Maritime Coastal Defence Vessels (MCDVs)

[Underway]

The original idea of the SK CVX has gotten chopped back significantly to be more more like the LHD DokDo. Their change in government scuttled the CV plan, to back towards a more Mistral like approach.

Yah because a CVX in the Korean sense was an ego project and not something aligned with their actual defence needs. They don't need power projection outside of their backyard. Any trouble will come directly to them from China and NK.

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Canada should not  ever build its naval capability based on what the US needs. It should base its capabilities on what  Canada needs.

And in doing so will meet what our allies need in the process. Because what the US needs is to not have to worry about us being a liability or gap in their coverage.

 

[Underway]

Talking to some of the people who actually work for the Canadian Multirole Corvette Program its going to be light in the armament department.

Ugh. Whats the point then? If it's light in the armament dept then its an OPV not a corvette. And if it's lighy armed then it's just a fast mcdv which CRNC stated we don't need.

Now if its armament that is fixed is light but has modular weapons capability and good sensors then that's perhaps a corvette.

I was always advocating for a UK River class OPV style before this corvette naming situation reared its head.

 

[suffolkowner]

Ugh. Whats the point then? If it's light in the armament dept then its an OPV not a corvette. And if it's lighy armed then it's just a fast mcdv which CRNC stated we don't need.

Now if its armament that is fixed is light but has modular weapons capability and good sensors then that's perhaps a corvette.

I was always advocating for a UK River class OPV style before this corvette naming situation reared its head.

whats wrong with a slightly bigger and faster Kingston?

 

[Furniture]

Ugh. Whats the point then? If it's light in the armament dept then its an OPV not a corvette. And if it's lighy armed then it's just a fast mcdv which CRNC stated we don't need.

Now if its armament that is fixed is light but has modular weapons capability and good sensors then that's perhaps a corvette.

I was always advocating for a UK River class OPV style before this corvette naming situation reared its head.

I guess it depends on what "light" means to different people.

The German K130 corvettes have 4x anti-ship missiles, 2x RAM launchers, 2x 27mm RWS, and a 76mm gun. That's "light" compared to a frigate or destroyer, but it's still a lot of capability in a small platform.

 

[Underway]

whats wrong with a slightly bigger and faster Kingston?

It doesn't meet.the expectations set out by the CRNC. Basically if we need an mcdv we can find a bunch of civi ships that will do the job.

 

[Underway]

I guess it depends on what "light" means to different people.

The German K130 corvettes have 4x anti-ship missiles, 2x RAM launchers, 2x 27mm RWS, and a 76mm gun. That's "light" compared to a frigate or destroyer, but it's still a lot of capability in a small platform.

In a Canadian sense light means a 25mm to 40mm and 50 cal.positions.

Light through the rumour mill could mean anything.

 

[Rainbow1910]

The original idea of the SK CVX has gotten chopped back significantly to be more more like the LHD DokDo. Their change in government scuttled the CV plan, to back towards a more Mistral like approach.

Last I had heard, the program was wallowing in an unfunded stage. I haven't heard anything regarding a return to LHD type vessels but I also am not following it very closely.

Ugh. Whats the point then? If it's light in the armament dept then its an OPV not a corvette. And if it's lighy armed then it's just a fast mcdv which CRNC stated we don't need.

Now if its armament that is fixed is light but has modular weapons capability and good sensors then that's perhaps a corvette.

I was always advocating for a UK River class OPV style before this corvette naming situation reared its head.

This is the same Navy that has called the CSC a destroyer when the majority of the world would classify it as a frigate, calling an OPV a corvette would fit the theme lol. We seem to be making our own designations up with a flair towards history, corvettes would track with that.

I still think a proper OPV is a very valuable capability for Canada, we don't strictly need a corvette in my opinion.

It doesn't meet.the expectations set out by the CRNC. Basically if we need an mcdv we can find a bunch of civi ships that will do the job.

Are we going to be using civilian ships in peacetime to fill the roles of the MCDV's? We still need presence vessels able to be deployed at home and abroad for a variety of missions, that isn't easily doable if you want to lump those duties onto the AOPS and use civilian vessels during wartime/for whatever else. This is where a cheap and cheerful proper MCDV successor comes in, the cheap part goes away fast the more it is turned into a corvette. The CRCN is one man who will eventually be replaced himself, is his personal expectations going to shape the procurement of the Navy to this degree?

 

[suffolkowner]

It doesn't meet.the expectations set out by the CRNC. Basically if we need an mcdv we can find a bunch of civi ships that will do the job.

until a new CRNC?

 

[Underway]

This is the same Navy that has called the CSC a destroyer when the majority of the world would classify it as a frigate, calling an OPV a corvette would fit the theme lol.

Because it is a destroyer. We've been over this. Role not tonnage or number of VLS. I would agree it's probably under gunned for a destroyer but it's sensors and combat management, comms make it a destroyer. The H part is weird though, that seems new, not that it's wrong.

We seem to be making our own designations up with a flair towards history, corvettes would track with that.

I still think a proper OPV is a very valuable capability for Canada, we don't strictly need a corvette in my opinion.

OPV is fine. I'm a fan. Call it an OPV then.

Are we going to be using civilian ships in peacetime to fill the roles of the MCDV's? We still need presence vessels able to be deployed at home and abroad for a variety of missions, that isn't easily doable if you want to lump those duties onto the AOPS and use civilian vessels during wartime/for whatever else. This is where a cheap and cheerful proper MCDV successor comes in, the cheap part goes away fast the more it is turned into a corvette.

The MCDV is an offshore work vessel. if the navy needs one they can be bought without having to do a bespoke design or a whole "modular corvette" program.

A corvette indicates in some level a combatant of some type. A hull optimized for taking modules to do various missions like ASW would make sense. Not as cheap and certainly more grumpy then an MCDV.

If that looks like an OPV I'm fine with it.

 

[Maxman1]

I guess it depends on what "light" means to different people.

The German K130 corvettes have 4x anti-ship missiles, 2x RAM launchers, 2x 27mm RWS, and a 76mm gun. That's "light" compared to a frigate or destroyer, but it's still a lot of capability in a small platform.

In a Canadian sense light means a 25mm to 40mm and 50 cal.positions.

Light through the rumour mill could mean anything.

What if we reused the 57mm from the Halifax class as they retire?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It doesn't meet.the expectations set out by the CRNC. Basically if we need an mcdv we can find a bunch of civi ships that will do the job.

and where are they going to find those sized vessels in a hurry if needed, because everyone else is going to be looking for the same? Our domestic fishing fleet is already small and smaller when look to a similar tonnage/capabilities that the MCDV have. I personally think split the number into OPV/Corvette and modern Mine/route clearance vessels similar in size to the MCDV's.

 

[Underway]

and where are they going to find those sized vessels in a hurry if needed, because everyone else is going to be looking for the same? Our domestic fishing fleet is already small and smaller when look to a similar tonnage/capabilities that the MCDV have. I personally think split the number into OPV/Corvette and modern Mine/route clearance vessels similar in size to the MCDV's.

Looks at coast guard and AOPS.

We already own a bunch.

 

[suffolkowner]

and where are they going to find those sized vessels in a hurry if needed, because everyone else is going to be looking for the same? Our domestic fishing fleet is already small and smaller when look to a similar tonnage/capabilities that the MCDV have. I personally think split the number into OPV/Corvette and modern Mine/route clearance vessels similar in size to the MCDV's.

6 of these and 6 of those and 6 of another

 

[Underway]

What if we reused the 57mm from the Halifax class as they retire?

I would be fine with that on a proper corvette. But not necessary on an OPV. Need that FC radar to properly operate a 57mm, so you would have to pull CMS and the FC from the CPF as well.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Looks at coast guard and AOPS.

We already own a bunch.

CCG ships are already heavily tasked and many are old. The next generation of multi-purpose ships will be 8,000 tons, so not ideal for the job. I would not bet heavily on the CCG back filling RCN roles and even if they did, it would be route survey on critical routes to our harbours. So no expeditionary mine clearance capability, unless you strip the AOP's from the coasts.

You be lucky to have two AOPs operating on each coast(one in refit on each coast), till the open ice season happens and then likely two patrolling the north. CCG might be persuaded to give the RCN the two AOP's they are getting, if they have enough of their purpose built ships.

 

[Underway]

What would folks here think the dividing line between corvette and OPV is with regards to weapons?

I personally think that it's probably when the OPV can sink another OPV of its same tonnage and provide some protection against same for an escorted ship.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Personally, I think it's when an OPV size vessel can take care of itself in a hostile environment. It means having a reasonable Air/Surface search radar, a combat system, a reasonable gun (57mm +), AAW weapon (8 cells for ESSM is enough) and a sonar to at least know you should be running away.

 

[suffolkowner]

How small a ship can you squeeze the Halifax weapon/sensors onto?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

How small a ship can you squeeze the Halifax weapon/sensors onto?

Not a great deal smaller and still effectively fight in the North Atlantic/North Pacific.

 

[suffolkowner]

Not a great deal smaller and still effectively fight in the North Atlantic/North Pacific.

disappointing but expected lol.
Was it @Underway or @Lumber that suggested moving the equipment to a new build light frigate instead of throwing more and more money at Halifax refits?
there was a picture on Navy lookout of a type 23 stripped to the bones