Leave Policy – Christmas / Holidays [Merged]

[Danjanou]

SafetysOff your post was deleted by Mods. Consider this your one freebie. I would suggest you put the safety on before you have another ND.

Staff

 

[Pusser]

I have some expertise in this area.  Let's take a look.  My comments are in red:

QR&O 16.01 – WITHHOLDING OF AND RECALL FROM LEAVE

(1) Leave may be withheld from an officer or non- commissioned member only when there is a military requirement to do so.  Although one can argue the Duty Watch is an imperative military requirement, poor administration in setting the duty roster is not

(2) An officer or non-commissioned member on leave may be recalled to duty only:
(a) because of imperative military requirements; and
(b) when the member’s commanding officer personally directs the member’s return to duty. (i.e. only the CO can cancel or recall someone from leave - not the RPO, not the coxswain, not the HOD or CHOD)

(3) An officer or non-commissioned member recalled to duty under paragraph (2) ceases to be on leave and is on duty during the period of the journey from the place from which he is recalled to his place of duty and during the period of the return journey if he resumes leave immediately after completion of the duty for which he was recalled. CBI 209.54 provides reimbursement for expenses incurred as a result of cancellation or recall (i.e. if you've already bought a plane ticket after your leave was approved, we pay you back - out of the unit budget)

My questions:
1 Doesn’t a leave pass mean you don’t need to report for duty? Yes, that's exactly what a leave pass does.  It is documentary proof that you have permission to be away from your place of duty
2 I thought it was mandatory for my unit to allow me to go to my next of kin for the leave period, am I wrong?  No this is not precisely true.  Although your unit must give you leave (QR&O 16.01 Para 1) within certain perameters, the unit does control when you can go.
3 They made us write ‘Member responsible for duty watch’ on our leave passes, is this allowed?  I can't point to a regulation (because the concept is outlandish), but in my opinion it is p*ss poor leadership and management.  A little planning and preparation can avoid this altogether.
4 I have heard of, but haven’t found, a reference that says members taking 15 or more days of leave are to be taken off the duty watch.  Again, not strictly true; however, once a leave pass is approved, only the CO can change it (which may cost him money out of his budget, so he will be reluctant).  If the leave is approved, we go back to the answer to Question 1, which is to say that you cannot be placed on the Duty Watch for your leave period.  Another way of putting this is, if you have an approved leave pass and they want to put you on duty after that leave has been approved, it would require the CO's personal approval and possible reimbursement to the member.  On the other hand, if you decide after the duty roster is posted that you want to take leave at that time, then you would be required to find your replacement.
5 Do units have to have ‘block leave’ at Christmas?  No, essential services must be maintained.  However, direction from the very top is that everyone is to be encouraged to use as much leave as possible so as to avoid having to pay out leave at the end of the fiscal year

I know this is a lot of complaining, but I was in the Army before and I never had a leave problem until I joined that Navy.

Thanks

I'm very disappointed that someone would be having trouble with this.  In every ship or unit in which I have served in the Navy, we always took  great pains to ensure everyone got a chance to enjoy their leave.  At Christmas time in particular we bent over backwards to ensure the single guys got to go home and even the married guys with young kids got to spend Christmas morning with them.  This idea of not wanting to do multiple leave passes because it would be too much trouble is complete BS.  The form only allows you to list consecutive days.  If there is a break, then you need to do another leave pass.  Otherwise, we'd only do one leave pass a year - think about it.

 

[medicineman]

I'm trying to bite my tongue here, but I can not only guess what coast this dude is on, but likely guess what ship as well...

MM

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I'm very disappointed that someone would be having trouble with this.  In every ship or unit in which I have served in the Navy, we always took  great pains to ensure everyone got a chance to enjoy their leave.  At Christmas time in particular we bent over backwards to ensure the single guys got to go home and even the married guys with young kids got to spend Christmas morning with them.   This idea of not wanting to do multiple leave passes because it would be too much trouble is complete BS.  The form only allows you to list consecutive days.  If there is a break, then you need to do another leave pass.  Otherwise, we'd only do one leave pass a year - think about it.

Same here. Single Senior NCMs and married guys with older families always tried to cover off the slots so that younger guys, married and single, could get the time off. I still remember WOs on fire piquet over the holidays.

Guess that idea must be old fashioned and out of date.

 

[dapaterson]

Leadership:  You are always an example to your subordinates.  Try to be a good one.

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

I have some expertise in this area.  Let's take a look.  My comments are in red:

QR&O 16.01 – WITHHOLDING OF AND RECALL FROM LEAVE

(1) Leave may be withheld from an officer or non- commissioned member only when there is a military requirement to do so.  Although one can argue the Duty Watch is an imperative military requirement, poor administration in setting the duty roster is not

(2) An officer or non-commissioned member on leave may be recalled to duty only:
(a) because of imperative military requirements; and
(b) when the member’s commanding officer personally directs the member’s return to duty. (i.e. only the CO can cancel or recall someone from leave - not the RPO, not the coxswain, not the HOD or CHOD)

(3) An officer or non-commissioned member recalled to duty under paragraph (2) ceases to be on leave and is on duty during the period of the journey from the place from which he is recalled to his place of duty and during the period of the return journey if he resumes leave immediately after completion of the duty for which he was recalled. CBI 209.54 provides reimbursement for expenses incurred as a result of cancellation or recall (i.e. if you've already bought a plane ticket after your leave was approved, we pay you back - out of the unit budget)

I'm very disappointed that someone would be having trouble with this.  In every ship or unit in which I have served in the Navy, we always took  great pains to ensure everyone got a chance to enjoy their leave.  At Christmas time in particular we bent over backwards to ensure the single guys got to go home and even the married guys with young kids got to spend Christmas morning with them.  This idea of not wanting to do multiple leave passes because it would be too much trouble is complete BS.  The form only allows you to list consecutive days.  If there is a break, then you need to do another leave pass.  Otherwise, we'd only do one leave pass a year - think about it.

Pusser ... well said.  Being a former sailor (10 Years) I've seen and been in this situation before. to make a "mbr responsible for duty watch" clause on a leave pass is contrary to the concept of leave and simply a mechanism to make the RPO not repsonsible to do thier job.

The other side of this is IF the leave was approved prior to the publishing of the duty watch rotation than this very clearly falls into a recall from annual leave. This is a command function and in my new world of the Artillery (5 years) in my Troop Commander Days, I couldn't recall a soldier from leave, hell my Battery Commander couldn't. (In theory he could, he does have a small travel read TD budget that could be used) but this is held at the Regimental Level beginning with me explaining my leadership failure to the CO.

I've also read the comments and the rhetoric of this is the RCN not the Army. That's right but our Queen's Regulations and Orders come from the same book in the Canadian Forces our pay comes from the same Federal Budget.  Now I do understand the requirement for a duty watch, in the Army we have those too. Not as large we don't have the same requirements. Naval Duty Watches are larger (except on the Victoria, Kingston, and Orca Classes) and with good reason, someone needs to keep her afloat. That said there is always a way around duty watch scheduling and repairing it after the regulating office screws it up without making it the sailors family's problem.

Food for thought for the aggrieved Sailor.  expect this to be an uphill fight anything worth fighting for is, and probably plan to be working next Christmas.

 

[ModlrMike]

We seem to have this discussion every year. Last year I believe it was some Air Force member asking if they could be on call during leave. Is there no sense left? It's simple: you can't be on leave and on duty at the same time. The supervisors of these folks need to give their collective heads a shake.

 

[Tank Troll]

Germany was the same single guys got to fly home or go were ever on leave and married guys in the area did the duties. When I was in the Western Armour Regt the duty roster came out a month before leave was even thought about, and you could put your name in were ever an open block was. If you volunteered for duty on the 24,25 26 31 of December or 1 January you were free and clear of duty for 6 months. It all ways worked well.

 

[eurowing]

Germany was the same single guys got to fly home or go were ever on leave and married guys in the area did the duties. When I was in the Western Armour Regt the duty roster came out a month before leave was even thought about, and you could put your name in were ever an open block was. If you volunteered for duty on the 24,25 26 31 of December or 1 January you were free and clear of duty for 6 months. It all ways worked well.

Exactly how we did it in Germany with 1RCHA as well. I was a single rat and didn't usually go home on major holidays.  I would volunteer for those dates and be excused weekend duties for months!

 

[armyvern]

Germany was the same single guys got to fly home or go were ever on leave and married guys in the area did the duties. When I was in the Western Armour Regt the duty roster came out a month before leave was even thought about, and you could put your name in were ever an open block was. If you volunteered for duty on the 24,25 26 31 of December or 1 January you were free and clear of duty for 6 months. It all ways worked well.

Exactly how 99% of the Units I've served with have done it. It is quite normal to see all the Sgts and above pulling down all the Duty Supply Tech duty, working and staffing the IOR cells, manning the counters etc etc.

I've pulled a great many duties over the Holidays ... some of them weren't even extras.  8)

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Sadly these days the RCN in Halifax seem to lack common sense. Morale is steadily plummenting and there is a lot of talk of releases and the younger guys not serving beyond their current contract.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Exactly how 99% of the Units I've served with have done it. It is quite normal to see all the Sgts and above pulling down all the Duty Supply Tech duty, working and staffing the IOR cells, manning the counters etc etc.

I've pulled a great many duties over the Holidays ... some of them weren't even extras.  8)

Agreed you always make sure the single guys and gals get some family time over the holidays.

 

[ModlrMike]

Virtually every unit I've been part of has asked for volunteers to staff the duty watches over Christmas break. These folks were often rewarded with time in lieu as compensation. It's a failure of leadership to put someone on duty when you know they're on leave, and then expect them to sort it out. Leaders are responsible for personnel management based on available resources. Annotating a duty watch on a member's leave pass is abdicating one's responsibility as a leader.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Sadly these days the RCN in Halifax seem to lack common sense. Morale is steadily plummeting and there is a lot of talk of releases and the younger guys not serving beyond their current contract.

This deserves its whole own thread...

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I know it's not the case, but this whole episode makes the Navy look like selfish, incompetent idiots.

Too much time on Centennials, executive curls and name changes to take care of the troops, would be the guess of many.

 

[Strike]

Virtually every unit I've been part of has asked for volunteers to staff the duty watches over Christmas break. These folks were often rewarded with time in lieu as compensation. It's a failure of leadership to put someone on duty when you know they're on leave, and then expect them to sort it out. Leaders are responsible for personnel management based on available resources. Annotating a duty watch on a member's leave pass is abdicating one's responsibility as a leader.

My reward for holding the phone for the week after New Year's (even though I'm not on any duty list -- I volunteered) is gratitude.  ;D

Of course, I'm sure I would get reimbursed my leave if I get called in to work and that's just fine.  I've been to other units where we've done this when Holiday duties didn't include manning the duty centre 24/7.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I know it's not the case, but this whole episode makes the Navy look like selfish, incompetent idiots.

Too much time on Centennials, executive curls and name changes to take care of the troops, would be the guess of many.

Recceguy I see your point. But I have to say I have seen some pretty similar things go on in the Army.

Not starting a bun fight but I think its a bit unfair that the Navy gets singled out when we all know full well each element has its way at times.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Recceguy I see your point. But I have to say I have seen some pretty similar things go on in the Army.

Not starting a bun fight but I think its a bit unfair that the Navy gets singled out when we all know full well each element has its way at times.

However, this thread is about how the Navy, or some part of it, operates so let's not try deflect the conversation. Especially , since most Army people participating have shown that this is not the way we do it.

There is no doubt, that on the face of it, there are some serious problems with the way some of your boats and ships operate.

 

[armyvern]

Recceguy I see your point. But I have to say I have seen some pretty similar things go on in the Army.

Not starting a bun fight but I think its a bit unfair that the Navy gets singled out when we all know full well each element has its way at times.

The Navy had this same issue 22 years ago when I served with them wrt tossing people on duty when they were already on authorized leave during the holiday period. The tendancy by them to actually include a statement on a "CF 100 LEAVE AUTHORIZATION" (that IS it's official name!!) denoting that the mbr themselves needs to find a replacement if they get tossed on duty after that same said leave pass is signed as "authorized leave beginning on date X and ending on date Y" ... tells me that this is systemic wrt the HMCS that we are talking about and that, despite growing older, they haven't moved very far forward wrt this particular issue.

 

[aesop081]

As i am finding out these days, the RCN has unique ways of doing certain things that usually defy logic. While i think the situation is wrong, i don't think the OP will win this one and continue to enjoy life afterwards.