probably jumping up and down with glee.

 

[Furniture]

The issue of shit conditions for southerners and wanting better terms of service, better pay, pensions, accommodations, promotions, opportunities is all entirely separate from the issue of supplying security in the north.

The northerners do not consider it a hardship to live in the north. No more than people living in the vicinity of Cold Lake consider it a hardship to live there.

Their migration south and to large centres like Iqaluit seems to run counter to your impression that they are happy to live in the north. Also, have you not heard of the urbanization trend occurring around the developed and developing world? People are leaving places like Cold Lake, because they don't consider it as high a standard of living as living nearer a larger centre with more opportunities...

I also suspect they would balk at the idea of getting paid less to do work, just because they are already there. Make the housing conditions comfortable, and make the pay incentive enough for a southerner to work there, then see who signs up. If it's the locals, great. If it's people from Yarmouth, Estevan, and Port Hardy, great as well.

I point out that increasing personnel costs does nothing to improve the combat effectiveness of the Canadian Armed Forces. It does nothing to improve the weapons, munitions, consumables, training or skills of the members serving.

I will point out that pay and benefits do have a direct impact on the combat effectiveness of the CAF. We are short thousands of people, and we are struggling to attract and retain people. The time proven solution to that issue is pay and benefits...

I have pointed out numerous times that the only reason personnel cost 50% of the CAF's budget, is because personnel costs are the one thing the GoC can't cut without the public noticing. If we funded the CAF properly, we could afford to pay people wages and benefits that would attract and retain people, while also having effective kit.

If we found a way to cut personnel costs, the GoC would just cut the capabilities until personnel costs were still 50% or more of the budget. The GoC cut personnel costs with FRP in the 90s when we lost 29K RegF pers(89K-60K)... That was supposed to make the CAF more cost effective, while still being combat effective. Comparing early 90s to now, when do you think the CAF was more combat effective relative to the likely opposing forces? Do you think cutting more personnel costs to fund kit will result in a more or less effective CAF in another 30 years based on history?

 

[Kirkhill]

The Canadian Rangers literally can not be employed as a security force for F35s, P8s, MQ-9B unless their terms of service are altered.

I mean I guess we could but the Pentagon would almost certainly not view that security force as sufficient due to the terms of service the Canadian Rangers serve under. The Pentagon would not authorize their technology to leave US soil if the Canadian Rangers , as they currently exist under the NDA were to be the security force.

Approach the serving Canadian Rangers and ask them if there are any volunteers for a full time security service.

Exactly the way the Canadian Militia was approached and asked if there were any volunteers for European or Korean service.

 

[Fabius]

Approach the serving Canadian Rangers and ask them if there are any volunteers for a full time security service.

Exactly the way the Canadian Militia was approached and asked if there were any volunteers for European or Korean service.

Volunteer for what under the NDA?
The Regular Force?
The Special Force?

They would not be Canadian Rangers then, they would have different TOS and would need to be trained in accordance with the requirements for their new role which would likely require an actual trade etc. ie not Canadian Rangers anymore.

Canadian Rangers enter the CAF as fully trained personnel with only a 10 day Ranger course offered to enhance their ability to integrate with other CAF units and are they are minimally equipped. Interestingly in 2008 all tactical wartime tasks were removed from the national task list for the Canadian Rangers. Those wartime tasks included vital point security and local defence.
Some additional items that would make this difficult is the fact that Canadian Rangers don’t have to meet an enrolment medical standard, don’t have a CRA,

I think it’s very easy to underestimate how very hard it would be to give the Canadian Rangers tactical tasks. There are reasons they were removed.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

If you are willing to write a coherent and realistic job description for a northern based security force designed to protect CAF assets at Northern locations and pay a decent wage and offer stability, then you will get Northern applying and some southerners as well. It's not rocket science.

 

[WestIsle]

Volunteer for what under the NDA?
The Regular Force?
The Special Force?

They would not be Canadian Rangers then, they would have different TOS and would need to be trained in accordance with the requirements for their new role which would likely require an actual trade etc. ie not Canadian Rangers anymore.

Canadian Rangers enter the CAF as fully trained personnel with only a 10 day Ranger course offered to enhance their ability to integrate with other CAF units and are they are minimally equipped. Interestingly in 2008 all tactical wartime tasks were removed from the national task list for the Canadian Rangers. Those wartime tasks included vital point security and local defence.
Some additional items that would make this difficult is the fact that Canadian Rangers don’t have to meet an enrolment medical standard, don’t have a CRA,

I think it’s very easy to underestimate how very hard it would be to give the Canadian Rangers tactical tasks. There are reasons they were removed.

That 10 day course is not really a thing from what I have heard. They tried pushing it out with the new rifles but it didnt take. Accountability and material issues are the current issues Im told.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Some additional items that would make this difficult is the fact that Canadian Rangers don’t have to meet an enrolment medical standard, don’t have a CRA,

So they're like Bands, as if Grizzly Adams was a bandsman?

 

[Eaglelord17]

Good point...

Why would we want to invest money into making sure the people who live up there have clean water, power, and other basic infrastructure that would be standard for most of the rest of Canada.

I mean, we've got by this far without having to divert cash from more important things like this, so no need to start now

We do invest money into clean drinking water, we just decide not to embarrass the first nations by pointing out how they fail to properly maintain the systems we install up there.

They struggle to get plant operators, and the few they do train generally don’t stick around doing it long, let alone the quality of job they do when working.

The ‘clean drinking water’ thing is a red herring argument. The issues around it are much more systemic than simply building a treatment plant.

 

[RangerRay]

Volunteer for what under the NDA?
The Regular Force?
The Special Force?

They would not be Canadian Rangers then, they would have different TOS and would need to be trained in accordance with the requirements for their new role which would likely require an actual trade etc. ie not Canadian Rangers anymore.

Canadian Rangers enter the CAF as fully trained personnel with only a 10 day Ranger course offered to enhance their ability to integrate with other CAF units and are they are minimally equipped. Interestingly in 2008 all tactical wartime tasks were removed from the national task list for the Canadian Rangers. Those wartime tasks included vital point security and local defence.
Some additional items that would make this difficult is the fact that Canadian Rangers don’t have to meet an enrolment medical standard, don’t have a CRA,

I think it’s very easy to underestimate how very hard it would be to give the Canadian Rangers tactical tasks. There are reasons they were removed.

I’m guessing their security clearance isn’t as stringent as the average Reg Force member either.