Climate disasters will be part of defence update as strains grow, minister says

[Good2Golf]

Canadian FEMA... like the US FEMA, but mooching off gaslighting the provinces and municipalities when they aren’t able to cover off the difference between their own contributions and what the feds promise to increase their standing in the polls…

 

[foresterab]

Rules are still on the books in Alberta allowing Conscription. Off the top of my head it's 18-55 MALES only with the exception of certain roles:
1) priests enroute to a funeral
2) judges or lawyers enroute to trial
3) Doctors or nurses enroute to a medical call
4) members of the police/military on active duty.

Historically they would shut the transcanada highway down and conscript men to get the first wave of resources while other staff would arrange for volunteers to be organized to replace them if possible. Post WW2 bars became the favored recruiting spots.

Now...yes I can conscript you (and we still do with equipment/operators) but you are also taking on the full legal liability of ensuring they are fit and able to work safely. OH&S rules and liability rulings have really changed the context of conscription. Even the USA with their convict crews staff them with volunteers for the most part.

Separate from the conscription question there are a couple of situations where I see the CAF as a critical resource:
1) Community evacuations where conditions do not allow for civilian aircraft to fly. The CAF is the only large pool of resources able to evacuate many northern/isolated communities especially if smoked in or lacking ground egress routes. Northwest Territories this summer was a good example of this
2) To supplement and/or cover a sector of public security. The CAF represents a uniformed, organized, mobile (yes...I say it with a straight face knowing the issues you're facing) force that can help secure an area under going a state of emergency especially if residents have been evacuated. High River in 2013 is a good example of this being a short term (a week?) long mission until the RCMP and other agencies could replace them.
3) specialized tasks not covered by civilian agencies. I think of the artillery work done in BC passes for avalanche control, work done in the 1998 icestorm to connect diesel electric locomotives to hospitals (iirc the military was involved in the task), and maybe the use of the CP-140 aurora in Manitoba -2019 where thermal imagery was used to try to locate individuals (one could argue this also fits under RCMP).

I don't want to see the CAF as the strong backs role sandbagging/shovel operators in domestic response despite having them operate next door to my home this summer (Many thanks to those who came out). But shovel duties are manpower sucks and I'd rather the CAF provide specialist knowledge/capacity instead of replacing other provinces/countries who may be able to help. Cost recovery would be a good start if nothing else for establishing the cost comparisons of bringing in 200 Bombero Incidnerios de Forestales de Mexico from CONIFOR vs. 200 CAF members.

 

[AmmoTech90]

We used to run three tiers of CBRN response training to all levels of government and types of first responders. The first course was online, the second was at their location and DRDC Suffield would send trainers. The third was live agent, scenario based training in Suffield.
These courses delivered world class training to Canadian, and sometimes, allied first responders.
It cost money and was one of the first things cut when cuts were needed. In it's place was a 'framework' that described what should be done. And was never done. Last time I checked even the online training has been removed.

I hold out no hope for this delivering anything concrete - maybe more frameworks.

 

[OldSolduer]

We used to run three tiers of CBRN response training to all levels of government and types of first responders. The first course was online, the second was at their location and DRDC Suffield would send trainers. The third was live agent, scenario based training in Suffield.
These courses delivered world class training to Canadian, and sometimes, allied first responders.
It cost money and was one of the first things cut when cuts were needed. In it's place was a 'framework' that described what should be done. And was never done. Last time I checked even the online training has been removed.

I hold out no hope for this delivering anything concrete - maybe more frameworks.

Why does this not surprise me?

 

[CountDC]

Because the CAF is “free”…

and has nothing else to do but sit around drinking so might as well get some real work out of us.

 

[daftandbarmy]

We used to run three tiers of CBRN response training to all levels of government and types of first responders. The first course was online, the second was at their location and DRDC Suffield would send trainers. The third was live agent, scenario based training in Suffield.
These courses delivered world class training to Canadian, and sometimes, allied first responders.
It cost money and was one of the first things cut when cuts were needed. In it's place was a 'framework' that described what should be done. And was never done. Last time I checked even the online training has been removed.

I hold out no hope for this delivering anything concrete - maybe more frameworks convening.

There, FTFY

 

[kratz]

MGen (Ret'd) Seymour, B.F. (2023), former DCO, CJOC, argues that the CAF is only one part of the country's emergency management system, where provinces hold primary jurisdiction over their respective areas. His key argument is that the success of Op LENTUS obscures available local capabilities and hides underfunded gaps. I agree with the position of the CAF charging costs back to the province

I don't want to see the CAF as the strong backs role sandbagging/shovel operators in domestic response despite having them operate next door to my home this summer (Many thanks to those who came out). But shovel duties are manpower sucks and I'd rather the CAF provide specialist knowledge/capacity instead of replacing other provinces/countries who may be able to help. Cost recovery would be a good start if nothing else for establishing the cost comparisons of bringing in 200 Bombero Incidnerios de Forestales de Mexico from CONIFOR vs. 200 CAF members.

As discussed earlier, the Humanitarian Workforce (HWF) program (Public Safety Canada, 2023) has stable funding for three years (Apr 2023-Mar 2026), for the four major participating NGOs—Canadian Red Cross (CRC), St. John Ambulance (SJA), Salvation Army (SA) and Ground Search and Rescue (GSAR)—to encourage their volunteers to take on a more significant role disaster preparedness and response roles (Public Service Canada, 2023). The HWF program intends to reduce the reliance on the CAF for routine recovery activities. The HWF program draws on examples from other international models, such as Germany's Technical Relief (THW) program (Wilson, 2023). There will be growing pains as the HWF program develops, so I have focused my thesis on the challenges of attracting and retaining the required volunteers for a successful HWF program.

References:

Public Safety Canada. (2023, July 11). Government of Canada continues to build disaster response capacity to large-scale disasters. [News release]. Government of Canada. Government of Canada continues to build disaster response capacity to large-scale disasters - Canada.ca

Seymour, B.F. (2023). The Canadian Armed Forces in Canada’s domestic emergency management systems: Masking gaps in civil society. On Track, 31, 12-29. Canadian Defence Academy Institute. https://cdainstitute.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Ontrack-vol-31-november-2023.pdf

Wilson, A. (2023, November 9). Rising domestic operational deployments and challenges for the Canadian Armed Forces. Standing Committee on National Defence. Evidence - NDDN (44-1) - No. 81 - House of Commons of Canada

 

[daftandbarmy]

MGen (Ret'd) Seymour, B.F. (2023), former DCO, CJOC, argues that the CAF is only one part of the country's emergency management system, where provinces hold primary jurisdiction over their respective areas. His key argument is that the success of Op LENTUS obscures available local capabilities and hides underfunded gaps. I agree with the position of the CAF charging costs back to the province



As discussed earlier, the Humanitarian Workforce (HWF) program (Public Safety Canada, 2023) has stable funding for three years (Apr 2023-Mar 2026), for the four major participating NGOs—Canadian Red Cross (CRC), St. John Ambulance (SJA), Salvation Army (SA) and Ground Search and Rescue (GSAR)—to encourage their volunteers to take on a more significant role disaster preparedness and response roles (Public Service Canada, 2023). The HWF program intends to reduce the reliance on the CAF for routine recovery activities. The HWF program draws on examples from other international models, such as Germany's Technical Relief (THW) program (Wilson, 2023). There will be growing pains as the HWF program develops, so I have focused my thesis on the challenges of attracting and retaining the required volunteers for a successful HWF program.

References:

Public Safety Canada. (2023, July 11). Government of Canada continues to build disaster response capacity to large-scale disasters. [News release]. Government of Canada. Government of Canada continues to build disaster response capacity to large-scale disasters - Canada.ca

Seymour, B.F. (2023). The Canadian Armed Forces in Canada’s domestic emergency management systems: Masking gaps in civil society. On Track, 31, 12-29. Canadian Defence Academy Institute. https://cdainstitute.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Ontrack-vol-31-november-2023.pdf

Wilson, A. (2023, November 9). Rising domestic operational deployments and challenges for the Canadian Armed Forces. Standing Committee on National Defence. Evidence - NDDN (44-1) - No. 81 - House of Commons of Canada

Hey CAF

 

[Kirkhill]

Hey CAF

Yup.

 

[Kirkhill]

Next step...

Transfer the Rangers and 2 CAD's Yellow Fleets out from under the CAF

 

[Blackadder1916]

Canadian FEMA... like the US FEMA, . . .

. . . but mooching off the provinces and municipalities

The major difference between existing (federal) emergency/disaster "management" in Canada and the USA is consolidation of activity. In the USA that has been mostly packed into a single identifiable agency accessible to lower levels of government as well as private individuals and groups. Canada, however, probably provides (or can/could) the same services but there is no single, publicly identifiable, point of contact to deliver it, which in most cases is money.

While FEMA does maintain some capacity of equipment and personnel available for the "response" phase of a disaster, most of their focus is on the other phases - preparedness, [response], recovery, and mitigation (I'll use these as the continuum of disaster management as that's how it was described in the U of Wisconsin Disaster Management Diploma program that I did nearly thirty years ago - the study material is still available on-line for those interested).



Even south of the border most of the lifting and toting is done by the locals.

While it is relatively easy easier to navigate the FEMA website to find out who does what and when and to actually request assistance, the same can't be said when wading through the Public Safety Canada Emergency Management pages. It seems to acknowledge that much the same, or similar, regulations are in place in Canada but it doesn't leave one a rosy glow that there's someone at the end of a phone line to answer when the fit hits the shan.

Sajjan said there are some lessons to be learned from the FEMA model in the U.S., but he seemed more interested in examining the German and Australian agencies. Both of them lean heavily on local and regional resources, and play more of a co-ordinating role.

FEMA works well (when it works well, which it often does) because it fits into the American governmental and political (and social/cultural) framework.

That may not translate to Canada. Germany and (perhaps, especially) Australia may be better models. I lean more to the German model but that's because I was more familiar with the local operational aspect of their disaster response. However, both depend on a specific culture of volunteerism that may not be the same in Canada. While the EMO may not have survived its penny-ante Cold War existence (along with snakes and ladders), there was once a federal civilian organization for disaster preparedness, even if most of those disasters were envisioned to involve nuclear weapons.

 

[Remius]

All I see in your diagram is a reverse slope defensive position…

 

[kratz]

Blackadder1916,


FEMA 2016 continues to use the same framework today:

 

[foresterab]

FEMA only this year aligned their training with the National Wildfire Coordination Group (USFS, BL, Nat'l Parks, US Dept. of Defense amongst others). So just because they have the ability to be the top dog on a national level incident does not mean they have always succeeded...and the changes this year were a good step towards de-escalating the turf wars/chest pounding that had been happening somewhat.

The other challenge is jurisdiction as FBI, Homeland Security or other agencies may be more appropriate than FEMA. Hurricane Katrina was very different than the some of the bombing terrorist incidents in the US.

Now where FEMA, or other similar European Agencies really shine in my books is in the mid-stage to late stages of an incident. They are able to pull upon a different pool of subject matter experts, cross-jurisdiction (State/province/agency), and deal not just with the emergency response side of things but the recovery. If one follows a normal escalation matrix
1) discovery of issue 2) Local response 3) Call for assistance/Local emergency declaration 4) Local State of Emergency Declaration allows for escalation to higher level resources/provincial assistance. 5) Provincial State of Emergency declared 6) National declaration?

So even this summer...as nutters as it was on the wildfire front...was only at level 5 declarations. No national state of emergency was declared which means that a FEMA-like organization may provide assistance through mutual aid but does not fully activate. If I look at the US they are about coordination of other manpower resources provided by Municipal/State/Federal Department Agencies and/or establishing the clear funding of incidents (people often forget how important it is to have the response paid for/keep contractors operating) and/or taking over once the initial incident has stabilized but may require multi-year recovery.

 

[lenaitch]

Is co-ordinating the same as convening?

*****

Rules are still on the books in Alberta allowing Conscription. Off the top of my head it's 18-55 MALES only with the exception of certain roles:
1) priests enroute to a funeral
2) judges or lawyers enroute to trial
3) Doctors or nurses enroute to a medical call
4) members of the police/military on active duty.

Historically they would shut the transcanada highway down and conscript men to get the first wave of resources while other staff would arrange for volunteers to be organized to replace them if possible. Post WW2 bars became the favored recruiting spots.

Now...yes I can conscript you (and we still do with equipment/operators) but you are also taking on the full legal liability of ensuring they are fit and able to work safely. OH&S rules and liability rulings have really changed the context of conscription. Even the USA with their convict crews staff them with volunteers for the most part.

Separate from the conscription question there are a couple of situations where I see the CAF as a critical resource:
1) Community evacuations where conditions do not allow for civilian aircraft to fly. The CAF is the only large pool of resources able to evacuate many northern/isolated communities especially if smoked in or lacking ground egress routes. Northwest Territories this summer was a good example of this
2) To supplement and/or cover a sector of public security. The CAF represents a uniformed, organized, mobile (yes...I say it with a straight face knowing the issues you're facing) force that can help secure an area under going a state of emergency especially if residents have been evacuated. High River in 2013 is a good example of this being a short term (a week?) long mission until the RCMP and other agencies could replace them.
3) specialized tasks not covered by civilian agencies. I think of the artillery work done in BC passes for avalanche control, work done in the 1998 icestorm to connect diesel electric locomotives to hospitals (iirc the military was involved in the task), and maybe the use of the CP-140 aurora in Manitoba -2019 where thermal imagery was used to try to locate individuals (one could argue this also fits under RCMP).

I don't want to see the CAF as the strong backs role sandbagging/shovel operators in domestic response despite having them operate next door to my home this summer (Many thanks to those who came out). But shovel duties are manpower sucks and I'd rather the CAF provide specialist knowledge/capacity instead of replacing other provinces/countries who may be able to help. Cost recovery would be a good start if nothing else for establishing the cost comparisons of bringing in 200 Bombero Incidnerios de Forestales de Mexico from CONIFOR vs. 200 CAF members.

In the late '60s, between college and getting a real job, I decided to bike out west. That was the era of everybody hitch-hiking everywhere and hostels were all over the place. I was staying the night at the Banff hostel and word started going around that 'they' were coming in tomorrow to draft everyone into fighting fires. I had no clue if they could actually do that but de-camped before dawn just in case. It might have just been a rumour so they could clear out the hostel so they could hose it down.

 

[KevinB]

FEMA only this year aligned their training with the National Wildfire Coordination Group (USFS, BL, Nat'l Parks, US Dept. of Defense amongst others). So just because they have the ability to be the top dog on a national level incident does not mean they have always succeeded...and the changes this year were a good step towards de-escalating the turf wars/chest pounding that had been happening somewhat.

The other challenge is jurisdiction as FBI, Homeland Security or other agencies may be more appropriate than FEMA. Hurricane Katrina was very different than the some of the bombing terrorist incidents in the US.

Now where FEMA, or other similar European Agencies really shine in my books is in the mid-stage to late stages of an incident. They are able to pull upon a different pool of subject matter experts, cross-jurisdiction (State/province/agency), and deal not just with the emergency response side of things but the recovery. If one follows a normal escalation matrix
1) discovery of issue 2) Local response 3) Call for assistance/Local emergency declaration 4) Local State of Emergency Declaration allows for escalation to higher level resources/provincial assistance. 5) Provincial State of Emergency declared 6) National declaration?

So even this summer...as nutters as it was on the wildfire front...was only at level 5 declarations. No national state of emergency was declared which means that a FEMA-like organization may provide assistance through mutual aid but does not fully activate. If I look at the US they are about coordination of other manpower resources provided by Municipal/State/Federal Department Agencies and/or establishing the clear funding of incidents (people often forget how important it is to have the response paid for/keep contractors operating) and/or taking over once the initial incident has stabilized but may require multi-year recovery.

One aspect you don’t mention that FEMA does and IMHO one of the key aspects to their successes when they have had them; access to equipment and other resources from national pools.

FEMA has an ass ton of mobile housing - ATCO trailers and the like.

Simply being able to house responders is a major part of the early response.

 

[RangerRay]

One aspect you don’t mention that FEMA does and IMHO one of the key aspects to their successes when they have had them; access to equipment and other resources from national pools.

FEMA has an ass ton of mobile housing - ATCO trailers and the like.

Simply being able to house responders is a major part of the early response.

Shh…those are for the concentration camps!

 

[daftandbarmy]

One aspect you don’t mention that FEMA does and IMHO one of the key aspects to their successes when they have had them; access to equipment and other resources from national pools.

FEMA has an ass ton of mobile housing - ATCO trailers and the like.

Simply being able to house responders is a major part of the early response.

And a real budget: about $30B I think.

This is something we're not likely to see in a Canadian Federal approach to emergencies...

 

[kratz]

The federal government began funding the Humanitarian Workforce (HWF) program in 2022, through 2026, providing financial support of $218 million. to the four participating NGOs--Canadian Red Cross, St. John Ambulance, Salvation Army and Ground Search & Rescue (Kanga, 2023).

With today's announcement of the Nova Scotia Guard, it looks like the province is looking to fill a gap which the HWF is not meeting (Short, 2024; Thomas, 2024).



References:

Kanga, J. (2023, July 11). Government of Canada continues to build disaster response capacity to large-scale disasters [News Release]. Public Safety Canada. Government of Canada continues to build disaster response capacity to large-scale disasters - Canada.ca

Short, R. (2024, March 28). Houston pitches new volunteer organization to help during natural disasters. CBC news. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova...-environment-tim-houston-volunteers-1.7158273

Thomas, J. (2024, March 28). Premier Tim Houston sets up emergency Nova Scotia Guard. Atlantic CTV news. Premier Tim Houston sets up emergency Nova Scotia Guard