High Speed Train Coming?-split from boosting Canada’s military spending"

[YZT580]

During prorogation I thought that government was in a caretaker mode and wasn't supposed to commit to any major expenditures. Am I wrong? And to get back on topic, that amount of cash would purchase another AOR or make a hefty downpayment on 2

 

[rmc_wannabe]

During prorogation I thought that government was in a caretaker mode and wasn't supposed to commit to any major expenditures. Am I wrong?

Depends if the project was listed under the previous Budget or Throne Speech.

If theyre just announcing the project start and no new money is to be committed, it's well within the caretaker convention.

My thoughts are this was a soft lob to help whomever is in the LPC chair when the election starts.

 

[MacNav63]

During prorogation I thought that government was in a caretaker mode and wasn't supposed to commit to any major expenditures. Am I wrong?

"Caretaker" mode exists in Ontario during elections, ostensibly to protect the civil service from being dragged into political gamesmanship. Although, as we're seeing right now, it's not entirely clear what limits actually apply to the sitting government. I don't believe the concept exists either federally or in other provinces.

Typically, progrogation is used in the life of a parliament to allow for a new Speech from the Throne and to reset the government agenda mid-term. Recently we've seen examples both here and the UK where it's been used as a blatant tool to avoid parliament completely.

That being said, it doesn't limit the government's ability to govern, other than when it comes to any taxing and spending not already accounted for in the current budget. In that case, the government can announce spending plans but needs parliament still to approve budgets.

 

[YZT580]

"Caretaker" mode exists in Ontario during elections, ostensibly to protect the civil service from being dragged into political gamesmanship. Although, as we're seeing right now, it's not entirely clear what limits actually apply to the sitting government. I don't believe the concept exists either federally or in other provinces.

Typically, progrogation is used in the life of a parliament to allow for a new Speech from the Throne and to reset the government agenda mid-term. Recently we've seen examples both here and the UK where it's been used as a blatant tool to avoid parliament completely.

That being said, it doesn't limit the government's ability to govern, other than when it comes to any taxing and spending not already accounted for in the current budget. In that case, the government can announce spending plans but needs parliament still to approve budgets.

Thanks, one more question: would this HSR plan would require parliamentary approval?

 

[MacNav63]

"Caretaker" mode exists in Ontario during elections, ostensibly to protect the civil service from being dragged into political gamesmanship. Although, as we're seeing right now, it's not entirely clear what limits actually apply to the sitting government. I don't believe the concept exists either federally or in other provinces.

Typically, progrogation is used in the life of a parliament to allow for a new Speech from the Throne and to reset the government agenda mid-term. Recently we've seen examples both here and the UK where it's been used as a blatant tool to avoid parliament completely.

That being said, it doesn't limit the government's ability to govern, other than when it comes to any taxing and spending not already accounted for in the current budget. In that case, the government can announce spending plans but needs parliament still to approve budgets.

Thanks, one more question: would this HSR plan would require parliamentary approval?

To budget the money for it yes. And picking up on @rmc_wannabe and clarify my own response, to the extent that there exists a convention about a party in power not using the tools of government to make announcements, that only really applies during the period of an election and it is a "convention." Only Ontario has formalized it to my knowledge.

 

[QV]

I'm not sure why you think this is an either/or proposition? More than one thing can be built at a time.



Edmonton-Calgary is the ideal distance for HSR. The problem there is a lack of population. We're talking about two sprawling metros of 1.5M each. That's not enough demand to pay for something like that. Ideally, they'd build some kind of train line and then do the expensive parts, like grade separation and electrification over time as population grows.

If you want to understand how transport planners estimate level of demand for things like this, a basic concept is the gravity model. Rough idea, multiply the populations of two catchments together and divide by square of the distance between them. This is done for every station combination on the line and added up. The basic idea is that the closer two cities are, the more likely people between them are to interact. And of course the more people, the more the interactions.



SNCF is literally the lead rail developer in the winning consortium of this project.

It's not either/or. Its what comes first. What is a priority. What will help alleviate this "existential threat" everyone is on about. My guess is energy exports over a passenger rail line with dubious benefits.

No person should be surprised this is what the LPC have pushed over other far more important matters that will run in the billions.

 

[MacNav63]

It's not either/or. Its what comes first. What is a priority. What will help alleviate this "existential threat" everyone is on about. My guess is energy exports over a passenger rail line with dubious benefits.

No person should be surprised this is what the LPC have pushed over other far more important matters that will run in the billions.

HSR will never happen, at least not in my lifetime. Not that it shouldn't. Certainly in the corridor it could make a lot of sense, especially from an environmental point of view (it will always need a government subsidy...I think that's true even with the most successful HSR projects).

The main reason it won't happen I think some have already started discussing. Where to put it. It needs its own dedicated right of way and absolutely no level crossings. And there can only be a limited number of stations otherwise it can never achieve true high speed. Even the high frequency project that VIA has been pushing the last couple of years was going to come face to face with the reality of
having to find a separate right of way from the CN mainline in the face of likely tons of local opposition, especially in communities where the train won't stop.

There is an old CN rail bed runs by my village in rural Ottawa. It was converted into a multi-use trail by Ottawa and Prescott-Russell. CN still owns it though. Just try telling all the people that use it, and live beside it that the rails are coming back. Not to mention it was a single track and would have to be doubled.

Nope, this is pure political theatre meant to last just until election day. It's no coincidence that the announcement was made in Montreal and all the companies involved are QC-based. Quebec is going to be a major battleground in the coming election. The Liberals can't afford to lose a single seat there if they are going to have any hope of winning.

 

[RangerRay]

SNCF is literally the lead rail developer in the winning consortium of this project.

According to the author of the piece, the way the project is structured is a recipe for disaster regardless of SNCF’s involvement. Too many cooks. He thinks this project will emulate American HSR boondoggles rather than a more efficient European or Japanese models.

He also mentioned poor timing given it’s late in a government’s mandate being announced by a lame-duck PM. Not ideal.

 

[quadrapiper]

Depends if the project was listed under the previous Budget or Throne Speech.

If theyre just announcing the project start and no new money is to be committed, it's well within the caretaker convention.

My thoughts are this was a soft lob to help whomever is in the LPC chair when the election starts.

It would be too much to hope for, specific details of project admin aside, if more "public good" projects of this nature could reliably survive changes of government.

 

[KevinB]

Maybe mods could split the Highish Speed Rail that has absolutely fucking nothing to do with the DND/CAF Budget off to another thread.

 

[dapaterson]

A bit of forethought, and a new HSR right of way might also provide a right of way for other things...

 

[brihard]

During prorogation I thought that government was in a caretaker mode and wasn't supposed to commit to any major expenditures. Am I wrong? And to get back on topic, that amount of cash would purchase another AOR or make a hefty downpayment on 2

Nope. Caretaker applies when Parliament is dissolved pending an election, not during prorogation or recess.

 

[OldSolduer]

The main reason it won't happen I think some have already started discussing. Where to put it. It needs its own dedicated right of way and absolutely no level crossings. And there can only be a limited number of stations otherwise it can never achieve true high speed. Even the high frequency project that VIA has been pushing the last couple of years was going to come face to face with the reality of
having to find a separate right of way from the CN mainline in the face of likely tons of local opposition, especially in communities where the train won't stop.

Highlights - that is a very important consideration. In fact your points all make sense.

 

[lenaitch]

on the south side where all the villages are up to Perth. Then it followed Cavanaugh Rd. through Stittsville and after that, don't know. There is one bridge left near Ashton but it doesn't cross anything anymore. Getting through them would be a very expensive proposition. I don't think that they can use level crossings with high speed so there would have to be a graded crossing about every 15 km or so along the entire route

Yes. South side (varying distances) from Havelock to Glen Tay (Perth) then, as I recall, following to existing CPKC to Smiths Falls. from Smiths Falls to Ottawa it is an active VIA route. In the cottage-y areas, a lot of the roads are dead-ends so no option to just drive further to another road for access.

On another forum, somebody smarter than I did a track-profile diagram that showed for the original proposal for high frequency (not speed), much of the abandoned alignment was do-able for reasonable speeds and average travel times. A number of the slower curves could be improved with superelevation (banking). I haven't seen a similar analysis for high speed but imagine very little would be suitable.

A lot of the communities got giggly when they thought they would be getting a station so having the line reactivated was seen as an acceptable cost. They became less thrilled when they realized the train wouldn't be stopping. Functionally, you can't have a 300 kph train tear through the middle of a town.

I haven't seen an analysis of proposed travel times between cities that would help indicate average speeds. For any given slow speed area, you need higher speed areas to make up the difference.

If this thing survives at all, I suspect it will be watered down. Once the numbers start coming out, I think they will be eye-watering.

 

[childs56]

So do I understand this correctly.
$3.9billion for the first phase. Plus the $371.8 From 2024 allocated for the first design phase.
Unknown cost of the overall project.

I am not sure we can actually afford this.

I would hope the project would be funded entirely by Ontario and Quebec taxes only. Similar to Vancouvers extra gas tax.

 

[ytz]

According to the author of the piece, the way the project is structured is a recipe for disaster regardless of SNCF’s involvement. Too many cooks. He thinks this project will emulate American HSR boondoggles rather than a more efficient European or Japanese models.

Uggh. It's the typical leftist critique. Pretty close to what the NDP came out and said. Basically, whining that the private sector is too involved. Even complaining that Alto doesn't have enough expertise in house. But that is exactly why foreign firms like SNCF were brought in. And so weird to me that he talks about how SNCF is great and then says they don't have the right structure when 3 of the companies in that consortium are SNCF entities (SNCF Voyageurs, Keolis, Systra) in the consortium. His only legitimate critique to me is this one:

He also mentioned poor timing given it’s late in a government’s mandate being announced by a lame-duck PM. Not ideal.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

So I take this new train to Quebec City but then get held hostage by rental car companies if I want to leave the station area?
No thanks, I'll drive....

 

[FSTO]

We are doing it wrong.

Canada Shouldn’t Build High-Speed Rail

It is still the time in this fair land for that railroad not to run

open.substack.com

 

[Genetk44]

Will never be completed even if it were ever to be started….which it won’t be.

 

[mariomike]

Toronto, Peterborough, Ottawa, Montréal, Laval, Trois-Rivières, and Quebec City.

Used to ride the Toronto - Peterborough - Havelock VIA Rail Budd car. Nice if PTBO gets passenger rail service back. Especially if it is HSR.

Now I take the #88 Go bus Oshawa - Peterborough direct non-stop.

From Oshawa VIA/GO station, passengers can take the GO train direct ( no transfer at Union ) to Niagara Falls.

Your NDI 75 is coded into your PRESTO card. So, as of March 1, you can ride the entire GO system ( 8 passenger rail lines, and 38 GO bus routes ) including the Union-Pearson ( UP ) Express, anytime for free.

Of course, your NDI 75 also gets you a 25% discount off the best available fares throughout the year on VIA Rail.

I might be taking Air Canada on my next Ottawa trip now that there is an LRT to the airport. Or, maybe just stick with VIA.

This is HSR. It's being reported as 300kmh which is firmly high speed.

Wow.

My father ran engines on the Montreal VIA run. HSR would be a big improvement.

Loved riding HSR in Japan. Hopefully, one day, Canada will have it too.