New MBT(Leo 2, M1A2, or Challenger 2), new light tank (Stingray), or new DFSV (M8 or MGS)?

[Canadian Mind]

And you would be basing your opinion on your many years of tank time, I suppose?

Do you actually know what it's like to go 70 km/h in a tracked vehicle that weighs 50+ tons?  How about trying to stop?  Or track targets?  Or keep a grip on the stab as you move around streets and near obstacles?  What part of the track would you redesign to speed up the tank and what do you mean by "much" faster?  I'm intrigued.  Of course, as Mr. Majoor has pointed out, there are not a lot of places where you can actually get up to 70km/h without endangering yourself and others.  But don't let that little detail cloud your plan.

One thing that you haven't mentioned with a view to improving our fleet, based on all your tank expertise, of course, is communications.  Our tanks have a wonderful feature in their comms system called "listening silence".  This function, when enabled, permits the crew to listen to transmissions over the radio but prevents anyone in the crew from transmitting.  It is an excellent function when operating in periods where emissions are reduced for security reasons. 

It also prevents inexperienced crew members from keying on the net and making foolish transmissions when unsupervised.  Perhaps you should enable your own "listening silence" on this means.

With regards to your last statement, maybe I should. As I said, I was only basing my opinion on the opinion of others, that, and the fact that it made sense to me.

As for the rest of my statement, I was half expecting contadiction, best way to learn a lesson is to make a mistake. Didn't expect to get pounced.

Regardless, I'll keep the trap shut in here.

 

[geo]

With regards to your last statement, maybe I should. As I said, I was only basing my opinion on the opinion of others, that, and the fact that it made sense to me.
As for the rest of my statement, I was half expecting contadiction, best way to learn a lesson is to make a mistake. Didn't expect to get pounced.
Regardless, I'll keep the trap shut in here.

CM,
Welcome to the forum.
So long as you make your posts intelligent, you will not get pounced / trounced.
Lot of people don't necessarily agree with my own opinions / views AND bent sense of humour

By all means, jump in and have your say - your informed views would be welcome

 

[GAP]

CM,
Welcome to the forum.
So long as you make your posts intelligent, you will not get pounced / trounced.
Lot of people don't necessarily agree with my own opinions / views AND bent sense of humour

By all means, jump in and have your say - your informed views would be welcome

To add to this: if it is rumor that makes sense to you...state that. If it simply opinion, state that. Everyone enjoys the discussion, but when someone is outside their lane and makes statements that come across as a poser, they can expect to get trounced.... Welcome  ;D

 

[Canadian Mind]

Thanks for the tips.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Ah yes hovertanks, no friction, no stopping, no directional control, equal opposite reaction firing the gun and overly fond of ditches as all things that hover slightly over the earth are very slope sensitive. Ask me how I know!

 

[Kirkhill]

Geo - sarcasm noted.  My comments should have been more properly directed at our fresh young mind.

CM - you will get pounced on when you screw up.  Points on this forum are gained by how well you take your trouncing.    Cheers.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Now if you had brought up a concern about being stuck with a main gun that no one else may be using shortly, then you would have started a possibly interesting discussion. Anyone know what the brits plans are regarding replacing the gun with a smoothbore? Wonder if they might be looking at a 140mm gun to replace, although either change will likely require a major modification to the ammo stowage and possibly the whole turret. Not sure if they are still using the Clansman radios, I hear they take up a lot of space for very little capability.

 

[Canadian Mind]

I was looking at the rifled barrel. I just thought that as it was an older video, they had an older gun mounted on the turret.

What's the benefit of a 140 over a 120, and how would ammunition conversion work? Could a person use a 120mm Heat round in a 140 barrel?

 

[geo]

120mm in a 140mm tube?

Come on CM.... think a little.
(pull out a ruler - the 120 and 140 are the diameters - what do you really think?)

 

[Colin Parkinson]

140mm seems to be the next big thing in tank main guns, although I couldn't tell what the exact benifits would be. The brits like their HESH rounds quite a bit and would like to retain them from what I have read. If I remember correctly the Challengers FCS system is better than the current M1's, not sure how it compares to the Leo2A6.


Seems this link answers my Clansman question

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/challenger2/

Well Geo, I am sure someone would offer to fit the ammo with larger driving bands, stranger things have been done by defence departments to "save" some money!!! Of course that would only work if they retained the two part ammo system, which might have to happen with the larger ammo.

 

[geo]

Colin,
while some people might try it.... it remains that you are dealing with an tube shaped object 120mm wide being fit into a tube 140mm wide.  No matter the inserts or driving bands, we're still dealing with fitting a square peg into a round hole. 

 

[Franko]

Ah yes hovertanks, no friction, no stopping, no directional control, equal opposite reaction firing the gun and overly fond of ditches as all things that hover slightly over the earth are very slope sensitive. Ask me how I know!

Is it like a fleet of Gavins?      ;D

Regards

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Only if it is a MERK-Gavin armed with 12 106mm autoloading RR's!!!  :threat:

Geo
HESH would be a problem, but it is after all the driving band that is in contact with the barrel. With the lower pressures used with the HESH round the raised bands could likely withstand the pressure. The sabot rounds might be altered or at least the darts reused with new petals as training ammo. I have no doubt the bean counters would look at the stocks of ammo and the cost of refitting the ammo. I not sure if anyone else is using the gun or any other gun (Chieftain and Jordain Challengers perhaps) that would buy the ammo if they switch.

Seems the 120mm smooth bore has already been trailed, I notice they don't talk about ammo storage.

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/chall2.htm

 

[geo]

check... you're the SME on guns

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Remember when we were being told and telling each other that the tanks were gone and we would have to figure out how to do a combat team attack without them?  Heck, I was even trying to argue for a place in Afghanistan for the MGS just to get the firepower.    Its funny how assumptions we take for granted can suddenly disappear and that "never" is a long time...

As for the future who knows.  I would argue in our case that protection and multi-purpose firepower should have the right of way, although mobility can't be ignored.  A whiz-bang anti-tank gun with limited capabilities against infantry and structures would, in my opinion, be a poor choice.  A modern Brumbar would probably be too far in the anti-structure department, although it would be kind of fun.  A large gun with a variety of ammunition choices on a turret would still seem to be the way to go.

 

[Lance Wiebe]

Only if it is a MERK-Gavin armed with 12 106mm autoloading RR's!!!  :threat:

Geo
HESH would be a problem, but it is after all the driving band that is in contact with the barrel. With the lower pressures used with the HESH round the raised bands could likely withstand the pressure. The sabot rounds might be altered or at least the darts reused with new petals as training ammo. I have no doubt the bean counters would look at the stocks of ammo and the cost of refitting the ammo. I not sure if anyone else is using the gun or any other gun (Chieftain and Jordain Challengers perhaps) that would buy the ammo if they switch.

If anybody upgrades their tank to a 140, much cheaper and easier solution to getting rid of the 120 ammunition is to designate it training ammunition.  Swap barrels to the 120 for ranges, swap back to 140 after the ranges are done.

That's exactly what we did when the Centurion was upgraded from the 20 pounder to the 105.  Go to ranges, swap barrels, inserts in the ammo storage bins, fire all the old stock away, and then carry on. 

Modifying ammunition would be prohibitively expensive, I think.

 

[TCBF]

That's exactly what we did when the Centurion was upgraded from the 20 pounder to the 105.  Go to ranges, swap barrels, inserts in the ammo storage bins, fire all the old stock away, and then carry on. 

- How about: Start upgrade to 105mm, Snowball for the Cuban missle crisis, get told BAOR does not yet have enough 105mm to constitute a Warstock, change back to 20 Pdr while under cam nets in the middle of a German farm village...

... Was it like that in '62 George?

;D

 

[a_majoor]

I suspect the 140mm cannon is one of those "good ideas" which will never see the light of day; armies have been playing around with this idea since the 1980's but in the end the size/weight/space issues probably outweigh any gains in firepower. At a minimum, I don't see any tank using a 140 unless there is an autoloader included or two piece ammunition.

As a historical comparison, the Germans figured that if an 88 was great in a Tiger, then a 128mm would be even better in a "Jagdtiger", but the end result was so big and heavy that it was practically immobile, carried fewer rounds and took longer to get into action. http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz12.htm

The presumptive 140mm armed "Block 3" tank would have weighed in at over 80,000 Kg, so the point of diminishing returns has almost certainly been reached with conventional cannons.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Absolutely agree, that the upper useful limit of main guns have been reached, reading elsewhere a debate about the 120 smoothbore vs rifled, the Brits had stopped making ammo for it and the factory was closed, the cost of restarting is very high. Apparently Jordan is using the smoothbore on their homemade turret, but Oman is using the rifled gun. Considering the threats aren't likely to change much for the next 10 years, they will suffice nicely if ammo is continued to be made and gradually improved.

Swapping a barrel from a single piece ammo to a 2 piece and back again seems like a real pain. More likely is one unit based only in the UK will keep the rifled guns until the stock is depleted, while the rest of them change over. It would be nice if they could make a stable HESH round for the smooth bore. The only possible advantage to the 140mm would be making tube launched missiles slightly easier to squeeze into the dimensions allowed.

Despite some of the material out there, I don't see EM guns on tanks for the next 15 years. I suspect we will see them on the next generation of warships and them self propelled guns.

 

[McG]

Wonder if they might be looking at a 140mm gun to replace,

I know of several nations that were looking at 140 mm years ago.  None appear to be moving forward with it, and I know it has stopped an progression in the US.  The gun is too big for what militaries are looking for.

I am sure someone would offer to fit the ammo with larger driving bands, stranger things have been done by defence departments to "save" some money!!!

to fire 120 mm ammo through a 140 mm tube, designing a sabot carrier would be a better idea.  Giant driving bands would hurt the ballistic performance of the projectile.

Not sure if they are still using the Clansman radios

The UK recently (couple of years back) switched to Bowman, which is an evolution of our TCCCS.

It would be nice if they could make a stable HESH round for the smooth bore.

Same way it is done for HEAT:  add a tail & fins.