Hybrid Electric Vehicles
- Thread starter Kirkhill
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You can believe this all you want. But most fleets around the the world are going electric. And it's simple economics. Cost per mile is all that matters to businesses. And given how much they drive, a few thousand dollars off a vehicle isn't enough to sway the decision.
But since you are convinced it's subsidies, go look for them. And please let us know. It would be highly useful for investors to know what subsidies Amazon is getting.
Are you referring to the polymer barriers in solid state batteries? In any event, this isn't a loaf of bread that goes moldy on the counter. But if you're they worried, it's clearly not for you. And that's fine. Not everybody has to convert over. And given the demographics of this forum, I'm fairly sure a good chunk won't actually have the chance to.
Well aware. And you should also be aware that no normal person is attempting to rebuild a battery pack.
There's a reason there's a strong plate on the bottom of EVs that borders on IED protection. If it's penetrated, you should probably avoid the vehicle.
Colin Parkinson
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Absolutely. We don’t protect National Critical Infrastructure as well as we should.
In the mean time, had a good chat with my neighbour over dinner last night about his Rivian R1T. He said at best it gets 60-65 of its advertised range, and even with a Level 2 charger in his house, only charges at about 30-35km range per hr. A recent trip to Toronto had him using a Tesla Supercharger twice there and back for $55 each charge, in addition to his hotel destination L2 charging in Toronto for $30. Tesla has an agreement with Rivan that permits using their Superchargers, but Rivian users pay a 35% over what a Tesla driver would. He said for the R1T’s price ($110K), he would have like range to match manufacturer’s claims and also not get screwed by Tesla. He said if he were doing it again, he’d get a Plug-In Hybrid, to get small commutes done with his home charger (he figures about $25/charge at home) and long range without the enroute financial beating for fast-DC charging (still 35 minutes for his Rivian to charge 80%).
I was surprised at the Supercharger cost, as was he, but those enroute charging costs flip the economics of EVs, at least for something like a Rivian pick-up (I’m sure the Cybertruck and Ford Lightening are similar.). He was in for $140 (55x2+40) not including his home charger before departure, and my diesel SUV is in at $97 at $1.65/L there and back on 3/4 tank. If I only committed short range from my rural home, I might consider an EV when my SUV gives up the ghost, but I still travel a lot and the intra-trip charge costs are crazy and flip the math, so not thanks for now, unless the enroute fast-DC charge rates fall.
In the mean time, had a good chat with my neighbour over dinner last night about his Rivian R1T. He said at best it gets 60-65 of its advertised range, and even with a Level 2 charger in his house, only charges at about 30-35km range per hr. A recent trip to Toronto had him using a Tesla Supercharger twice there and back for $55 each charge, in addition to his hotel destination L2 charging in Toronto for $30. Tesla has an agreement with Rivan that permits using their Superchargers, but Rivian users pay a 35% over what a Tesla driver would. He said for the R1T’s price ($110K), he would have like range to match manufacturer’s claims and also not get screwed by Tesla. He said if he were doing it again, he’d get a Plug-In Hybrid, to get small commutes done with his home charger (he figures about $25/charge at home) and long range without the enroute financial beating for fast-DC charging (still 35 minutes for his Rivian to charge 80%).
I was surprised at the Supercharger cost, as was he, but those enroute charging costs flip the economics of EVs, at least for something like a Rivian pick-up (I’m sure the Cybertruck and Ford Lightening are similar.). He was in for $140 (55x2+40) not including his home charger before departure, and my diesel SUV is in at $97 at $1.65/L there and back on 3/4 tank. If I only committed short range from my rural home, I might consider an EV when my SUV gives up the ghost, but I still travel a lot and the intra-trip charge costs are crazy and flip the math, so not thanks for now, unless the enroute fast-DC charge rates fall.
Again. What's the relevance? You shopping for a battery farm?
Like I've said before, economics drives this. Battery farms famously killed the Gas Peaker plant business because of economics. And that's a global phenomenon. Not just the US because of Biden or some imagined political agenda.
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/giant-batteries-drain-economics-gas-power-plants-2023-11-21/
Y'all can keep whining on here. Not going to convince a single utility CEO any different when his financial analyst shows him the numbers.
Colin Parkinson
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Operating costs for EV's are only going up. With greater adoption, the incentives will go away, and road taxes will be added. Regulations regarding curbside charging at home as well to consider. EV in my opinion will be a niche vehicle, a large niche but never the majority without some major technology change in batteries and major infrastructure changes.
Except they will have to get the NYFD on side which hasn't happened yet and after the California fire it won't happen for a long time. New York is under orders to go green regardless of cost or reliability so they have come up with the Manhattan battery storage unit to try to provide some stability. If the California fire were to happen in New York more than a million people would at the very least be ordered to shelter in place with the likelihood of having to evacuate. It is the type of scenario that causes insurance adjusters to jump out of windows: a million evacuees, ground transportation stopped, subways potentially grinding to a halt because of electrical failure or system shutdown. There are a half a dozen hospitals and clinics within the vulnerable area that would have to be emptied and you could expect panic and street fatalities as a result so unless they can change all the standards it is going to remain an idea only regardless of the financial analyst report. And then of course there is the coming of the Donald to through a wrench into all those plans by simply stopping the federal money
Whose fleets are those?
For many it would be bad economics as they don't produce their own electricity, they don't provide their own resources.
Until the true cost per mile is added, road tax. It appears through out Europe the price on charging is creeping up significantly recent times.
I know some of the largest vehicle fleets in the world do actually choose what they buy based on a few thousand dollars off the cost of each vehicle.
As for all electric fleets for some of the larger companies, they will always be looking for the best operating cost value fleet. For example UPS operates over 120,000 vehicles world wide, approximately 18,000 of them alternative fuels. NG, Electric, Hydrogen, etc. I don't ever think they will stop looking for the next cheaper less foot print vehicle. As I told the Amsoil Rep one day, if you can really reduce the companies fuel usage by 10% and reduce maintenance costs by the 20% the company would jump on board. Never got a call back for them to provide oil and fuel treatment for a fixed set of equipment to test.
There are many subsidies given for the transition for electric vehicles around the world. If you don't realize that then the conversation really should end here. Many of the subsidies are disappearing or being reduced significantly due to "economics" of the reality that electricity is expensive and not free. Disposal of "green" energy products is not as green as one would expect.
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That's why my conversation with the poster ended there... There is zero point arguing with a zealot.
Brad Sallows
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Companies are always sensitive to changing cost-revenue balances. As subsidies phase out, costs will increase. As vehicle fossil fuel consumption declines, other taxes will be implemented to draw from all fleet types, and costs will increase. Demand for electricity coupled with lagging generation capacity increases and government-mandated improvements to infrastructure (eg. burying lines in fire-prone regions) will push up electricity costs. Eventually the real costs of recycling/disposal will be better known and included with the up-front purchases.
I am optimistic we'll continue to see increasingly electrified transportation, just not on the schedule climate zealots - even the moderate ones - are pushing, and not "100% net-zero-emission" in the near future. And the adoption curve will be lumpy as governments introduce and remove various forms of subsidy. When this "first generation" of materials for the current wave of adoption starts to age out, there will be substantial political fights over recycling and disposal.
With luck, we'll get one or both of fusion and superconductivity for power line materials in the next couple of generations, but neither is to be counted on.
I am optimistic we'll continue to see increasingly electrified transportation, just not on the schedule climate zealots - even the moderate ones - are pushing, and not "100% net-zero-emission" in the near future. And the adoption curve will be lumpy as governments introduce and remove various forms of subsidy. When this "first generation" of materials for the current wave of adoption starts to age out, there will be substantial political fights over recycling and disposal.
With luck, we'll get one or both of fusion and superconductivity for power line materials in the next couple of generations, but neither is to be counted on.
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Would love to see an electric truck but remain nervous that they can do what i need from a half ton, 3/4 ton or 5 ton platform.
Can i get the equivalent energy and mileage out of an electric truck that i do out of a half ton that burns 90 L in a day sometimes 150L or a 3/4 ton doing 400 km?
Can i get the equivalent energy and mileage out of an electric truck that i do out of a half ton that burns 90 L in a day sometimes 150L or a 3/4 ton doing 400 km?
Check these guys out. About the best process I have seen so far. I even think it makes sense for Military Suppprt vehicles.
They are working on a system for pickup trucks.
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From my neighbour’s research before he *bought his Rivian, it sounds like the Ford Lightning may be the best bet for a work truck like you describe (1/2, 3/4). The bed is the most work like on the Ford, Rivian probably 2nd then Cybertruck 3rd as it has weird interior shapes in the bed for a work truck. It seems Edmunds agrees with Ford as a worktruck pick for now.
Rivian R1T vs. Toyota Tacoma TRD Pro: Is an EV or Hybrid Better Off-Road?
In our latest comparison test, we head off-road in the Rivian R1T and Toyota Tacoma TRD Pro to see if hybrid power or a fully electric setup is better when the going gets tough.
www.edmunds.com
ps. The Rivian is a very smooth riding truck for a 3/4! I haven’t driven a Lightning or Cybertruck, but I have driven the R1T, and I could see myself with one of those when my current ride dies.
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I also expect to see regional differences. Windmills and electric cars for a small island in the Pacific. Something different for urban runarounds with different central power supplies. Something else again for long haul transport.
Colin Parkinson
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I think Edison has hit the sweet spot for big trucks, all the gains of a EV with few of the drawbacks. Plus I like their position on right to repair.
I think the Diesel electric or gas electric is a great way to go. I can see a large Military application for this system. Every truck can run silent for 4 or five hours if required. When at the bivouac they can use the generator (s) to power the camp. Excellent ideas.
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