Media Request: Almost 5M Rounds Downrange in AFG

[The Bread Guy]

Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.

Canadians fired almost five million bullets in Afghanistan in two years
Canwest News Service, 6 Feb 08
Article link

OTTAWA  -- Canadian troops fired more than 4.7 million bullets at insurgents over the last 20 months in Afghanistan, according to new statistics released by the military.

In an abrupt reversal tonight, the Defence Department issued the figures requested by the Ottawa Citizen two weeks ago.

The request was made after U.S and British governments provided similar figures to the public.

But a top general warns Taliban insurgents based in the mountains around Kandahar are reading articles in the Ottawa newspaper on a regular basis and that the military has to be careful about what details it releases.

According to an e-mail from the Defence Department, for the period between April 2006 and December 2007, troops fired more than 2.9 million rounds of 5.56-mm ammunition, the standard bullet used in Canadian rifles.

Troops fired more than 1.6 million rounds of 7.62-mm machine-gun bullets and more than 115,000 rounds of .50-calibre machine-gun ammunition during the same time frame.

Canadian tanks fired 1,650 shells and the army's artillery guns used up more than 12,000 rounds during fighting.

Until this week, the military was claiming that such figures were secret and could put Canadian soldiers at risk.

The Defence Department declined to explain that further, noting that even releasing such details about the reasons behind the secrecy could jeopardize operations in Afghanistan.

However, faced with questions Tuesday from Bloc Quebecois MP Claude Bachand about the validity of withholding such figures, Brig.-Gen. Peter Atkinson said the Canadian Forces had a change of heart.

"We had a sitdown this morning and we reviewed that and we are going to release the ammunition expended in Afghanistan on an annual basis," he said.

Atkinson, a special adviser to Gen. Rick Hillier, chief of the defence staff, did not explain the reversal.



- edited to clarify that request was NOT via ATIP -

 

[Jorkapp]

...more than 2.9 million rounds of 5.56-mm ammunition...
...more than 1.6 million rounds of 7.62-mm machine-gun bullets and more than 115,000 rounds of .50-calibre...
Canadian tanks fired 1,650 shells and the army's artillery guns used up more than 12,000 rounds during fighting.

Puts a nice perspective on how much hell we've put TB/AQ through. :threat:

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Anyone else notice that they failed to mention the amount of 25mm rounds fired?

 

[Bartron]

Anyone else notice that they failed to mention the amount of 25mm rounds fired?

Forgive my ignorance but that's what the LAV Cannon fires?

 

[aesop081]

Forgive my ignorance but that's what the LAV Cannon fires?

Humm.....25 mm

 

[geo]

yes bartron....
it's a 25mm chain GUN - not a cannon!

(edited cause i forgot my gun  :threat: :bullet: )

 

[Bartron]

yes bartron....
it's a 25mm chain - not a cannon!

lol, thanks for clearing that up for me.

 

[guns_and_roses]

Canadian tanks fired 1,650 shells


Thats something I thought I wouldnt see again.

 

[geo]

Huh.... If you are a future soldier... you ain't seen nothing yet !

 

[OkotoksRookie]

Wow....
Simply WOW!

 

[Fusaki]

It actually is a cannon and a chain gun.

But most guys just call it "The Twentyfive".

LAV Gunners represent, yo 

BRAAPPP!!  ;D

 

[Sig_Des]

But most guys just call it "The Twentyfive".

LAV Gunners represent, yo 

BRAAPPP!!  ;D

Don't forget "Gat"

 

[aesop081]

Thats something I thought I wouldnt see again.

When is the last time you have seen that ?

 

[helpup]

With out trying to get into Op Sec, I am wondering why the report wasn't broken down into at least an approximation of how many rounds were used on Ops verses Zeroing, confirmation Zeroing, registering ect.  To JQ Public the total numbers are allot but a fair chunk of those numbers would of been part of normal usage.  ( no I don't have exact numbers ) but if a Btl Gp had every man Zero for X rounds and did it at least once a month if not more.  Those figures would also include Crew/ Veh weapons. 

I thought when this first came out that there was too much involved in secrecy and can understand why certain levels of Gov or the Mil would not want it to come out as it could bring up questions people would rather not answer.  But if your going to give figures then try and at least mitigate it by at least mentioning that not every single round fired there was during a TIC.

Anyhow just my thoughts on it.

 

[Dean Thompson]

It's been estimated the American army/Marines in Iraq fire 250,000 rounds per enemy killed. I'd think our ratio is a bit better than that. The US is buying ammo from Israel since the American ammo manufacturers can't keep up with the demand.  :-[

 

[Brad Sallows]

Well this is good news, isn't it?  I recall reading (most likely apocryphal) estimates that a million or two bullets were fired for every soldier killed in previous big wars.  If true, however, it means the CF has dramatically improved the efficiency of its ammunition expenditure.

 

[Shamrock]

Man, this is going to make for one hell of a range clean-up.

 

[DavidAkin]

It's been estimated the American army/Marines in Iraq fire 250,000 rounds per enemy killed. I'd think our ratio is a bit better than that. The US is buying ammo from Israel since the American ammo manufacturers can't keep up with the demand.  :-[

That can't be right. If that ration is right or close to right and we've fired 4.7 million round, then CF forces have less than 20 kills in 20 months.

We (that'd be us reporters) ask DND/CF PA all the time for estimated number of Taliban killed/wounded/captured -- and we never get them. But if there was a reliable or historically accurate ratio of rounds fired per kill, this would be big news, it seems to me.

 

[George Wallace]

David

"Body Counts" are never accurate.  If they were, the Americans would have killed everyone in North and South Vietnam several times over.

The Taliban remove their dead and wounded from the battlefield.  It is their belief that the dead must be buried before sundown.  How do we accurately define what a blood trail may mean?  Does the blood trail indicate a dead body being removed from a battlefield or a wounded combatant?  In the case of a massive explosion on an enemy position by a ordnance like a JDAM, where bodies are in many cases vaporized, how do you determine how many there were? 

It isn't the same as a drive-by shooting in Toronto, where a hundred rounds are sprayed into a crowded street and several people are hit.  There are not many instances in the battlefield where the police and forensic scientists are called in to "survey" the crime scene.

I am sure, some foolish person may come up with a figure, but is a "guesstimation" what you really want?  I doubt anyone in DND would be foolish enough to make such a guess.

 

[DavidAkin]

David

"Body Counts" are never accurate.  If they were, the Americans would have killed everyone in North and South Vietnam several times over.
---snipped--

All good points, George, thanks.

Still, we think we're serving a public interest in even trying to figure out even best guesstimates for the following reasons -- and please shoot me down if none of these make sense:

1. We know precisely how many CF members have died (though, notably, DND refuses to release number of wounded).  Comparing that number to the number of enemy combatants have been killed helps some people get a better sense of the "are we winning" issue.

2. Early on, as most in this forum know, many Canadians believed Canadians in Afstan were engaged in 'peacekeeping'. Releasing enemy casualty figures is, it seems to me, as good a way as any as letting Canadians know the true combat nature of the mission.

3. Releasing enemy casualty rates humanizes the enemy -- for better or for worse -- and that can have an impact on the public policy debate.