- Reaction score
- 79
- Points
- 680
Lets not get back to the Vietnam body count formula,
Blood+drag marks+body parts = Whole company of Enemy killed
Blood+drag marks+body parts = Whole company of Enemy killed
Media Request: Almost 5M Rounds Downrange in AFG
- Thread starter The Bread Guy
- Start date
Haggis
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 2,776
- Points
- 1,140
David:
Although you raise good points on the Canadian public's right to know from the Canadian media, the media wing of the Taliban and AQ also have a vested interest in knowing how many of them we "claim" to have killed.
They then split that number (70/30, 80/20, you pick one) and claim the remainder are civilians...and your associates are all over that, reprinting it as Gospel.
Although you raise good points on the Canadian public's right to know from the Canadian media, the media wing of the Taliban and AQ also have a vested interest in knowing how many of them we "claim" to have killed.
They then split that number (70/30, 80/20, you pick one) and claim the remainder are civilians...and your associates are all over that, reprinting it as Gospel.
- Reaction score
- 25
- Points
- 430
I am sure that one can listen to the Reports that do come back and start a tally, of what they "reported as being killed", but authentication is difficult. I am sure that some are indeed keeping a tally or "Kill Sheets", for the sake of keeping one, realizing that it is far from accurate. Such is the nature of the beast. Another factor to consider is that the Taliban have actively recruited from other radical Islamic groups from outside of Afghanistan, so an "endless" number of recruits would even skew the numbers even more. To publicly state that "unofficially" this is our "guess" as to how many have been killed would not be practical.
- Reaction score
- 2
- Points
- 330
Talking about "kill numbers", "kill ratios", "kills per day/hour/round fired/bomb dropped" focuses attention on what really is a meaningless statistic.
Remember, we conduct operations there in pursuit of an effect we hope to achieve; what we call "effects-based operations". What effect do we wish to see? Not fighting-age males killed by NATO. Enemy dead are a byproduct of the operations we must conduct to meet our effect - a safe and secure Afghanistan, an Afghanistan bound by rule of law, where the residents have expectation for a reasonable life for themselves and their children, personal and institutional security, access to education, clean water, electricity and a functioning, freestanding economy. We are a long way from that, but how do we do this?
Security sector reform is one way, institutionalizing, stabilizing and professionalizing the police, ministry of the interior, army and other government-sponsored security organizations, making them credible and effective in securing their own land and people.
Another is by stimulating economic growth by offering secure areas for business, agriculture, commerce and trade to develop without fear of reprisal, fear of the destruction of the hard work that a family puts into the land, fear that crops will find no market and that development past the subsistence level will be repeatedly ground into the dust by those intent on conflict. Not only does this stimulation develop the ability to produce products and services, it develops markets for them
A third is by providing lines of communication - the means for people move about and travel, expeditiously and safely from place to place. If bandits on the high road will steal product in transit, if product will spoil before it reaches a market for it, there is little value in producing it. Roads and bridges are the first step and needed vitally to foster further development.
Fourth is education. If the generations growing up now know nothing but fear, insecurity, instability, the rule of might above all else and the notion that legitimacy comes from the barrel of a gun, these ideas, coupled with hopelessness, disenfranchisement and abject poverty, will overwhelm any attempts to build the generation that will see their country develop and flourish. Education, both academic and technical, based not on fundamental religions precepts but on science, literature, mathematics, art, respectful of religion and acceptable to the country's religious and tribal framework is also critical. Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish, you feed him for a lifetime.
Security is the foundation upon which all these other effects stand; without it nothing will be accomplished. Our job right now is to meet and achieve that critical, dangerous first task - providing the security to allow the effects noted above to develop. In order to accomplish the security effect, we must disrupt, pre-empt, dislocate and interdict those that seek to generate and sustain instability, often in the name of religion or patriotism. At times, accomplishing this means we must fight these people and kill them, particularly as so many view it as a cultural, religious and personal imperative to kill our soldiers. Such is the nature of war.
Fighting and killing is not that which we seek, but is that which we must do to to defeat those who would seek to destroy what we have so far accomplished. To achieve our necessary effect, we must fight. When we fight, we often must kill.
Enemy dead are a consequence, but not the end we seek in and of itself. Therefore, attempting to draw any relevant meaning, linked to our objectives, from statistics concerning the number of enemy we have killed denigrates our true purpose in Afghanistan and demonstrates little understanding of what we must, at all costs, accomplish during our time there.
Remember, we conduct operations there in pursuit of an effect we hope to achieve; what we call "effects-based operations". What effect do we wish to see? Not fighting-age males killed by NATO. Enemy dead are a byproduct of the operations we must conduct to meet our effect - a safe and secure Afghanistan, an Afghanistan bound by rule of law, where the residents have expectation for a reasonable life for themselves and their children, personal and institutional security, access to education, clean water, electricity and a functioning, freestanding economy. We are a long way from that, but how do we do this?
Security sector reform is one way, institutionalizing, stabilizing and professionalizing the police, ministry of the interior, army and other government-sponsored security organizations, making them credible and effective in securing their own land and people.
Another is by stimulating economic growth by offering secure areas for business, agriculture, commerce and trade to develop without fear of reprisal, fear of the destruction of the hard work that a family puts into the land, fear that crops will find no market and that development past the subsistence level will be repeatedly ground into the dust by those intent on conflict. Not only does this stimulation develop the ability to produce products and services, it develops markets for them
A third is by providing lines of communication - the means for people move about and travel, expeditiously and safely from place to place. If bandits on the high road will steal product in transit, if product will spoil before it reaches a market for it, there is little value in producing it. Roads and bridges are the first step and needed vitally to foster further development.
Fourth is education. If the generations growing up now know nothing but fear, insecurity, instability, the rule of might above all else and the notion that legitimacy comes from the barrel of a gun, these ideas, coupled with hopelessness, disenfranchisement and abject poverty, will overwhelm any attempts to build the generation that will see their country develop and flourish. Education, both academic and technical, based not on fundamental religions precepts but on science, literature, mathematics, art, respectful of religion and acceptable to the country's religious and tribal framework is also critical. Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish, you feed him for a lifetime.
Security is the foundation upon which all these other effects stand; without it nothing will be accomplished. Our job right now is to meet and achieve that critical, dangerous first task - providing the security to allow the effects noted above to develop. In order to accomplish the security effect, we must disrupt, pre-empt, dislocate and interdict those that seek to generate and sustain instability, often in the name of religion or patriotism. At times, accomplishing this means we must fight these people and kill them, particularly as so many view it as a cultural, religious and personal imperative to kill our soldiers. Such is the nature of war.
Fighting and killing is not that which we seek, but is that which we must do to to defeat those who would seek to destroy what we have so far accomplished. To achieve our necessary effect, we must fight. When we fight, we often must kill.
Enemy dead are a consequence, but not the end we seek in and of itself. Therefore, attempting to draw any relevant meaning, linked to our objectives, from statistics concerning the number of enemy we have killed denigrates our true purpose in Afghanistan and demonstrates little understanding of what we must, at all costs, accomplish during our time there.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 260
Consider supressing fire as well when looking at total ammunition expended figures. On many occassions several high rate of fire weapon systems are firing at an area to surpress (ie: keep enemy pinned down and unable to return fire or move) while other elements are moving into posns etc. Large quanities of ammunition is expended during such tasks to make such movement safer. So to take the accual expended ammunition figures and divide it by the "kills" figure produces a false number of rds per "kill" since a huge amount of ammunition is expended at times in these supression fires.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 60
CSA had very well thought out response that should be mandatory reading for all MP's prior to any vote. In fact, it should be mandatory reading for the general public too. Could we possibly have someone from the media pick this up for distribution? Well done.
