Our North - SSE Policy Update Megathread

[Furniture]

I'm not sure its the CAF that's adverse to doing that.

Fair point, it is likely a combination of GoC and CAF.

 

[lenaitch]

Suppose the Rangers remit were expanded to include Vital Point security as well. Still not necessarily an active combat team, although why not a local Arctic Response Company Group, but locals patrolling perimeters, standing gate guard, checking on remote radar sites?

Would the locals be interested in steady jobs and paychecks in their back yards? With the prospect of additional careers in the CAF also being possible?

If it is a staffed site, perhaps. Otherwise, patrolling perimeters and guarding the gates from and for what? It sounds very similar to what the Commissionaires do down south and most down south bases have open access anyway. Each individual northern Ranger would have their own story, but I suspect many spend a lot of their time, at least seasonally, supporting their family and living off the land. Having to drive around a fence for little practical reason might not seem all that attractive.

Checking on remote sites might be possible if they are a feasible snowmobile distance from where they live; otherwise, they would need different transport support. And again, checking on them from what? They are functionally monitored remotely and Nasittuk looks after service and maintenance.

 

[Rifleman62]

Read the comments.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1890172287468380253

1. Why is nobody joining the Canadian Armed Forces? What job would you take:1: Federal Govt CR04 office clerk, starting salary $53,378 per year, M-F max 40 hrs per week, close to home, no travel or postings regular pay increases unreal Union benefits, can't be fired unless God says so. Next to zero performance requirements or testing.

2: Canadian Armed Forces Recruit, starting salary $43,368, nowhere near home, must live in barracks, must be available 24/7 365, no overtime pay ever, ZERO protection from abuse or dangerous work environment, virtually no Rights or representation. Must serve anywhere in Canada, lucky to get any annual pay raises, 4 yr wait for first promotion & pay increase. Subjected to constant training, testing & performance reviews.

There is no CAF recruiting crisis, what there is, is a total lack of desire to upgrade the looked down upon military service in Canada to bring it up to modern day expectations of a professional military force valued by its country. Canada doesn't treat prisoners & illegal migrants as poorly as it treats its volunteer military members & families, its not complicated & they could fix it tomorrow if they cared.#cdnpoli

 

[Kirkhill]

If it is a staffed site, perhaps. Otherwise, patrolling perimeters and guarding the gates from and for what? It sounds very similar to what the Commissionaires do down south and most down south bases have open access anyway. Each individual northern Ranger would have their own story, but I suspect many spend a lot of their time, at least seasonally, supporting their family and living off the land. Having to drive around a fence for little practical reason might not seem all that attractive.

Checking on remote sites might be possible if they are a feasible snowmobile distance from where they live; otherwise, they would need different transport support. And again, checking on them from what? They are functionally monitored remotely and Nasittuk looks after service and maintenance.

My understanding was we wanted places to park F35s and P8s and other American technology (helping to offset Trump's tariffs). Apparently the Americans want to know that the places their kit gets parked is going to be secure. I might have thought that meant securing the facilities even when they facilities are vacant.

And do they not have vandalism in the North?

And forgive me if I am inclined to think that people interested in countering our technology might not find it too much effort to fly in to Iqaluit and charter a Twin Otter and a snow machine, or a boat, to have a look around.

....

Or, if indeed there is no threat, then forget Donald Trump and just shut down DND.

 

[KevinB]

My understanding was we wanted places to park F35s and P8s and other American technology (helping to offset Trump's tariffs). Apparently the Americans want to know that the places their kit gets parked is going to be secure. I might have thought that meant securing the facilities even when they facilities are vacant.

Many of those people will not be able to get clearances required for that role.

If you intend to put F-35’s etc someplace you need a real security plan.

And do they not have vandalism in the North?

And forgive me if I am inclined to think that people interested in countering our technology might not find it too much effort to fly in to Iqaluit and charter a Twin Otter and a snow machine, or a boat, to have a look around.

....

Or, if indeed there is no threat, then forget Donald Trump and just shut down DND.

Again, use the Rangers for what they are for,
But don’t try to make them into something else.

 

[Kirkhill]

Meanwhile, thank you Donald Trump

Trump’s annexation threats draw calls for Canada to deepen ties with other Arctic countries

Environmental concerns, high costs and worries about ceding northern sovereignty have driven protective Canadian policies toward the North

www.theglobeandmail.com

Poilievre pledges Arctic military base, naval icebreakers if party forms government

Conservative Leader cites need to counter growing threats from Russia and China, as well as desire to maintain good relations with United States

www.theglobeandmail.com

Future of Canada’s Arctic patrol lies in diesel-electric submarines

Canadian defence planners say the submarines offer advantages in silent underwater operation while providing sufficient capability to patrol chokepoints around key northern waterways

www.theglobeandmail.com

Opinion: Canada needs to build an Arctic Seaway

With the rules-based international order on the brink, we must now secure our Northern sovereignty and prosper in the process

www.theglobeandmail.com

Opinion: Canada is getting serious about protecting its Arctic borders, but will it be enough?

For years, reports made internally by the federal government and released publicly by Canadian experts have documented the rising double threat of Russia and China in the Canadian Arctic

www.theglobeandmail.com

Premiers push Ottawa to build Northern infrastructure after Arctic foreign policy

Updated defence policy promised $218-million over 20 years to build and operate northern ‘support hubs’, which will come with infrastructure upgrades for communities

www.theglobeandmail.com

Ottawa unveils new policy for what it now calls the ‘North American Arctic’

The policy introduces a new framing of the region as Ottawa and allies bordering the Arctic grapple with China gaining a major foothold there through its alliance with Russia

www.theglobeandmail.com

And

China criticizes Canada’s new Arctic policy which calls Beijing a potential threat

The policy identifies several ‘potential threats’ in the Arctic including China’s deployment of research vessels and surveillance platforms with both civilian and military applications

www.theglobeandmail.com

NORAD paying ‘full attention’ to Chinese and Russian air co-operation in Arctic

U.S. General Gregory Guillot says it potentially takes decades for two countries’ militaries to reach ‘full integration’ at a level like the U.S. and Canada

www.theglobeandmail.com

U.S. envoy sees some ‘concerning signals’ in Russia-China military co-operation in Arctic

Russia and China have deepened overall ties in recent years that include Beijing supplying Moscow with dual-use goods despite Western sanctions on Russia over the war in Ukraine

www.theglobeandmail.com

And many, many more.

 

[Kirkhill]

Many of those people will not be able to get clearances required for that role.

If you intend to put F-35’s etc someplace you need a real security plan.


Again, use the Rangers for what they are for,
But don’t try to make them into something else.

Why on earth would they be any different than other Canadians when it comes to getting security clearances? They are Canadians first and the "Ranger" label shouldn't preclude assigning the force different tasks, assuming adequate training.

Rumour has it that some US Marines fly air-e-o-planes while others stand around looking pretty at the White House.

---

 

[Furniture]

Why on earth would they be any different than other Canadians when it comes to getting security clearances? They are Canadians first and the "Ranger" label shouldn't preclude assigning the force different tasks, assuming adequate training

Except that many of them may not want to do that sort of work.

Why would we reinvent the wheel with the Rangers, when we can just hire people to do the job we want them to do?

Also, the Rangers are stood up as a distinct service specifically because they are not intended to be like the rest of the CAF.

 

[Kirkhill]

Except that many of them may not want to do that sort of work.

Why would we reinvent the wheel with the Rangers, when we can just hire people to do the job we want them to do?

Also, the Rangers are stood up as a distinct service specifically because they are not intended to be like the rest of the CAF.

Many of who? The Rangers? Or the Inuit and Dene? And are you getting them into southern recruiting centers? We can't recruit southerners. Why not try and recruit northerners where they are?

CRPG 1 - 2000 Rangers and 1400 Junior Rangers (Cadets) from a population of 133,000.
Ranger participation rate of 2/133 = 1.5%
Junior Ranger participation rate of 1400/133,000 = 1%

If grafted on to the south

1.5% of 41,000,000 = 615,000
1% of 41,000,000 = 410,000

Do we have anything like that level of interest or participation in the south?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Federally paid armed security jobs in the North, would be looked upon favourably by the residents up there. I don't foresee a lot of them having security issues.

 

[lenaitch]

I view the Rangers as kinda-sorta like a local volunteer fire department, police auxiliary or local SAR group that are directly in the service of the CAF. They are community members who are motivated to serve in a certain capacity and bring much needed local knowledge of a generally unfamiliar and somewhat hostile environment. Maybe some would be interested in being a (small 's') security force, but I view that as a separate role. Probably for the same reason that Commissionaires aren't involved base security forces.

I don't know for certain but it would be instructive if someone asked them if they signed up for a role where somebody shoots at them.

If we need a security details to guard the technology inherent in CF-35s, P-8s or whatever, I doubt a bunch of folks in hoodies with bolt action rifles is going to satisfy anyone.

One question to be asked is if there has ever been a threat, let alone a foreign one, at any un-staffed NWS site. I'm sure there are un-staffed US military installations, such as radar and radio sites, all over the US including Alaska that they aren't losing sleep over. Some of the NWS aren't near a community of any kind. What then?

 

[Czech_pivo]

Meanwhile, thank you Donald Trump

Trump’s annexation threats draw calls for Canada to deepen ties with other Arctic countries

Environmental concerns, high costs and worries about ceding northern sovereignty have driven protective Canadian policies toward the North

www.theglobeandmail.com

Poilievre pledges Arctic military base, naval icebreakers if party forms government

Conservative Leader cites need to counter growing threats from Russia and China, as well as desire to maintain good relations with United States

www.theglobeandmail.com

Future of Canada’s Arctic patrol lies in diesel-electric submarines

Canadian defence planners say the submarines offer advantages in silent underwater operation while providing sufficient capability to patrol chokepoints around key northern waterways

www.theglobeandmail.com

Opinion: Canada needs to build an Arctic Seaway

With the rules-based international order on the brink, we must now secure our Northern sovereignty and prosper in the process

www.theglobeandmail.com

Opinion: Canada is getting serious about protecting its Arctic borders, but will it be enough?

For years, reports made internally by the federal government and released publicly by Canadian experts have documented the rising double threat of Russia and China in the Canadian Arctic

www.theglobeandmail.com

Premiers push Ottawa to build Northern infrastructure after Arctic foreign policy

Updated defence policy promised $218-million over 20 years to build and operate northern ‘support hubs’, which will come with infrastructure upgrades for communities

www.theglobeandmail.com

Ottawa unveils new policy for what it now calls the ‘North American Arctic’

The policy introduces a new framing of the region as Ottawa and allies bordering the Arctic grapple with China gaining a major foothold there through its alliance with Russia

www.theglobeandmail.com

And

China criticizes Canada’s new Arctic policy which calls Beijing a potential threat

The policy identifies several ‘potential threats’ in the Arctic including China’s deployment of research vessels and surveillance platforms with both civilian and military applications

www.theglobeandmail.com

NORAD paying ‘full attention’ to Chinese and Russian air co-operation in Arctic

U.S. General Gregory Guillot says it potentially takes decades for two countries’ militaries to reach ‘full integration’ at a level like the U.S. and Canada

www.theglobeandmail.com

U.S. envoy sees some ‘concerning signals’ in Russia-China military co-operation in Arctic

Russia and China have deepened overall ties in recent years that include Beijing supplying Moscow with dual-use goods despite Western sanctions on Russia over the war in Ukraine

www.theglobeandmail.com

And many, many more.

Until a shovel is in the ground and the funding for said shovel has been allocated - all the way out to 40yrs in the future to cover the storage/handling/maintenance for said shovel - I'm a skeptic. Prove me wrong, lol.

 

[MilEME09]

Given the rangers are more an observer group rather than a fighting group, I think we would have better bang for our buck if we expanded our UAV fleet for northern ops. We are already putting the new transport/tranker fleet in Trenton, and edmonton international airport. Get two long endurance UAV squadrons based out of Edmonton, and Bagotville, have atleast one from each on station regularly in the north.

 

[Kirkhill]

Given the rangers are more an observer group rather than a fighting group, I think we would have better bang for our buck if we expanded our UAV fleet for northern ops. We are already putting the new transport/tranker fleet in Trenton, and edmonton international airport. Get two long endurance UAV squadrons based out of Edmonton, and Bagotville, have atleast one from each on station regularly in the north.

Do we really want to be bothered with anything north of 60? It seems that the most common response to any problem up there is that it is all too much work.

 

[GR66]

Do we really want to be bothered with anything north of 60? It seems that the most common response to any problem up there is that it is all too much work.

The distances in the Arctic are vast, conditions are harsh and the population sparse in the extreme so the challenges are real. That may mean the short term solutions may be sub-optimal.

However, if we put a serious focus on the economic development of the Arctic population growth as well as the establishment of both civilian and dual-use infrastructure to support that population will make the challenges less and less over time.

Focus initially on the interim solutions but begin planning what needs to be put in place for the optimal solutions and make a whole of Government effort to move towards the required end states.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Meanwhile Trump wants 40 more icebreakers, yea good luck with that. He be lucky to get even the first one started under his term.

 

[GR66]

Meanwhile Trump wants 40 more icebreakers, yea good luck with that. He be lucky to get even the first one started under his term.

Don't worry...there's a plan in place to facilitate that kind of rapid icebreaking capability:

Canada signs new partnership agreement with United States and Finland to produce Arctic and polar icebreakers - Canada.ca

The Honourable Jean-Yves Duclos, Minister of Public Services and Procurement and Quebec Lieutenant, joined by Alejandro Mayorkas, United States (U.S.) Secretary of Homeland Security, and Wille Rydman, Finland’s Minister of Economic Affairs, signed a joint Memorandum of Understanding to establish...

www.canada.ca

...oh wait

 

[JLB50]

Don't worry...there's a plan in place to facilitate that kind of rapid icebreaking capability:

Canada signs new partnership agreement with United States and Finland to produce Arctic and polar icebreakers - Canada.ca

The Honourable Jean-Yves Duclos, Minister of Public Services and Procurement and Quebec Lieutenant, joined by Alejandro Mayorkas, United States (U.S.) Secretary of Homeland Security, and Wille Rydman, Finland’s Minister of Economic Affairs, signed a joint Memorandum of Understanding to establish...

www.canada.ca

...oh wait

Several weeks ago Trump complained about Canada trying to hitch a ride with the U.S. plans to build the icebreakers. Don’t be surprised if he terminates any shipbuilding agreements.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Do we really want to be bothered with anything north of 60? It seems that the most common response to any problem up there is that it is all too much work.

Good point...

Why would we want to invest money into making sure the people who live up there have clean water, power, and other basic infrastructure that would be standard for most of the rest of Canada.

I mean, we've got by this far without having to divert cash from more important things like this, so no need to start now

 

[Alberta Bound]

Often the viable solutions in the North aren’t difficult. The biggest impediment is normally someone in Ottawa, Winnipeg, etc who doesn’t understand the North and quite often the issue. Back in 2004-2006 the community I was in had a number of locals interested in CAF careers after we started a Cadet Corp. But their applications kept getting bounced because you had set timelines and little access to services. One issue was we didn’t have physical addresses in the community. Recruiting wouldn’t accept a box #. So the RCMP detachment made up a map and addresses for every building. Recruiting called and wanted us to check on the guy who had been asked several times for an address and always said no. Who suddenly one day said he had a street address. We said we assigned him one. Recruiting said “the RCMP can’t just assign addresses”. My boss said “Why not, because we already have”. A couple days later Recruiting called asking if we had addresses for three or four other applicants. We passed on those addresses and that issue no longer impeded further applications.