Hybrid Electric Vehicles

[ytz]

The British finally dumped lightweight vehicles like that because they got blown up alot. I wonder if it's already obsolete ...

A tool isn't obsolete because some people misuse them. There's a role for light vehicles. Ukrainians are showing this in spades.

And the biggest value in electrifying or hybridizing them is the reduced signature. Especially acoustic. And especially as deployable MEMS sensors become common. Also seen in Ukraine.

 

[Kirkhill]

A tool isn't obsolete because some people misuse them. There's a role for light vehicles. Ukrainians are showing this in spades.

And the biggest value in electrifying or hybridizing them is the reduced signature. Especially acoustic. And especially as deployable MEMS sensors become common. Also seen in Ukraine.

@ytz - I am happy to meet you half way. I am all for making things more efficient. The basic components of the Hybrid vehicles exist in the conventional ICE vehicle. The difference is that the emphasis is on a different syllable.

ICE and HEV - battery
ICE and HEV - electric motor (starter vs drive)
ICE and HEV - generator
ICE and HEV - ICE
ICE and HEV - fuel system
ICE and HEV - drive train

The change is evolutionary, not revolutionary.

And as to the notion of EV fleets - I grew up in Britain in the 1950s and 60s. My dad delivered milk by horse and wagon in Scotland until his father could afford to buy an ICE truck. That worked for a small market town with a large rural area. When we moved to London our milk was delivered by electric trucks (floats they were called). They were the common solution for all delivery services through out London. The power came from the same source that powered the Underground - the Battersea Power Station.




....



This is the Hoegdalenverket municipal power plant in Stockholm

Turning Waste into Energy at Högdalenverket | News - Smart City Sweden

The waste-fired Högdalenverket is one of Stockholm’s largest combined heat and power plants, providing environmentally friendly heat and electricity to large parts of southern Stockholm. The advantag…

smartcitysweden.com

ESMA’s partner MARTIN GmbH general contractor when the Högdalen plant is rebuilt and improved - ESMA

esma.se

Sweden also uses Ikea waste....

Sweden’s Largest Biofuel Heat and Power Plant Is Fossil-Free Energy Hot Spot | News - Smart City Sweden

The combined heat and power plant at Värtahamnen, also known as or KVV8, was inaugurated in 2016 and produces heat and electricity through the combustion of solid biomass, consisting mainly of residu…

smartcitysweden.com

...

The Swedes are both progressive AND conservative. They advance cautiously but they advance.

 

[ytz]

@ytz - I am happy to meet you half way. I am all for making things more efficient. The basic components of the Hybrid vehicles exist in the conventional ICE vehicle. The difference is that the emphasis is on a different syllable.

ICE and HEV - battery
ICE and HEV - electric motor (starter vs drive)
ICE and HEV - generator
ICE and HEV - ICE
ICE and HEV - fuel system
ICE and HEV - drive train

The change is evolutionary, not revolutionary.

I don't see the debate here. A lot of people think exactly one solution will win. That's just recency bias because we're all used to a specific model of largely one solution for consumers (petrol) and a similarly different solution for commercial sector (diesel). That's not how the future will unfold though. It'll be a spectrum with pure combustion of pure liquid fuels at one end. And pure batteries at the other. Some hybrid setup in the middle. Exact setup will depend on application and economy with movement over time towards EVs as batteries get cheaper. A simple rhetorical to think this through. If an electric RAV4 and a pure gas RAV4 were the exact same price (without subsidies), what would respective sales shares be? Battery price trends say this might go from hypothetical to a real question around 2030-2032.

But that's looking at the general case. Military applications, as we're discussing here are a whole different ballgame. The consideration isn't economic, it's mission suitability. The value of electrification (more specifically hybridization....nobody is really proposing pure electrics here) there is signature reduction enabling functionality like silent overwatch. Having a small buggy that can run sensors without running an engine and can mount an ATGM is a pretty useful asset. If you're using it to patrol MSRs, then obviously it's not great. But that's not appropriate use of such a system either.

 

[Kirkhill]

I don't see the debate here. A lot of people think exactly one solution will win. That's just recency bias because we're all used to a specific model of largely one solution for consumers (petrol) and a similarly different solution for commercial sector (diesel). That's not how the future will unfold though. It'll be a spectrum with pure combustion of pure liquid fuels at one end. And pure batteries at the other. Some hybrid setup in the middle. Exact setup will depend on application and economy with movement over time towards EVs as batteries get cheaper. A simple rhetorical to think this through. If an electric RAV4 and a pure gas RAV4 were the exact same price (without subsidies), what would respective sales shares be? Battery price trends say this might go from hypothetical to a real question around 2030-2032.

But that's looking at the general case. Military applications, as we're discussing here are a whole different ballgame. The consideration isn't economic, it's mission suitability. The value of electrification (more specifically hybridization....nobody is really proposing pure electrics here) there is signature reduction enabling functionality like silent overwatch. Having a small buggy that can run sensors without running an engine and can mount an ATGM is a pretty useful asset. If you're using it to patrol MSRs, then obviously it's not great. But that's not appropriate use of such a system either.

Same page.

 

[Brad Sallows]

vehicle's range to 7,000km

"There's lots of space on board for fuel. That gives us a 4,000-mile or 7,000km potential range."

Well, f*ck. I can guess the "range" of my car would be a lot more than 600km if I chose to fill it with jerrycans of fuel. I wonder how much of that "lots of space" would get filled with other necessities for living and fighting.

 

[Kirkhill]

"There's lots of space on board for fuel. That gives us a 4,000-mile or 7,000km potential range."

Well, f*ck. I can guess the "range" of my car would be a lot more than 600km if I chose to fill it with jerrycans of fuel. I wonder how much of that "lots of space" would get filled with other necessities for living and fighting.

I suppose that depends on how strong the springs are.

 

[ytz]

One option I wish more OEMs embraced instead of hybrids were range extenders. The Chinese OEMs are seeming to do this more. The benefit of hybridization is the additional torque and shaft power. The downside is a larger engine, more complex transmission, etc. It's very easy, on the other hand to package a small generator onboard to simply charge the battery to boost range.

Ram is going to do this on the new Rancharger.

So is Volkswagen on the new Scouts:

Scout Motors' range extender to take its EVs up to 804 km

The extender will be a non-turbo four-cylinder, likely sourced from one of the Volkswagen Group brands

driving.ca

Less maintenance and fuel consumption than hybrids. Same performance and ease of charging as an EV. Hopefully this configuration catches on more.

 

[ytz]

BYD is pledging to deploy Solid State Batteries (SSBs) on their high end models by 2027 and widespread across their lineup by 2030. If true, it'll be a bit of a gamechanger. These batteries will allow 10% to 80% charge in about 10 mins. 300-400 km range in enough time to hit the bathroom and get a coffee. This will help get more marketshare against legacy OEMs.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

BYD is pledging to deploy Solid State Batteries (SSBs) on their high end models by 2027 and widespread across their lineup by 2030. If true, it'll be a bit of a gamechanger. These batteries will allow 10% to 80% charge in about 10 mins. 300-400 km range in enough time to hit the bathroom and get a coffee. This will help get more marketshare against legacy OEMs.

Even though BYD is their top of the line stuff. I would not have a lot of trust in their longevity and resale value.

Here is the cost of replacing the battery if needed

Examples of hybrid battery replacement costs by manufacturer:

• Toyota Prius V: $3,939
• Toyota Prius C: $3,807
• Lexus RX 400h: $4,847
• Lexus CT 200h: $2,588
• Honda Civic: $3,200
• Mercedes $2,000-8,000
• Landrover I have seen 21,000 Pounds Sterling quoted

 

[captloadie]

To be honest, I'm surprised that the costs are that low, assuming those are for the pack only, and not removal/installation.. Buying a crate engine for an ICE would be similar in price, for a smaller 4 cylinder. Having only watched a few youtube videos on the subject, I would also expect that the labour involved would be less for a pack swap, if you can find qualified techs to do it.

 

[ytz]

To be honest, I'm surprised that the costs are that low,

Hybrid battery packs are a lot smaller than full battery packs. And as batteries get cheaper, replacement packs are coming down down in price.

Even though BYD is their top of the line stuff. I would not have a lot of trust in their longevity and resale value.

I'm not sure what statistics you are basing that on. But they are one of world'a largest battery makers. And they were making batteries before they were making cars. It's highly likely you've had some electronics in your home, with a BYD battery at some point.

Also, what do these hybrid battery packs have to do with BYD? Be specific.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Hybrid battery packs are a lot smaller than full battery packs. And as batteries get cheaper, replacement packs are coming down down in price.



I'm not sure what statistics you are basing that on. But they are one of world'a largest battery makers. And they were making batteries before they were making cars. It's highly likely you've had some electronics in your home, with a BYD battery at some point.

Also, what do these hybrid battery packs have to do with BYD? Be specific.

I have concerns about QC in Chinese cars, the CCP is draconian in suppressing any news of problems of these vehicles, but it does leak out. One of the things quoted by Chinese owners is that Chinese cars have more features and look more upscale than Tesla, but the materials are not as good and fail quickly. Also having watched a video recently of a disassembly of a BYD by professionals, pointed out some some interesting design issues which will likley bite the owner in the not so distance future.

 

[ytz]

I have concerns about QC in Chinese cars, the CCP is draconian in suppressing any news of problems of these vehicles, but it does leak out. One of the things quoted by Chinese owners is that Chinese cars have more features and look more upscale than Tesla, but the materials are not as good and fail quickly. Also having watched a video recently of a disassembly of a BYD by professionals, pointed out some some interesting design issues which will likley bite the owner in the not so distance future.

All legitimate concerns. But none of that is evidence of BYD having battery degradation or performance concerns worse than any other brand. If you've got evidence of that put it up.

Indeed, Tesla and several other automakers buy batteries from BYD, specifically because of their reputation. And they've happily demoed how much safer their Blade battery design compare to the prismatic that most legacy OEMs use:

Finally, like I said before, you not liking EVs or a certain brand doesn't make a lick of difference. And nobody's understanding of the subject is served by reactionary denialism.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Finally, like I said before, you not liking EVs or a certain brand doesn't make a lick of difference. And nobody's understanding of the subject is served by reactionary denialism.

Neither our we served by fanatical promotion of a relativity immature technology (on a large scale) with people being forced to buy them, by politicians and regulators that don't have a technical clue of the challenges that come with them. Plus there are geopolitical reasons China is dumping EV's onto everyone's markets, they hope to destroy domestic manufacturing.

 

[ytz]

Plus there are geopolitical reasons China is dumping EV's onto everyone's markets, they hope to destroy domestic manufacturing.

And you should understand why countries are letting those products in. You're not going to be able to understand that if you can't get past your biases.