• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Medical limitation

Olmstead

Guest
Inactive
Reaction score
0
Points
10
Anyone here know the definition of forced march at their own pace ( marche forcée a son propre rythme) when i spoke to the doctor and he gave me my 21 day chit he was under the impression it was any type of march, however my staff seems to disagree and is telling me its only ruck marches, can anyone enlighten me?

Thanks!
 
Olmstead said:
Anyone here know the definition of forced march at their own pace ( marche forcée a son propre rythme) when i spoke to the doctor and he gave me my 21 day chit he was under the impression it was any type of march, however my staff seems to disagree and is telling me its only ruck marches, can anyone enlighten me?

Thanks!

I had a chit like this a few of times and one of those times it went identical to the way you stating.  After going back to the MO and being told the same as you were, I pushed back and refused to do any type of march and basically told them politely that I am following the chit the way medical explained it to me and I'll deal with whatever consequences come from it.  They were a little pissed off but nothing came of it.

I'm not sure about this part, but I have also been told in the past by MO's that they can't put everything in a chit and that if the mbr thinks they can't do something based on their injury/illness then they should tell there CoC that and the CoC should be calling medical to clarify the specific issue as they arise.

I personally think some CoC's need to just back off when someone is injured or ill and let medical be the ones in charge.


 
I feel like they are mad and creating a stigma off my injury it's horrible leadership especially when they yell at you and when you try to explain that this is how medical told they dont let you respond first time in 10 yrs service i see this and ny first time having a chit. Now i need to go waste more time going back to the mir to get this clarified but even then no good leader should ever make someone feel like shit for having a medical limitation.
 
Olmstead said:
Anyone here know the definition of forced march at their own pace

You have to do the same march everyone else is doing but you don't have to stay in formation or keep up with the group.

You can do the march at whatever speed you want-but you still have to do it.
 
Jarnhamar said:
You have to do the same march everyone else is doing but you don't have to stay in formation or keep up with the group.

You can do the march at whatever speed you want-but you still have to do it.

I've had medical say differently when I enquired and seen other people get out of these marches entirely based on that wording of the chit.  What wording should medical use then if they don't want you to participate in the march at all?
 
stellarpanther said:
I've had medical say differently when I enquired and seen other people get out of these marches entirely based on that wording of the chit.  What wording should medical use then if they don't want you to participate in the march at all?

No marching?  No rucksack marches?  Pretty simple to distinguish "march at own pace" from "no marching allowed"

 
MJP said:
No marching?  No rucksack marches?  Pretty simple to distinguish "march at own pace" from "no marching allowed"
'
I believe a lot of the chits now are filled in from drop down items and one of them says "no forced march/rucksack and self directed PT at own pace.  I had that one about a year or so ago and the CoC said that means I can still do the PT with the group but at my own pace.  Medical says it means I can go do my own thing and stop whenever I want.  That one was a bit of a fight but was quickly resolved after the medical liaison officer called the unit.

The problem in my opinion is some CoC's try to interpret the chit to suit themselves instead of letting the mbr heal.  I've even seen CoC's say the chits are recommendations only and don't need to be followed despite what CANFORGEN 128/03 says.

 
[quote author=stellarpanther]

The problem in my opinion is some CoC's try to interpret the chit to suit themselves instead of letting the mbr heal. 
[/quote]

Interpreting MELs and employing members within their restrictions is exactly what the CoC is supposed to do.

If they have questions about MELs, which can be pretty ambiguous, they should contact the medical people and get clarification.
 
Jarnhamar said:
Interpreting MELs and employing members within their restrictions is exactly what the CoC is supposed to do.

If they have questions about MELs, which can be pretty ambiguous, they should contact the medical people and get clarification.

Yes but if a mbr says his knee is bothering him and he gets a chit that say no forced march/no ruck sack march and PT at own pace and the mbr says he can't do any PT, I really don't think the CoC should start deciding what type if any PT he/she should be doing.  Everyone in the CAF are adults and should be treated as such.  Leadership shouldn't be acting like they know better than the mbr.

 
stellarpanther said:
Yes but if a mbr says his knee is bothering him and he gets a chit that say no forced march/no ruck sack march and PT at own pace and the mbr says he can't do any PT, I really don't think the CoC should start deciding what type if any PT he/she should be doing.  Everyone in the CAF are adults and should be treated as such.  Leadership shouldn't be acting like they know better than the mbr.

You're right everyone in the CAF are adults. Some of those adults take advantage of various things including our medical system and MELs.

MELs protect the member but they're also a tool for the CoC.

In your example if the guy can't do pt then it's up to the medical system to give him a chit that says no pt.

PT at own pace is different from self-directed pt for a reason.

 
Sometimes I think when it's an expected short term type illness/injury, the MO's should write the mbr will do what he/she feels they can do so we don't have CoC's,mbr's and medical having different interpretations of chits. 
While no specific mbr was mentioned, I recall a General during a townhall say that despite the fact the some mbr's will abuse the medical system, everyone should be giving that mbr the benefit of the doubt an assume everything they are saying is true and if they are lying sooner or later they will be caught.  I think this is what all CoC's should be doing.  Treat people like adults and most will behave like adults.  We need to stop babying people and holding there hands.  Especially once they've been in for more than a couple years and should have learned by then.
 
stellarpanther said:
Sometimes I think when it's an expected short term type illness/injury, the MO's should write the mbr will do what he/she feels they can do so we don't have CoC's,mbr's and medical having different interpretations of chits.

I'm not sure giving soldiers a month where they can essentially decide not to work if they don't feel like it is a good idea.


I recall a General during a townhall say that despite the fact the some mbr's will abuse the medical system, everyone should be giving that mbr the benefit of the doubt an assume everything they are saying is true and if they are lying sooner or later they will be caught.

Thats a really weird thing for a general to say. It's probably been a while since he was responsible for enforcing platoon discipline, administration and filling all the no fail tasks that get pushed down.

Besides, the medical system already does believe members anyways.  They write up restrictions according to their professional training. Even when members have a long long history of getting sick or having a sore back coincidentally right before field exercises and brigade events, they still leave the cdu doors with medical employment restrictions.

Your idea to let members not work if they don't feel like just to avoid the coc having to interpret MELs as they're written it isn't viable.
 
I know what I'm saying will have different opinions and I respect all of them but, as I'm reading some of them over again this afternoon, I wonder if there is a different opinion from people in leadership positions in combat arms units vs leadership in Ottawa based units or other places such as Borden, Winnipeg or places where most PT is not unit lead?  With the exception of being on course or maybe playing volleyball or baseball with the unit on sports days from time to time, it's always been on my own at the gym or whatever I want really.


 
Jarnhamar said:
I'm not sure giving soldiers a month where they can essentially decide not to work if they don't feel like it is a good idea.



Thats a really weird thing for a general to say. It's probably been a while since he was responsible for enforcing platoon discipline, administration and filling all the no fail tasks that get pushed down.

Besides, the medical system already does believe members anyways.  They write up restrictions according to their professional training. Even when members have a long long history of getting sick or having a sore back coincidentally right before field exercises and brigade events, they still leave the cdu doors with medical employment restrictions.

Your idea to let members not work if they don't feel like just to avoid the coc having to interpret MELs as they're written it isn't viable.

I should have worded my post better because I'm not suggesting at all that they shouldn't work.  I'm talking about things like marches, PT etc.  I guess it could be different if  a person was in a combat arms unit vs someone who is a supply tech or a computer tech or even an HRA/FSA where they would most likely not be doing a lot of those things anyway.


 
Is forced march count only with ruck or is it just the term used for marching tho?
 
As someone that used to write chits, I was pretty specific about stuff - after the tick in the box, I'd often then amplify to be unambiguous; I didn't have all day to spend on the phone or email because someone had problems putting words together in either official language. 

I basically said no PT if that person was literally in a body cast or was on a specific rehab program (like post heart attack or something) and even most of those were "medically directed/supervised PT".  PT at own pace means just that - you go at the speed you can.  Whoever is leading the PT can have you do it with the group at your speed/ability or send you off to do modified activity - but that's their prerogative to give , not yours to assume.  If you've got specific restrictions based on the injury or illness, they need to be specified - if you can march but shouldn't carry a ruck, you'll be given no ruck marching as a restriction or maximum weight restriction attached (FFO vs marching order or something like carrying no weight >/= 10kg), what body bits can be exercised (self or medically supervised upper body PT only for instance).  If you're self-directed, then you go do your thing...but do actual PT, not arm curls with your 2 large double doubles.

You'll note that you'd literally have to be on death's door to get a full excused PT chit from me - I'd actually discuss that with the Base Surgeon if something remotely looking like that came up, as exercise is actually medicine and progressive exercise is necessary to recover from injuries, surgeries and some illnesses...and being able to exercise and be fit is a mandatory requirement for military employment.  Most people like that are on some Temp or PCat.

Don't get me going about the folks that were on "athletic scholarships" that were asking to be excused runs and ruck marches but be able to keep playing full contact hockey, rugby, unarmed combat or other full contact sports...hence what Jarnhamar notes about being treated like supervised adults vs like normal everyday ones. 

:2c:

MM
 
PT Limited in type, duration, intensity or frequency.

That is what is written on my MEL's and I do the PT I want at the same time as my unit.
 
Back
Top