New Brunswick Shale Gas Protests

[x_para76]

:goodpost:

I am in broad and general agreement with pbi.

As much as I am frustrated with the antics of the Warriors and as much as I hope they don't resort to e.g. IEDs, I acknowledge that First nations have many, varied and, above all legitimate grievances for which full and fair redress is overdue.

Our Supreme Court has said, over and over again, that Canada ~ all of us ordinary citizens and political leaders alike ~ has failed to uphold the "honour of the Crown" in our dealings with First nations. Now I know that many people are going to jump up and say, "I haven't done anything to anybody. Why am I to blame?" I'm happy to agree that you haven't done anything wrong, but you and I have:

    1. Benefited, indirectly, to be sure, in most cases, from the unfair, often illegal treatment afforded to First nations peoples in the past; and

    2. Failed to demand positive measures to ameliorate the situations of too many First Nations.

In 1867 we, all, those who were alive then and all of those who are only small children now, accepted, by the very act of staying in Canada, the obligation, the duty, to uphold the promises King George made to Canada's First Nations. Too often, more often than not, we failed and we still fail.

I don't know what the right answers are. On a personal, philosophical level I tend to favour assimilation ~ making everyone in Canada equal in every way. That would amount to "buying out" special status for many aboriginal Canadians and it would costs billions and billions, tens of billions of dollars. And it might be an unacceptable course of action. I am persuaded that however we settle First Nations' grievances it will costs us many tens of billions of dollars; none of us like new, higher taxes so we must, either, "grow the economy" or do without some other government programmes.

I agree with E.R Campbell in the sense that we need to put thing right with the natives and make the proper financial reparations to settle. However, once the numbers are agreed upon and the payments made the natives then should lose their special status and live on an equal footing with the rest of us.  I realize that we're talking about significant dollar amounts to make this happen but for the most part much of it will end up back in the economy and in the governments coffers.

 

[George Wallace]

I agree with E.R Campbell in the sense that we need to put thing right with the natives and make the proper financial reparations to settle. However, once the numbers are agreed upon and the payments made the natives then should lose their special status and live on an equal footing with the rest of us.  I realize that we're talking about significant dollar amounts to make this happen but for the most part much of it will end up back in the economy and in the governments coffers.

For the most part I will agree, but throwing money at them for any reason has shown itself to be a colossal waste for the majority of cases. 

Have we not already "RENTED TO OWN" with trillions or more having been paid out to Bands across the land?

Don't get me going on the other forms of Welfare we have allowed to cripple this nation.

 

[x_para76]

For the most part I will agree, but throwing money at them for any reason has shown itself to be a colossal waste for the majority of cases. 

Have we not already "RENTED TO OWN" with trillions or more having been paid out to Bands across the land?

Don't get me going on the other forms of Welfare we have allowed to cripple this nation.

I'm certainly not suggesting that the government just throw random sums of money at the natives. I'm suggesting that they settle the land claims and take away the entitlements and give them one final negotiated sum of money. The natives can then choose how to spend it and what to do with it but they will live like the rest of Canada and there will be no more debate on the subject. I believe that either the Australians or the New Zealanders did something similar with their aboriginal people's. There were some cases where the money awarded was pissed up against the wall on booze, and cars, and other BS but it was the end of the native land claims debate.

 

[George Wallace]

As already mentioned; there is NO Land Treaty for the First Nations in New Brunswick.  Only a Treaty of Peace and Friendship.  So, in essence, to pay them off for lands that they historically do not have a claim to is throwing random money at the natives.

 

[PuckChaser]

So, in essence, to pay them off for lands that they historically do not have a claim to is throwing random money at the natives.

But it seems like thats what they want most of the time....

 

[x_para76]

As already mentioned; there is NO Land Treaty for the First Nations in New Brunswick.  Only a Treaty of Peace and Friendship.  So, in essence, to pay them off for lands that they historically do not have a claim to is throwing random money at the natives.

I apologize for my lack specifics. I was referring to the government settling all First Nations land claims across Canada.  I know the situation is incredibly convoluted and that there would be many illegitimate claims to sift through but in the long run it's gotta be better than the current climate of entitlement and endless financial burden.

 

[pbi]

It's true that there is no "one size fits all solution": as posters have indicated, the specific treaties (or lack thereof) vary across the country. IIRC BC has some unique situations unlike the rest of Canada.

IMHO the fact that we have paid out billions to FNs over the years doesn't give us any special "rights" if those payments were in fact obligations undertaken when the existing treaties were signed.

What it DOES point out, again IMHO, is that those billions may not have been spent very well. Governments of the day may have been only too happy to treat the payments as "fire and forget" money, as a way of keeping FNs quiet while assuaging any residual guilt about how"we" (the big historical "we"...) treated them in the past.

Not very sound bases for social policy, if you ask me.

While I don't exactly agree that "assimilation" is the goal, because I don't see why FNs shouldn't preserve their cultures and heritage, I think that I understand what is meant. To me, the best goal that we can establish for FNs is to give them a level playing field and encourage their leadership to actually lead.

When I say "level playing field" I am very aware that for many bands this would actually mean a step up to a level field, if "level" means a similar range of opportunities and responsibilities as "other Canadians". It doesn't mean a scorched earth policy on payments to FNs: I don't see an approach like that doing anything useful.

Maybe we should look across Canada at those peaceful, stable (and in some cases economically viable) FN communities, and ask "how does that work?"

 

[GAP]

Maybe we should look across Canada at those peaceful, stable (and in some cases economically viable) FN communities, and ask "how does that work?"

Well, in the first place, it takes a chief and council who believe in working for the band, not just their own pocket money.

 

[pbi]

Well, in the first place, it takes a chief and council who believe in working for the band, not just their own pocket money.

Agree fully. IMHO FNs have been served the worst by some of their own "leaders". Attempts to correct corruption and incompetence, or to establish transparency usually seem to provoke cries of government oppression.

This reeks of the lack of trust on both sides: that IMHO is the first thing that has to be put right or nothing much else will happen. That will take both sides doing some swallowing and tongue-biting, but I don't see any way around. Each party has the capacity to make life hellish for the other: we need to get this away from confrontation.

 

[OldSolduer]

Well, in the first place, it takes a chief and council who believe in working for the band, not just their own pocket money.

Bazinga! The fact is that it appears the majority of chiefs and councils work only for themselves and family - it's nepotism knows no bounds.

Mind you us racist white men don't understand......right? >

 

[Colin Parkinson]

130% of BC is claimed, internal FN politics will make your head spin. Was at a meeting with proponent, EA office and FN chief . The proponent had been consulting with the Tribal council for 2 years. A splinter group walked in, said the consultations were not valid and to get off their "land" and the proponent must consult with them and set up a "capacity fund" so they can sit at the table.

 

[dapaterson]

A quick perusal of the news will show that Quebec politics, at the very least, make FN claims / financial mismanagement seem minor in their misconduct by comparison.

 

[OldSolduer]

Such a frustrating situation the way the government and law enforcement treats the natives with kid gloves. I live in Hamilton which is just outside Caledonia  and saw first hand how the natives BS has affected that community. Furthermore after having worked in the provincial correctional system for a number of years I've been disgusted with the way the system baby's them and their special interests.

Similar situation in my system. While not quite coddling them, they sure don't go out of their way to attempt to break up the gangs.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>to uphold the promises King George made to Canada's First Nations.

No.  One category of citizenship.  No special privileges or responsibilities.  Dead politicians can not bind subsequent generations into paying tribute.  Accident of birth does not grant one person an entitlement and another person an obligation.  This sh!t has to end, now.

 

[x_para76]

>to uphold the promises King George made to Canada's First Nations.

No.  One category of citizenship.  No special privileges or responsibilities.  Dead politicians can not bind subsequent generations into paying tribute.  Accident of birth does not grant one person an entitlement and another person an obligation.  This sh!t has to end, now.

Well said!   

 

[Lightguns]

Mayor Sock on a CBC interview last night and "hinted" that the weapons found were RCMP plants.  When asked about the weapons, "I do not want to talk about that, we are angry at RCMP dishonesty and they have destroyed their relationship with our nation".  Follow up questions about the RCMP planting weapons were met with affirmative grunts.  He is a good politician, not committing but leaving the message he wants well seeded.  Of course, he has the Manitoba leader of the Onion Lake Confederates right there to instruct him.

There is local talk here that the local natives will withdrawal support for the West-East pipeline (if there was ever any true support).  The 3 largest Acadian societies have now all come out in support of the natives so the whole issue is becoming English vs French AND Natives, just like everythign else in NB.

 

[GR66]

>to uphold the promises King George made to Canada's First Nations.

No.  One category of citizenship.  No special privileges or responsibilities.  Dead politicians can not bind subsequent generations into paying tribute.  Accident of birth does not grant one person an entitlement and another person an obligation.  This sh!t has to end, now.

Can't they?  Isn't our whole society built on the foundation of the laws, customs, social and political structures laid down by "dead politicians"?  Don't get me wrong, I think that long term integration would be best for both First Nations peoples and the rest of Canada.  However, I think it would be morally wrong to just throw out the current system and force immediate integration.  We have made commitments in the past to the First Nations...both legal and implied.  We definitely need to completely change the relationship to a form that makes sense for the 21st Century but in my opinion it would be wrong to do so unilaterally and without open and honest dialogue between both sides INCLUDING fair and reasonable consideration of what has been promised in the past.

There are definitely people that will be strongly, even violently opposed to any such changes, but just because the path isn't clear and the problem appears impossible to resolve doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to do the right things.

 

[OldSolduer]

Maybe the best thing to do is stop exploration altogether in NB. Pull up stakes and leave.

To any employees that lose employment, severance pay, and a statement to the effect that "your fellow citizens have spoken and they do not want New Brunswick to be prosperous, but remain a have not province".

 

[Edward Campbell]

>to uphold the promises King George made to Canada's First Nations.

No.  One category of citizenship.  No special privileges or responsibilities.  Dead politicians can not bind subsequent generations into paying tribute.  Accident of birth does not grant one person an entitlement and another person an obligation.  This sh!t has to end, now.

Like it or not, those promises, and a whole boat load of other customs, traditions, mechanisms, conventions and so on are part and parcel of our "sovereign patrimony" as a country and the Supremes have told us that we are biond by modern interpretations of those promises, not the exact letter of the law treaty.

 

[Lightguns]

Maybe the best thing to do is stop exploration altogether in NB. Pull up stakes and leave.

To any employees that lose employment, severance pay, and a statement to the effect that "your fellow citizens have spoken and they do not want New Brunswick to be prosperous, but remain a have not province".

Better yet if a have not province refuses to develop it's own resources, reduce it's transfer payments accordingly.  The whole "paid to sit around and complain" thing is getting old, regardless of race.  The fact is, and despite the weapons find, 44% of NB'ers think the natives are doing the right thing.  The whole moral compass is wacked down here.  Non-natives are running around saying the police should not have been armed and that clean water is justified in a few dead gas workers.  This place is becoming a real ____ hole.