New Canadian Shipbuilding Strategy

[Swampbuggy]

Docksta CB90 | Saab

With more than 250 boats operating worldwide, CB 90 has been a success story since the first boat was commissioned.

www.saab.com

CB90 has a usable load of 6.5 tonnes, a length of 16.3 m and a beam of 3.8 m.

The USMC packs two NSM/JSMs on the back of a JLTV with a usable load of 5100 lbs (2.5 tonnes), a length of 6.2 m and a width of 2.5 m.

I believe that a CSC could launch 2x CB90 from its mission bay, each with 2-4 JSMs and a half-dozen Loitering Attack Munitions and despatch them over a combat radius of 150 NM at a cruising speed of 38 knots.

Or they could transport a small body of sailors or soldiers.

I’m just wondering if those assault style boats are necessarily the best fit? Wouldn’t it make more sense just to build more ORCA’s for that role? We already know the ship and it serves well as a training platform too. If you strengthened the foredeck a little more to accept a proper RWS, I think it might fit the bill for what you’re suggesting.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I’m just wondering if those assault style boats are necessarily the best fit? Wouldn’t it make more sense just to build more ORCA’s for that role? We already know the ship and it serves well as a training platform too. If you strengthened the foredeck a little more to accept a proper RWS, I think it might fit the bill for what you’re suggesting.

Orca's are restricted to Inside waters due to stability issues. They are however great training vessels.

I would use CB-90's in the Arctic to create Naval Reserve stations up there that operate in the open water seasons. With the focus of getting them eventually fully manned by people residing up there. Likely a station in the western Arctic and Eastern Arctic. Hanger the boats in the winter.

 

[OldSolduer]

They remind of German E boats of WW 2

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

The Orcas are a little top heavy for real patrol duties.

However, in an operational role, you would'nt need as many bunks/cabins so let's say you want 15 crew, by moving the ship's office in the lower deck, cutting the equivalent of the galley from the superstructure and relocating it and two "mess/dining area" into the current classroom (One with table for four: Officers and PO/CPO's, another with tables for 8 : sailors), then cutting half the bridge off, you would get a reasonable patrol vessel. Heck! You could pawn something like that to various reserve units.

Just add a station for .50 cal on the bow and voila! The actual gun can be brought back to the unit when the vessel is just locked up at the marina or wharf when not in use.

 

[Swampbuggy]

Orca's are restricted to Inside waters due to stability issues. They are however great training vessels.

I would use CB-90's in the Arctic to create Naval Reserve stations up there that operate in the open water seasons. With the focus of getting them eventually fully manned by people residing up there. Likely a station in the western Arctic and Eastern Arctic. Hanger the boats in the winter.

What’s the fundamental issue with the stability in the class? I’m just wondering if it’s endemic to the platform or if it could be mitigated somehow other than restricting where it can go. I think your assault boat might be feasible for Arctic/riverine usage but I can’t imagine it being super great in the North Atlantic.

 

[Swampbuggy]

The Orcas are a little top heavy for real patrol duties.

However, in an operational role, you would'nt need as many bunks/cabins so let's say you want 15 crew, by moving the ship's office in the lower deck, cutting the equivalent of the galley from the superstructure and relocating it and two "mess/dining area" into the current classroom (One with table for four: Officers and PO/CPO's, another with tables for 8 : sailors), then cutting half the bridge off, you would get a reasonable patrol vessel. Heck! You could pawn something like that to various reserve units.

Just add a station for .50 cal on the bow and voila! The actual gun can be brought back to the unit when the vessel is just locked up at the marina or wharf when not in use.

Sorry OGBD, I didn’t see your post until after I responded. I see you are relocating the centre of gravity to lower in the vessel.

 

[Kirkhill]

I’m just wondering if those assault style boats are necessarily the best fit? Wouldn’t it make more sense just to build more ORCA’s for that role? We already know the ship and it serves well as a training platform too. If you strengthened the foredeck a little more to accept a proper RWS, I think it might fit the bill for what you’re suggesting

You could well be right. We don't need to go to Sweden to get good small boats. Got lots of good builders here.

 

[YZT580]

Orca's are restricted to Inside waters due to stability issues. They are however great training vessels.

I would use CB-90's in the Arctic to create Naval Reserve stations up there that operate in the open water seasons. With the focus of getting them eventually fully manned by people residing up there. Likely a station in the western Arctic and Eastern Arctic. Hanger the boats in the winter.

what happens to the hull integrity when it hits a growler? The videos have it moving at a significant speed and I can't imagine some 19 year old actually being cautious when he has all that power available

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Swampbuggy, the Orca's are a derivative of a line of vessels known as Pacific Patrol Boats that is pretty stable and fairly unrestricted as far as stability is concerned, but to turn them into training vessels, we added the requirements for a large space that can be used as "classroom" at sea - that includes more and larger tables than you would otherwise need just to eat, so that the six or seven cadets having passages the next day have a place to do their passage planning - and that made the superstructure bigger than it needs to be. As for the bridge, it was made much larger than need be so that - again - a second complete group of cadets could execute a passage and/or train in fixing the ships position while the pair being evaluated is doing its passage from the front. In normal use of such a patrol vessel, the bridge need not be so large. These two modification increased top weight and, as a result, affected stability as compared to the actual original Pacific patrol boat design.

 

[Furniture]

what happens to the hull integrity when it hits a growler? The videos have it moving at a significant speed and I can't imagine some 19 year old actually being cautious when he has all that power available

We let 16 year old people drive cars at high speeds on roads with other cars, pedestrians, and wildlife all the time.

If you treat your people like children, they will act like children. If you train and supervise them, they will act like professionals.

 

[Czech_pivo]

We let 16 year old people drive cars at high speeds on roads with other cars, pedestrians, and wildlife all the time.

If you treat your people like children, they will act like children. If you train and supervise them, they will act like professionals.

Yup, heck of a lot of 10-14yr old's on farms driving pick-ups, tractors, combines all across this nation......

 

[Kirkhill]

Ukrainian uses of the CB90

Ukrainian Defence Intelligence Received CB90 Armored Boats

Donors have equipped the Defence Intelligence of Ukraine with CB90 armored boats

mil.in.ua

Duties of the boats

The CB90 high-speed armored landing craft was developed by the Swedish company Dockstavarvet

It can also be used for reconnaissance, mining, surveillance, and intelligence data gathering. For the latter, a surveillance radar is installed on board.

The boat is capable of carrying up to 21 marines in full combat gear, or cargo up to 4.5 tons. The troops are placed in the central part of the boat under the wheelhouse and disembark via the bow ramp. Due to its shallow draft, the boat can land on an unprepared shore.

The CB90 is armed with three turrets located behind the wheelhouse and one on each side. They can be equipped with a Browning M2HB 12.7mm machine gun or a 40mm automatic grenade launcher. In addition, the boat can be armed with RBS 17 SSM (Hellfire) light anti-ship missiles for strike or sabotage missions, and can carry four 2.8-ton sea mines or six depth charges.

Doesn't necessarily demand the CB90 but does indicate what a similar General Duties boat might do, with or without some degree of autonomy.

...

The Danes allow their youngsters to run around the ice in smaller versions of the CB90 - unarmoured 12m jet boats

 

[Swampbuggy]

Here's a theory that we haven't considered. What if the Corvette program isn't for replacing the MCDV's. What if its replacing the frigates? Again Tier 2 combatant but reworked/reworded.

The CSC are not replacing frigate capability. They are going beyond frigate capability replacement into AAW, Command and Control, Cooperative Engagment, Flag Ship, BMD and so on, with new added capabilities.

The frigates combat systems are relatively new, SMART S, 3D AMB, CMS 330 tech refresh, New UWW suite, RWS, CIWS Baseline 2B, new FCS, Block III 57mm and so on.

We also are fairly confident that the frigate structural refits are challenging and exceedingly expensive, and perhaps won't be able to keep going until the CSC have replaced the fleet overall.

There is a path here where you build 3000 ton sized ships, reuse the combat equipment and the current upgrade programs (UWW, Comms) and get yourself a ship that can do the NATO missions with global deployability.

Basically the same combat suite as the frigates but add in an 8 cell VSL instead of the current missiles, a full comms refresh, and perhaps a new hull mounted sonar. It would certainly mean negigable combat system integration and equipment costs for installation on the new ship

If DWP's are cost over a billion per year it might be time to implement something, anything to cut into those costs.

Two questions, hangar or no hangar AND who would builds them?

Victoria shipyards had demonstrated through 3 different ship types that they can do the combat suite work. We just need the MSE side of things.

Personally, I’d like to see a multi use area where a hangar might be on a helo carrying vessel. It could house any number of mission specific equipment sets and perhaps a VTOL uav (S-100 or V-Bat for example) more or less permanently. I think a flight deck with a refuel capability would be an asset, though, with or without a hangar.

 

[suffolkowner]

Here's a theory that we haven't considered. What if the Corvette program isn't for replacing the MCDV's. What if its replacing the frigates? Again Tier 2 combatant but reworked/reworded.

The CSC are not replacing frigate capability. They are going beyond frigate capability replacement into AAW, Command and Control, Cooperative Engagment, Flag Ship, BMD and so on, with new added capabilities.

The frigates combat systems are relatively new, SMART S, 3D AMB, CMS 330 tech refresh, New UWW suite, RWS, CIWS Baseline 2B, new FCS, Block III 57mm and so on.

We also are fairly confident that the frigate structural refits are challenging and exceedingly expensive, and perhaps won't be able to keep going until the CSC have replaced the fleet overall.

There is a path here where you build 3000 ton sized ships, reuse the combat equipment and the current upgrade programs (UWW, Comms) and get yourself a ship that can do the NATO missions with global deployability.

Basically the same combat suite as the frigates but add in an 8 cell VSL instead of the current missiles, a full comms refresh, and perhaps a new hull mounted sonar. It would certainly mean negigable combat system integration and equipment costs for installation on the new ship

If DWP's are cost over a billion per year it might be time to implement something, anything to cut into those costs.

Two questions, hangar or no hangar AND who would builds them?

Victoria shipyards had demonstrated through 3 different ship types that they can do the combat suite work. We just need the MSE side of things.

https://www.navylookout.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/Lancaster-hull-inserts.jpg

is this what we are doing to the Halifax's?

 

[YZT580]

We let 16 year old people drive cars at high speeds on roads with other cars, pedestrians, and wildlife all the time.

If you treat your people like children, they will act like children. If you train and supervise them, they will act like professionals.

oh really? All those stories I was told growing up about pilots satisfying their curiosity re: why there were placarded restrictions on exceeding specific turn rates and speeds were just tall tales?

 

[Furniture]

oh really? All those stories I was told growing up about pilots satisfying their curiosity re: why there were placarded restrictions on exceeding specific turn rates and speeds were just tall tales?

A few individuals breaking the rules in not grounds for preventing people from doing things. Punish the people who break the rules, and treat the others like professional/adults. If we can't trust 19 year old boatswains to drive CB90s, then we shouldn't be putting them in control of machine guns, carbines and pistols either.

I'm not saying dumb things don't/won't happen. I'm saying that in the grand scheme of things, with supervision and training, they are rare.

Edit: Also, do you think you'd have ben told stories about people pushing the rules/limits if they were common? They are stories because they are outside the normal. Nobody comes home telling stories about how their co-workers drove 10km/h over the speed limit to work that morning...

 

[YZT580]

A few individuals breaking the rules in not grounds for preventing people from doing things. Punish the people who break the rules, and treat the others like professional/adults. If we can't trust 19 year old boatswains to drive CB90s, then we shouldn't be putting them in control of machine guns, carbines and pistols either.

I'm not saying dumb things don't/won't happen. I'm saying that in the grand scheme of things, with supervision and training, they are rare.

Edit: Also, do you think you'd have ben told stories about people pushing the rules/limits if they were common? They are stories because they are outside the normal. Nobody comes home telling stories about how their co-workers drove 10km/h over the speed limit to work that morning...

too true but it doesn't cancel the question: the discussion was about using the vessel in the arctic where ice is a known hazard to navigation. How would the hull stand up to an unexpected impact with ice at speed? Does the shape of the hull tend to deflect fod?

 

[FJAG]

Just to drive the CB 90 story a bit further, the Norwegians are looking for a replacement for the now 30-year-old boats. 13 are being donated by Norway and Sweden to Ukraine this year.

Incidentally, here's a video of the latest production improvement for the CB90HSM. Incidentally some of these now come with missile launchers.

Sweden has just ordered 10 more for a cost of roughly $37 million. That's a rounding error on most Canadian Navy projects.

I've searched to find the ranks of the cockswains without any luck and expect it varies from country to country. My guess is that a based on the crew size and responsibility you would want a PO2 in command.

too true but it doesn't cancel the question: the discussion was about using the vessel in the arctic where ice is a known hazard to navigation. How would the hull stand up to an unexpected impact with ice at speed? Does the shape of the hull tend to deflect fod?

It's basically a flat bottomed boat, I think, but built out of aluminum so I wouldn't push it too far. I doubt that anyone here can answer the question but it does operate in North Norway so their Navy would have experience with that and be able to advise. The point isn't that its an Arctic vessel - we have AOPS for that - it would, I think, operate well on the left and right coasts albeit sailors know there's ice floating around there at times.

The point though isn't THIS boat but the concept of this type of boat and this manner of coastal operations.

 

[Kirkhill]

Autonomous SAAB

 

[Kirkhill]

And a self-propelled autonomous sea mine from the Swedes.

Sweden's FMV Awards Saab Contract for Self Propelled Naval Mine Development - Naval News

The Swedish Defence Materiel Administration (FMV) signed a contract agreement with Saab Dynamics for the development of a new "self-propelled sea mine" prototype.

www.navalnews.com