Leadership and Non-Issue Gear

[mover1]

I think you guys are too reliant on toys. Whenever I see a cad pat bag walking around an airport or the base ( in civvies mind you) I think this guy is too wrapped up in his job, or hey look at the militia guy. In my day we would go into the field with as little as possible. no need for FMP's with nice covers. No need for GPS. Hell as long as the troop Comdr and troop Wo knew our posn, that was all that was needed. Although at the time we did buy the necessities of life. American Rain Gear and a cave blanket (poncho liner) everything else was considered useless weight.

 

[Blackhorse7]

Mover 1, ever hear the old saying "only an idiot is uncomfortable in the field..."?

I'm sure going hardcore is a thing to pride one's self on, but if I could get kit that makes life in the field easier or happier, so much the better.

 

[mover1]

Mover 1, ever hear the old saying "only an idiot is uncomfortable in the field..."?

I'm sure going hardcore is a thing to pride one's self on, but if I could get kit that makes life in the field easier or happier, so much the better.

I did hear of that saying and yes you are right. But all I am saying when does comfort and looking gucci  become detrimental to each other. As for going hardcore. We never went hard core. We were just brought up in a different time and didn't know any better.

 

[KevinB]

Mover - I just dont know if I catch you at bad times but WTF dude.

I think you guys are too reliant on toys.

If its stupid and it works - it aint stupid.

Whenever I see a cad pat bag walking around an airport or the base ( in civvies mind you) I think this guy is too wrapped up in his job, or hey look at the militia guy.

Maybe - but maybe he spent what money he had in a good bag, and as such uses it for civy side stuff too

In my day we would go into the field with as little as possible. no need for FMP's with nice covers. No need for GPS. Hell as long as the troop Comdr and troop Wo knew our posn, that was all that was needed.

 

[mover1]

Mover - I just don't know if I catch you at bad times but WTF dude.

Actually I just say the stuff to stir the Shiite. I still have my flight bag I bought in 1990. And my plate bag I got off of the Regimental MAT TECH.
I went out and bought a watch cover. Used it for about two weeks and threw it out because all it did was cause a lot of sweat and started to stink.
But its true about the cad pat bag though. I tend to travel a lot and you can always pick out the army guys by their carry on luggage. 
I used to be a big "kit whore" when I was first in. I had an account at the REGT KIT Shop and we were always over there checking out the new gear. I bought tonnes of it. Now it sits in a box in the garage. My wife wants me to throw it away but I wont let her. Even though most of the issued stuff today is far superior to what we had 10-15 years ago. 

Ask your selves these questions before you buy anything.
Will you need it past this next training period?
Does it have any practical purpose beyond my time in service?
Am I buying it on impulse?
Do I need or am I trying to show off.
In the end buy what you want, buy what you like. Its your money. You earned it.

 

[PhilB]

I agree and disagree with that statment. Why rely on substandard, uncomfortable kit if you have the money to get what works. I agree spending thousands of dolloars on kit, to use soley in a reserve weekend exercise is a bit crazy, however why be uncomfortable? If you have the money, and the need then why not

 

[Grunt]

I agree spending thousands of dolloars on kit, to use soley in a reserve weekend exercise is a bit crazy

AWWWWWWWWWW ;D

Some nonstandard kit is pretty usefull, like Camelbacks, assault packs, stiffer belts, suspenders, an AR15 rifle/Browning Hipower to practice with on my own time (or several lol, okay i just had to put that in), ;D non standard vest , nomex flight gloves, US Poncho to go with ranger blanket, surefire lights, slings and better boots is money well spent, but I could never understand why someone would want to buy loads of gucci stuff from cpgear, who needs a CADPAT FMP when a 2 dollar notepad in a ziplock works better, watch band with velcro??? RIIIPP whenever you want to check your watch :, a washbasin, just use the canteen cup!, a pillow??, just use your assault pack, ruck, buttpack etc.

 

[NATO Boy]

The are two sayings that pop up every time I think of getting aftermarket kit...

"If it isn't broken...don't fix it." - (ie, if you're gonna be issued it, or something close to it that works, don't bother buying it.)

"If the shoe fits, wear it." - (ie, if a patrol bag helps you carry your mission essentials, or if buying a Blackhawk GPMG sling makes hauling the C6 more friendly, have at 'er.)

But just to reinforce this...

If its stupid and it works - it aint stupid.

Why rely on substandard, uncomfortable kit if you have the money to get what works.

 

[mover1]

AWWWWWWWWWW ;D

Some nonstandard kit is pretty usefull, like Camelbacks, assault packs, stiffer belts, suspenders, an AR15 rifle/Browning Hipower to practice with on my own time (or several lol, okay i just had to put that in), ;D non standard vest , nomex flight gloves, US Poncho to go with ranger blanket, surefire lights, slings and better boots is money well spent, but I could never understand why someone would want to buy loads of gucci stuff from cpgear, who needs a CADPAT FMP when a 2 dollar notepad in a ziplock works better, watch band with velcro??? RIIIPP whenever you want to check your watch :, a washbasin, just use the canteen cup!, a pillow??, just use your assault pack, ruck, buttpack etc.

I agree whole heartedly.Some of the stuff is good while others is useless weight.
The camelback is issued in some areas.
Better boots. Especially safety boots. I have a pair on right now.
Nomex flying gloves issued, you just have to be on the right scale of issue to get them. 
If you need a pillow in the fieldall you need to do is look closely at your gortex jacket. at the bottom by your bum there is a zipper. fold the jacket into it and voila an instant pillow. Wind going up your parka? Take the elastic band from the back (by your bum again) and pull it through your legs and snap it onto the bottom button on the front. somebody thought hard designing this new stuff.
I must say that my favorite after market kit. If it isn't the watch band its the wallet thing that hangs around your neck. Tied with 550 cord its screams in violation of every safety practice ever taught. That and it looks so macho when in line at the mall when you go to pay for something.

 

[Mortar guy]

I have to wonder - any/all of you who are in leadership positions, do you buy gucci kit for your troops whenever you buy some for yourself? I ask this because its all well and good if you can afford shiny new kit like patrol packs, go-faster boots, gortex towels etc while your troops are making do with what they were issued. But, this may cause some problems. If your troops are suffering in the Mk III combat boots or humping C6 ammo in their POS nuke bags while you strut around in the latest in boot/patrol pack technology, it might cause a little resentment. Also, you could be driving your troops hard without any idea that they are about to go down with bad feet, bad backs, hypothermia, dehydration, whatever.

I am not saying that this will always happen or that buying any type of gucci kit is bad. I'm just saying that leaders who kit themselves out with all the latest while their Ptes make due with what they got from Base Supply could be asking for trouble.


And............. ATTACK!  :warstory:

mg

 

[NATO Boy]

I have to wonder - any/all of you who are in leadership positions, do you buy gucci kit for your troops whenever you buy some for yourself? I ask this because its all well and good if you can afford shiny new kit like patrol packs, go-faster boots, gortex towels etc while your troops are making do with what they were issued. But, this may cause some problems. If your troops are suffering in the Mk III combat boots or humping C6 ammo in their POS nuke bags while you strut around in the latest in boot/patrol pack technology, it might cause a little resentment. Also, you could be driving your troops hard without any idea that they are about to go down with bad feet, bad backs, hypothermia, dehydration, whatever.

I am not saying that this will always happen or that buying any type of gucci kit is bad. I'm just saying that leaders who kit themselves out with all the latest while their Ptes make due with what they got from Base Supply could be asking for trouble.


And............. ATTACK!  :warstory:

mg

When I was on course, the only thing I was allowed to use for after-market kit was a nuke bag. The course staff, however, had restrictions too (ie, they mostly had to use issued kit, with only a few exceptions like patrol bags) and there was even forbidden kit they couldn't use while teaching a course (ie camelbaks.) At unit level, however, it's fair game (hell, the Ptes and Fus's have more after-market kit than anyone else in our regt.)

 

[foerestedwarrior]

I have to wonder - any/all of you who are in leadership positions, do you buy gucci kit for your troops whenever you buy some for yourself? I ask this because its all well and good if you can afford shiny new kit like patrol packs, go-faster boots, gortex towels etc while your troops are making do with what they were issued. But, this may cause some problems. If your troops are suffering in the Mk III combat boots or humping C6 ammo in their POS nuke bags while you strut around in the latest in boot/patrol pack technology, it might cause a little resentment. Also, you could be driving your troops hard without any idea that they are about to go down with bad feet, bad backs, hypothermia, dehydration, whatever.

I am not saying that this will always happen or that buying any type of gucci kit is bad. I'm just saying that leaders who kit themselves out with all the latest while their Ptes make due with what they got from Base Supply could be asking for trouble.


And............. ATTACK!   :warstory:

mg

How is it bad? If a leader is under less pain and crap, they can make better decisions. If a leader cant reconize problems with their troops, they are either new to the game, or innefective.
On the resentment issue, that is just too much PC crap. If someone is so stupid to get pissed at how an instructor is using a patrol pack with a semi rigged back, and they only have a POS nuke bage with no support. Then they can deal with it.

Leaders lead, they need to be in a good mind set to make sound and timley decisions, forcing them to use bad boots, or bat kit, just forces bad decisions.

 

[mover1]

How is it bad? If a leader is under less pain and crap, they can make better decisions. If a leader cant recognize problems with their troops, they are either new to the game, or ineffective.
On the resentment issue, that is just too much PC crap. If someone is so stupid to get pissed at how an instructor is using a patrol pack with a semi rigged back, and they only have a POS nuke bage with no support. Then they can deal with it.

Leaders lead, they need to be in a good mind set to make sound and timley decisions, forcing them to use bad boots, or bat kit, just forces bad decisions.

Lead by example, care for your troops. If you have the gizmo's with all the bells and whistle, you may become out of touch with reality. Saying a job should only take 15 minutes while actually it will take an hour  depending on the equip available and the mindset of your troops.

If you start crapping on people because they take too long because they never took any initiative and bought X piece of kit.  Or are complaining about being sore or tired and you crap on them again for not having the foresight to replace Y with Z piece of gear, you will find yourself alienated and hated.

But hey if you want the after market gear and like to wear it go ahead. I would be honoured to stand beside you.

You just may be wearing that one piece of gear to may a sniper look twice. Or better yet, the RSM to take notice and have you volunteer fore some special job

 

[KevinB]

I concure with Mover (  ??? bettcha didn't expect that one...)

foerestedwarrior - really poorly thoughtout post.

 

[mover1]

Never expected it....gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling. Some one agees with me.

 

[Infanteer]

Forested Warrior, that sucked.

Actually, Mortar Guy and Mover raise a very good point to a certain extent - one must lead by example.  If your a leader and you're strutting the latest line of Lightfighter Gear while everybody else is puttering around in the issue stuff, your tact may lead to earning a degree of resentment from your subordinates, regardless of whether the gear actually means anything in Army terms.  A leader should probably hold it as a rule to be more conservative then his troops to avoid unnecessary attention from both above and below the C-of-C.

I will submit a few points though - most of the issued stuff doesn't suck horribly.  If a guy is going to shell out 500 bucks for a Gucci CADPAT smock from Dropzone, his fellow soldiers won't suffer as the issued jacket does its job (although I hate it myself and never wear it).  If the C-of-C says something is good to go, I can guarantee you that more then just one guy will jump on the chance to play around with other gear.

As well, the "Lead by Example" can work the other way - if the C-of-C has given permission to use certain non-issue items (ie: The famous 3VP on Apollo scenario) and you as a leader find something that helps to do your job better, then doing it and sharing it with your fellow soldiers could be a good thing.

I'm willing to wager that this scenario of a leader "going Gucci" while his subordinates have to "put up with the issue stuff" won't happen because it usually is the troopies leading the way in new gear - they deal with it day in and day out everyday, and if given a bit of leeway, they'll usually take what they can. 

Besides, Officers usually spend their money on CADPAT Junior General kits....

 

[Michael Dorosh]

forestedwarrior's comments apply, though perhaps not with respect to kit.

For all those who complain because the CO gets a cot to sleep on, I think it needs to be remembered that the CO is responsible for 500 to 1000 troops and probably should be well rested and capable of making sound decisions.

With regards to personal kit, though, I'm not so sure the comments are as apt.

 

[Infanteer]

For all those who complain because the CO gets a cot to sleep on, I think it needs to be remembered that the CO is responsible for 500 to 1000 troops and probably should be well rested and capable of making sound decisions.

I'm not sure I buy that.   You could say that the poor guy manning the C-6 at 3 in the morning is responsible for ensuring that the company position doesn't get overun in a night attack by infiltrating enemy soldiers.  Everybody has to be on their game but expending the extra resources and energy to lug snivel kit in the field on account of rank doesn't pass in my books - I don't think a beauty sleep is a prerequisite for the CO to do his job.

Once you've sat in a watery hole and manned a defensive position while "command" sits in a mod tent a few hundred meters away with the generator chugging away, you begin to appreciate it when leaders take the same hardships as their soldiers.   Some may disagree with me, but it is something I feel strongly about and will carry with me throughout my career.

 

[Mortar guy]

I agree very strongly with Infanteer. I am not opposed to Gucci kit but I am pretty set in my ways when it comes to leading by example. By wearing all the latest kit you're telling your soldiers two messages: that our kit is junk (which may be the case but not as much today) and that there are two standards within the organization (i.e. those with a little disposable income get to be comfortable and those without have to suffer). The first message is not a huge deal but the second one is the one that bothers me the most. If act like command (and therefore higher rank) gives you the priviledge to be more comfortable or get more sleep, that might breed resentment.

I accept the argument that commanders need to be alert etc., but from what I have seen/read, commanders who share the hardships of their soldiers are often the most respected and admired while those who put their comforts above that of their soldiers are universally reviled.

MG

 

[Canadian Sig]

For all those who complain because the CO gets a cot to sleep on, I think it needs to be remembered that the CO is responsible for 500 to 1000 troops and probably should be well rested and capable of making sound decisions.

Entire Brigades can rely on my ability to transfer and send vital info at an extremly fast pace, at 0 notice, at 3 in the morning under fire. Do I get a cot? I mean really; If I get 1 number wrong on a grid reference during an arty call who pays? I agree with Mortar Boy: I respect officers who dig in and live the way the troops do. Just my 2 centavos.